Football Coaching Carousel 2021-22

[Daddylawman]

I read through this thread and think there are a lot of good points being made, but if I may offer another thought. I am aware there are differences that can easily be pointed out, but for the parameters of this discussion I'd look more to South Carolina than UCONN. They are not a top tier team, but they are a P5 team. They went out and hired a young enthusiastic coach with recruiting experience and connections, who has injected enthusiasm in their program for 2.75 million/year.

I think there are several top assistants whose names we might not know, but who recruits will know, because these are the guys making the early contacts. I obviously don't know who would come, but Tony Elliott is at Clemson; Marcus Freedman at ND; Brian Niedermeyer is at Tennessee. If you want a name, Bill O'Brien is at Alabama and would love to make noise as a HC again.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Coach Kara has reinvigorated the fan base in a way that would be very rare for a new coach to do without prior experience, and for me that is a home run. Hopefully in the end it will be a grand slam.

If a new football coach can do the same for the football fans, I'll be very, very happy.

I understand that, but from an AD's standpoint...or judging how an AD might fare in making the hires, there's no comparison at all.

WBB is a much easier job at Duke, therefore a much more attractive job at Duke relative to the FB job at Duke, and far less important in the scheme of things than the FB job at any school, and a far smaller budget job than FB coach. To use a tortured analogy, nailing the WBB opening is like hitting a 15 footer. Swishing the FB hire is like a full court heave.

[OldPhiKap]

I presume that Duke hired a competent AD.

I also presume that the possibility of a hot coaching seat this season was discussed when that AD was hired just a few months ago.

Therefore, my presumption is that things will be handled well (we will have a pep I sing new coach next year, and Cut will be offered the opportunity to resign and to take a job on the fundraising side if he wants). Alternatively, if there is no change, I presume it is because those marching order$ were clear from the time of the AD hire.

I may be proven wrong, but my default is towards the positive not the negative here.

[Acymetric]

we will have a pep I sing new coach next year

I beg your pardon?

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I understand that, but from an AD's standpoint...or judging how an AD might fare in making the hires, there's no comparison at all.

WBB is a much easier job at Duke, therefore a much more attractive job at Duke relative to the FB job at Duke, and far less important in the scheme of things than the FB job at any school, and a far smaller budget job than FB coach. To use a tortured analogy, nailing the WBB opening is like hitting a 15 footer. Swishing the FB hire is like a full court heave.

Also, not to be negative Nancy, but it is still really early to evaluate Coach Lawson. It seemed like a great hire and there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm around it, which is great. Given the fact pattern at the time of her hiring, it generally seemed like a good move. I hope she is successful. But so far she is 4-1 as Duke's head coach, so it is too soon to tell.

There were definitely question marks around her hiring - she has zero collegiate coaching experience and one year of NBA assistant head coaching experience, so it remains to be seen how that translates. If anyone can do it, she is likely the person to do so, but there are no guarantees.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I read through this thread and think there are a lot of good points being made, but if I may offer another thought. I am aware there are differences that can easily be pointed out, but for the parameters of this discussion I'd look more to South Carolina than UCONN. They are not a top tier team, but they are a P5 team. They went out and hired a young enthusiastic coach with recruiting experience and connections, who has injected enthusiasm in their program for 2.75 million/year.

I think there are several top assistants whose names we might not know, but who recruits will know, because these are the guys making the early contacts. I obviously don't know who would come, but Tony Elliott is at Clemson; Marcus Freedman at ND; Brian Niedermeyer is at Tennessee. If you want a name, Bill O'Brien is at Alabama and would love to make noise as a HC again.

SC has a MUCH bigger stadium, a history of winning, a massive fanbase, and plays in a far more competitive conference.

I feel Duke/SC is comparing apples to devil's food cake.

[Indoor66]

Also, not to be negative Nancy, but it is still really early to evaluate Coach Lawson. It seemed like a great hire and there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm around it, which is great. Given the fact pattern at the time of her hiring, it generally seemed like a good move. I hope she is successful. But so far she is 4-1 as Duke's head coach, so it is too soon to tell.

There were definitely question marks around her hiring - she has zero collegiate coaching experience and one year of NBA assistant head coaching experience, so it remains to be seen how that translates. If anyone can do it, she is likely the person to do so, but there are no guarantees.

I agree. I believe that greatness is achieved by achievement, not anticipation. We have an unproven womens BB coach an an unproven AD. Fairness to them demands that they be permitted to be judged on their own performance, not wishes or expectations of performance.

[sagegrouse]

SC has a MUCH bigger stadium, a history of winning, a massive fanbase, and plays in a far more competitive conference.

I feel Duke/SC is comparing apples to devil's food cake.

Gamecock faithful might question "history of winning." When was that, exactly?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I understand that, but from an AD's standpoint...or judging how an AD might fare in making the hires, there's no comparison at all.

WBB is a much easier job at Duke, therefore a much more attractive job at Duke relative to the FB job at Duke, and far less important in the scheme of things than the FB job at any school, and a far smaller budget job than FB coach. To use a tortured analogy, nailing the WBB opening is like hitting a 15 footer. Swishing the FB hire is like a full court heave.

Nina doesn't have to swish for the FB job, she just needs to hit the shot, even if it banks in and bounces around the rim a few times. She can do that without breaking the bank.

[CameronBornAndBred]

SC has a MUCH bigger stadium, a history of winning, a massive fanbase, and plays in a far more competitive conference.

And a much bigger budget. And yet they still got that guy to show up for "just" 2.75M.

Duke can and possibly will do it for less.

[Phredd3]

Also, not to be negative Nancy, but it is still really early to evaluate Coach Lawson. It seemed like a great hire and there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm around it, which is great. Given the fact pattern at the time of her hiring, it generally seemed like a good move. I hope she is successful. But so far she is 4-1 as Duke's head coach, so it is too soon to tell.

There were definitely question marks around her hiring - she has zero collegiate coaching experience and one year of NBA assistant head coaching experience, so it remains to be seen how that translates. If anyone can do it, she is likely the person to do so, but there are no guarantees.

I agree with all of this, except to add that the early returns have looked really good. We stomped our first "for real" opponent, beating them 95-39 (notably better than our exhibition game against a Division II opponent). Granted, that was still lower tier competition, but the team looked very good on both sides of the ball, and quite a few of the many incoming transfers have looked like above-average, if not top-tier, performers. A bad team doesn't generally put a 56-point beat down on anyone. I'm confident we have a good team at the moment. The question is how good and for how long.

So yes, the jury is not completely in, yet, and we haven't been tested against a really good team, but so far the results have looked very, very positive, both on the court and in the stands.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

And a much bigger budget. And yet they still got that guy to show up for "just" 2.75M.

Duke can and possibly will do it for less.

I see it the other way around. Because Duke has a smaller fanbase, budget, and facilities, they will need to offer substantially more for an equivalent coach.

[sagegrouse]

I see it the other way around. Because Duke has a smaller fanbase, budget, and facilities, they will need to offer substantially more for an equivalent coach.

Not having a huge in-state base of alumni or fans should knock a million per year out of the next Duke coach's salary vs. schools that have both. Much more likely to coach for many seasons.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I see it the other way around. Because Duke has a smaller fanbase, budget, and facilities, they will need to offer substantially more for an equivalent coach.

So you're saying that a high profile job is worth less than coaching for a team that 1/5th of the fans say the school should just give up on, that everyone points to as being a dead-end position, that plays in a stadium that is consistently used by folks here as a reason why recruits will never be attracted to?

I never took a class in economics, but I'm guessing that chapter in marketplace value doesn't show up in any text books.


Edit...by your same reasoning, if Jon Scheyer were to get hit by a truck this season, then Duke would be able to hire the next coach for a very cheap price, because simply having the job is good enough.

[Acymetric]

So you're saying that a high profile job is worth less than coaching for a team that 1/5th of the fans say the school should just give up on, that everyone points to as being a dead-end position, that plays in a stadium that is consistently used by folks here as a reason why recruits will never be attracted to?

I never took a class in economics, but I'm guessing that chapter in marketplace value doesn't show up in any text books.


Edit...by your same reasoning, if Jon Scheyer were to get hit by a truck this season, then Duke would be able to hire the next coach for a very cheap price, because simply having the job is good enough.

Not all coaching compensation is financial. A lot of coaches are attracted to high profile/prestigious positions. Duke offers neither of those things, so likely has to pay more to compensate (or bring in someone who doesn't care about those things, but that is harder to find and can have its own downsides).

Duke basketball would absolutely be able to pay less than other schools for the same coach, because it is such an attractive job for people who are striving for success. Duke Football is not an attractive job for people who are striving for success (well, it can be depending on your priorities, but at face value for your average coach it isn't IMO).

[CameronBornAndBred]

Duke basketball would absolutely be able to pay less than other schools for the same coach, because it is such an attractive job for people who are striving for success. Duke Football is not an attractive job for people who are striving for success (well, it can be depending on your priorities, but at face value for your average coach it isn't IMO).

Any high profile basketball coach is not going to coach for cheap. Even if it's at Duke.
Any "up and comer" would coach basketball at Duke for cheap, but then Duke runs the risk of the program tanking. With football, it's far easier to go after the young guy for less money, and take a risk. We aren't getting anyone high profile anyway, so take that out of the equation.
The young FB coach will come to Duke, and for less, because if he succeeds here, he has lots of leverage on his next job. If Duke is a stepping stone for that guy, I'm totally ok with it because it means we enjoyed his success along with him.

[chrishoke]

Coach K agreed to take the Duke job in 1980 without knowing know much Duke was going to pay him. Michie was incredulous.

[Acymetric]

Any high profile basketball coach is not going to coach for cheap. Even if it's at Duke.
Any "up and comer" would coach basketball at Duke for cheap, but then Duke runs the risk of the program tanking. With football, it's far easier to go after the young guy for less money, and take a risk. We aren't getting anyone high profile anyway, so take that out of the equation.
The young FB coach will come to Duke, and for less, because if he succeeds here, he has lots of leverage on his next job. If Duke is a stepping stone for that guy, I'm totally ok with it because it means we enjoyed his success along with him.

Except that in basketball Duke is likely near the top choice for the young up and comer. For Football, we are very likely the last choice in P5, and probably behind even some Group of 5 teams. So we can get the young up and comer for cheap in football, unless basically any other program offers them a comparable package.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So you're saying that a high profile job is worth less than coaching for a team that 1/5th of the fans say the school should just give up on, that everyone points to as being a dead-end position, that plays in a stadium that is consistently used by folks here as a reason why recruits will never be attracted to?

I never took a class in economics, but I'm guessing that chapter in marketplace value doesn't show up in any text books.


Edit...by your same reasoning, if Jon Scheyer were to get hit by a truck this season, then Duke would be able to hire the next coach for a very cheap price, because simply having the job is good enough.

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy on the snark there.

No, what I'm saying is that SC has many many advantages that Duke does not have. It is a far more appealing job from the boosters, budget, fan base, etc all the way down to recruiting and facilities. Duke lacks those things, so it would take more money to lure an equally attractive coach.

Is this really a crazy idea?

[Acymetric]

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy on the snark there.

No, what I'm saying is that SC has many many advantages that Duke does not have. It is a far more appealing job from the boosters, budget, fan base, etc all the way down to recruiting and facilities. Duke lacks those things, so it would take more money to lure an equally attractive coach.

Is this really a crazy idea?

Also media coverage (important for an up and comer trying to build a name for themselves, presumably).