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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by accfanfrom1970 View Post
    Was hoping to the Cards. Duke and the Cards.
    You and me both.

    Not sure who the Cards will try to sign now …

  2. #22
    The owners declared a lockout. No more player-movement activity until there is a new CBA, which is likely going to take a while.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    You and me both.

    Not sure who the Cards will try to sign now …
    Don't you already have a ton of starting pitchers? Flaherty, Mikolas, Hudson, Wainwright, Matz, Kim, and Oviedo. Only so many spots in a 5-man rotation. I don't think the Cardinals were really in the market for Stroman once they signed Matz, and I doubt they are in the market for any more starting pitchers moving forward.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Don't you already have a ton of starting pitchers? Flaherty, Mikolas, Hudson, Wainwright, Matz, Kim, and Oviedo. Only so many spots in a 5-man rotation. I don't think the Cardinals were really in the market for Stroman once they signed Matz, and I doubt they are in the market for any more starting pitchers moving forward.
    Mikolas has been injured most of the last two years, missed the Covid year totally and pitched 40+ innings last year with an era over 4.
    Kim is a free agent.
    Oviedo is 0-8 for his career and an era over 5.
    Hudson is a year removed from Tommy John surgery.
    Flaherty was injured last year. pitched 78 innings.
    Wainwright was a revelation but at 40 can he replicate last year? Cardinal fans certainly hope so.

    Can never have enough pitching.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by accfanfrom1970 View Post
    Mikolas has been injured most of the last two years, missed the Covid year totally and pitched 40+ innings last year with an era over 4.
    Kim is a free agent.
    Oviedo is 0-8 for his career and an era over 5.
    Hudson is a year removed from Tommy John surgery.
    Flaherty was injured last year. pitched 78 innings.
    Wainwright was a revelation but at 40 can he replicate last year? Cardinal fans certainly hope so.

    Can never have enough pitching.
    Hudson and Flaherty are both healthy now though, and they are in the rotation when healthy. You aren't demoting those guys. Wainwright is under a decent contract for next year. Mikolas is under a decent contract for two more years. Matz is now under a decent contract for 4 more years. I missed that Kim was let go this offseason, but that's still 5 starters, not including Oviedo Liberatore (who should be MLB ready), Thompson (who struggled last year but may be ready at some point in 2022), Rondon, Woodford. There just isn't a rotation spot for another expensive starter.

    They need bullpen arms, which you'll get some back like Hicks. But I don't see another free agent starter being added. At least not a guy who you pay big bucks for to be a starter. Maybe they take on a reclamation project and have him compete with one of your back-end starters. But given that they'll now be paying for Arenado's salary, I don't think another big-dollar contract is going to be allocated to a starting pitcher.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Hudson and Flaherty are both healthy now though, and they are in the rotation when healthy. You aren't demoting those guys. Wainwright is under a decent contract for next year. Mikolas is under a decent contract for two more years. Matz is now under a decent contract for 4 more years. I missed that Kim was let go this offseason, but that's still 5 starters, not including Oviedo Liberatore (who should be MLB ready), Thompson (who struggled last year but may be ready at some point in 2022), Rondon, Woodford. There just isn't a rotation spot for another expensive starter.

    They need bullpen arms, which you'll get some back like Hicks. But I don't see another free agent starter being added. At least not a guy who you pay big bucks for to be a starter. Maybe they take on a reclamation project and have him compete with one of your back-end starters. But given that they'll now be paying for Arenado's salary, I don't think another big-dollar contract is going to be allocated to a starting pitcher.
    Who knows now with the lockout. But if there is money to be spent it will be on pitching. They’ve settled on SS, no outfielders. Another starter cements they’re going for it.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham

    Hall of Fame

    Not sure if this is the right place for this but it is as good as any. The Hall of Fame named six new members: Buck O'Neil, Minnie Minoso, Bud Fowler, Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat.

    Hall of Fame debates used to be a favorite past time. Now I think very few people take the Hall of Fame very seriously. And these additions continue that trend. I am OK with O'Neil. No strong opinion on Minoso, Fowler and Hodges (I was raised by a Brooklyn Dodgers fan and two Mets fans so I am biased about Hodges).

    The two I have the biggest issue with are Oliva and Kaat. Their names were on the ballot in relatively recent times. They had their chance. What has changed about them? The "revisionist history" committees as I like to call them should be used sparingly - they are used way too much.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ball-hall-fame

  8. #28
    I never knew, until I looked him up today, that Minoso is spelled and pronounced with a tilde on the 'n'. I had always heard it pronounced "Mih-noh-soh" in the 60s and later.

    I always thought Oliva was Hall-worthy. If he had played in a major market, he would have been inducted 30 years ago.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Forest Hills, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Not sure if this is the right place for this but it is as good as any. The Hall of Fame named six new members: Buck O'Neil, Minnie Minoso, Bud Fowler, Gil Hodges, Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat.

    Hall of Fame debates used to be a favorite past time. Now I think very few people take the Hall of Fame very seriously. And these additions continue that trend. I am OK with O'Neil. No strong opinion on Minoso, Fowler and Hodges (I was raised by a Brooklyn Dodgers fan and two Mets fans so I am biased about Hodges).

    The two I have the biggest issue with are Oliva and Kaat. Their names were on the ballot in relatively recent times. They had their chance. What has changed about them? The "revisionist history" committees as I like to call them should be used sparingly - they are used way too much.

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ball-hall-fame
    Very pleased with Gil's admission into the hall. About time.

    Re Kaat and Oliva (and others of that ilk) - are we now in the baseball version of participation trophies - for good, not great players who have timed out? Dilutes the product/perception even more (if, as you note, anyone actually cares)

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by duke74 View Post
    Very pleased with Gil's admission into the hall. About time.

    Re Kaat and Oliva (and others of that ilk) - are we now in the baseball version of participation trophies - for good, not great players who have timed out? Dilutes the product/perception even more (if, as you note, anyone actually cares)
    I could not disagree with you more. I thought that Kaat and Oliva were two of the most deserving players who weren't in. And I'm not a Twins fan.

    I'm glad that they finally got Buck O'Neil in, although it would have been better if they had done it in his lifetime. Remember a number of years ago they created a special commission to put deserving Negro League players in, and they put in some 15 or 20 people, but not O'Neil.

  11. #31
    Put me in the pro-Kaat camp.

    He was a pretty good announcer as well.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by acdevil View Post
    Put me in the pro-Kaat camp.

    He was a pretty good announcer as well.
    I am a lifelong fan of the Yankees. Before you hate on me, let me tell you two things. First, my dad was the son of a poor man in Armonk, NY, and as a boy, Dad was a caddie at the Round Hill Country Club, where the Babe played golf. Babe would ask for my dad to caddie, because he could (at the age of 11 or so) could find golf balls in the woods and weeds that other caddies couldn't. Naturally, I have been a Yankees fan all my life. (That came from me as much as from Dad's Mom, who got to be as big a fan from listening to the radio broadcasts, as from Dad himself. Although Dad would regale his sons with stories about his friend Babe Ruth, especially the time he got to caddie for two ballplayers in the same round, Ruth and Gehrig.)

    Anyway, Jim Kaat was a Yankees' broadcaster for a quite a while. One of the best ever, and I grew up listening to Mel Allen and Red Barber and, after we landed in St. Louis, Jack Buck. Kaat was right up there with them. And he is still broadcasting, on a limited basis.

    As a pitcher, Kaat had a complete game win (score 5-1) against the Dodgers in the 1965 World Series (he lost two other starts, including game 7 to Koufax). Kaat won, I think, 16 Gold Gloves.

    Jim Kaat is more worthy of his HOF stature than scads of others who are already there.

    I'll close with this. Kaat's first MLB season was with the Washington Senators, when Dwight D. Eisenhower was President. His last MLB pitch was with the 1983 Cardinals. In the Reagan administration. (Which includes a WS ring with Whitey Herzog's 1982 World Series Champion St. Louis Cardinals.)

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    When anyone thinks of the truly great players, does Jim Kaat come to mind? Really?

    He played pretty well for an awfully long time, I'll give him that, but he belongs in the Hall of the Good. Not the Hall of Fame.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    When anyone thinks of the truly great players, does Jim Kaat come to mind? Really?

    He played pretty well for an awfully long time, I'll give him that, but he belongs in the Hall of the Good. Not the Hall of Fame.
    Yeah, I'd rate the three selections in order as:
    Oliva (great player for a shorter period of time)
    Hodges (very good player for a longer period of time)
    Kaat (pretty good player for a long time)

    But I'd say none of them really should be in the Hall of Fame. For reference, Anthony Rizzo has almost as many career WAR as Gil Hodges and Oliva (he'll probably end up in the same neighborhood as their career WAR totals), and even as a Cubs fan I don't see Rizzo as a Hall of Famer.

    Kaat averaged just 2.2 WAR per season, and even if you ignore the tail end of his career (he pitched until he was 44, no doubt trying to reach 300 wins), he had almost as many seasons below average (6) as he did above average (8).

    Are there worse players in the MLB Hall of Fame? Sure. Harold Baines is in, for crying out loud. But these selections just speak to the falling standards of the Hall of Fame, in my opinion.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hudson Valley
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    When anyone thinks of the truly great players, does Jim Kaat come to mind? Really?

    He played pretty well for an awfully long time, I'll give him that, but he belongs in the Hall of the Good. Not the Hall of Fame.
    I think Katt appreciates this. He sounded rather sheepish about it in a NY Times article (probably behind a paywall).
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/05/s...l-of-fame.html

    The quote I was thinking of is:
    “There’s got to be degrees of the Hall of Fame,” Kaat said. “I think they probably have a back row for me and I’ll wave to those guys up there. But it is pretty awesome to think of. I know when my career ended, Bowie Kuhn had told me it was the longest career for a pitcher in history.”

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Hall of Fame debates used to be a favorite past time.
    Speaking of, not so much a debate (yet), but prognostication - Ryan Thibodaux is, as always, tracking publicly revealed ballots, and through 123 ballots (bit less than 1/3 of the total), Bonds and Clemens are each +1 vote from last year, so not as much of a trend as they'll need overall to get in, and Schilling is down 13, which is certainly not encouraging from him, though presumably he'll wear it as a badge of honor. All 3 are in their final year of eligibility until the veterans committee takes up their cases. Rolen is +7, which will be a nice jump but still leave him short if he gains votes at a similar rate on the remaining ballots. He's got plenty of time left on the ballot.

    https://twitter.com/NotMrTibbs/statu...29914414538752

    Big Papi is slightly ahead of Bonds and Clemens, which based on how early public votes typically compare to the overall vote, projects to very close to 75% for him.

    http://www.bbhoftracker.com/2021/12/...d-leaderboard/
    Demented and sad, but social, right?

  17. #37
    Ken Rosenthal canned by MLB network. That's a bummer.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by weezie View Post
    Ken Rosenthal canned by MLB network. That's a bummer.
    He was actually canned at MLB Network for making comments critical of ownership (MLB Network is owned by MLB owners).

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    He was actually canned at MLB Network for making comments critical of ownership (MLB Network is owned by MLB owners).
    Rosenthal was probably pulling his punches while employed by MLB Network. Wait til they read what he has to write now! He's still employed by The Athletic. I'm getting the popcorn ready.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Speaking of, not so much a debate (yet), but prognostication - Ryan Thibodaux is, as always, tracking publicly revealed ballots, and through 123 ballots (bit less than 1/3 of the total), Bonds and Clemens are each +1 vote from last year, so not as much of a trend as they'll need overall to get in, and Schilling is down 13, which is certainly not encouraging from him, though presumably he'll wear it as a badge of honor. All 3 are in their final year of eligibility until the veterans committee takes up their cases. Rolen is +7, which will be a nice jump but still leave him short if he gains votes at a similar rate on the remaining ballots. He's got plenty of time left on the ballot.

    https://twitter.com/NotMrTibbs/statu...29914414538752

    Big Papi is slightly ahead of Bonds and Clemens, which based on how early public votes typically compare to the overall vote, projects to very close to 75% for him.

    http://www.bbhoftracker.com/2021/12/...d-leaderboard/
    Anything Ketchup Sock says is a badge of honor is really a badge of shame.

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