Succession Season 3 Discussion

[A-Tex Devil]

"First they came for my PJ's, and I said nothing..."

[bundabergdevil]

FWIW, the value was stated to be $85b on last night's episode.

Anyone got hot takes from Episode 5? Without saying too much in case folks haven't watched, I felt it was a solid episode, but without the stringent intensity of the last two.

I loved it. The entire negotiation sequence seemed very authentic to me - the back and forth between intermediaries then having to go back to the principals, everyone trying to read the situation to determine their leverage to see if they can do even better than what they just agreed to, etc - was great. The shareholder meeting with a different people coming and going and killing time seemed too ridiculous for a large enterprise, even one going through last minute proxy battles. They would have much more filler ready to go. And there is no way Kendal would ever get close to the stage. Security would have been all over him keeping him away.

The Kendal roller coaster is exhausting though. Every time he does anything remotely competent he then does something totally ridiculous to undermine all his credibility. I guess all the Roy kids do this to some degree, but he is the worst offender.

But overall I though the episode was great (even if it didn't have multiple modes of private aviation).

Agree w/ both these points. The show has, for a fictional dramedy, done the business speak well and clearly studied corporate governance structures and activist investors and proxy/shareholder math, etc. For as litigious as public companies are today, it's amazing how old school, shuttle diplomacy deal-making still can be.

Also agree the shareholder meeting was a bit silly but I'll give the show creative liberties for having to create a spectacle at the actual event. It did help serve up some more sharp social commentary with Kendall's appeal about the victims of Waystar falling on the deaf ears of a sea of ambivalent shareholders.

I wasn't thrilled with how this episode shook out. I think it would have been much more interesting to see the forced vote --- and it certainly would have made the Adrien Brody meeting in the previous episode and all the back-and-forth with Sandy/Stewie more relevant. Maybe it still will be, guess we'll see.

I'm not quite sure where they go from here but I imagine the main point of tension going forward will be the DOJ investigation. The ownership machinations appear to be settled (for now).

[mkirsh]

Agree w/ both these points. The show has, for a fictional dramedy, done the business speak well and clearly studied corporate governance structures and activist investors and proxy/shareholder math, etc. For as litigious as public companies are today, it's amazing how old school, shuttle diplomacy deal-making still can be.

Also agree the shareholder meeting was a bit silly but I'll give the show creative liberties for having to create a spectacle at the actual event. It did help serve up some more sharp social commentary with Kendall's appeal about the victims of Waystar falling on the deaf ears of a sea of ambivalent shareholders.

I wasn't thrilled with how this episode shook out. I think it would have been much more interesting to see the forced vote --- and it certainly would have made the Adrien Brody meeting in the previous episode and all the back-and-forth with Sandy/Stewie more relevant. Maybe it still will be, guess we'll see.

I'm not quite sure where they go from here but I imagine the main point of tension going forward will be the DOJ investigation. The ownership machinations appear to be settled (for now).

All of the twists and turns are just proving grounds to see if anyone arises as a worthy successor to Logan, and even if so will they be able to actually pry power away. We know Sandy and Stewie (always makes me think of family guy) are opposed to another Roy, but the kids will keep scheming and backstabbing and front stabbing, oblivious to the fact that none of them are remotely qualified, much less have the respect and blessing from Pops. But Logans health has been an on and off issue since the beginning, so if he is sidelined due to that then it’s really game on. That is what I suspect is next. Sandy can’t step in, Stewie is just financing, Kendal is on the outside looking in, and everyone else has been kneecapped by Logan. Who is ready?

[Bostondevil]

All of the twists and turns are just proving grounds to see if anyone arises as a worthy successor to Logan, and even if so will they be able to actually pry power away. We know Sandy and Stewie (always makes me think of family guy) are opposed to another Roy, but the kids will keep scheming and backstabbing and front stabbing, oblivious to the fact that none of them are remotely qualified, much less have the respect and blessing from Pops. But Logans health has been an on and off issue since the beginning, so if he is sidelined due to that then it’s really game on. That is what I suspect is next. Sandy can’t step in, Stewie is just financing, Kendal is on the outside looking in, and everyone else has been kneecapped by Logan. Who is ready?

Bran

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bran

Who has a better story than Greg the Egg?

[bundabergdevil]

Bran

Hah! Some have called this GOT in suits. I can see a certain resemblance to the Lannister clan, particularly in the father-children dynamics.

If Succession devolves the way GOT did, I will be very disappointed but not as disappointed as I was when GOT did. Ugh.

[mkirsh]

Who has a better story than Greg the Egg?

I feel like the show uses Greg more as a tool (in many many ways) than as a character. He is the perspective of the audience; the outsider trying to figure out how to make his way into this world of wealth and power. As such, I'm not sure he will be a big plot driver but maybe with his papers he has a power move coming. Personally I doubt it.

Hah! Some have called this GOT in suits. I can see a certain resemblance to the Lannister clan, particularly in the father-children dynamics.

If Succession devolves the way GOT did, I will be very disappointed but not as disappointed as I was when GOT did. Ugh.

I am as disappointed as anyone with the way GOT ended, but comparing the two shows reveals how amazing GOT was and how rich that character universe is. Trying to find GOT equivalents for the Succession characters is hard; the Succession characters are way less robust. Logan is some combination of Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister, with a little Mad King thrown in, but after that there is no Ned Stark, Tyrion, Cercie, Jaime, Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya, Varys, etc. I think Shiv thinks she is Danny, the rightful heir who is going to make everything right again; Roman believes he is Rob Stark, honoring his father and waiting for his time; and Kendal thinks he is the "puppet master" Littlefinger, creating chaos so he can climb the ladder. But in reality they are all arrogant, oblivious dumbasses, so they are really Viserys or Theon Greyjoy. Maybe Jerri is Davos, the voice of reason who knows their supporting role, but that's all I got.

[JasonEvans]

I feel like the show uses Greg more as a tool (in many many ways) than as a character. He is the perspective of the audience; the outsider trying to figure out how to make his way into this world of wealth and power. As such, I'm not sure he will be a big plot driver but maybe with his papers he has a power move coming. Personally I doubt it.

I am as disappointed as anyone with the way GOT ended, but comparing the two shows reveals how amazing GOT was and how rich that character universe is. Trying to find GOT equivalents for the Succession characters is hard; the Succession characters are way less robust. Logan is some combination of Robert Baratheon and Tywin Lannister, with a little Mad King thrown in, but after that there is no Ned Stark, Tyrion, Cercie, Jaime, Jon Snow, Sansa, Arya, Varys, etc. I think Shiv thinks she is Danny, the rightful heir who is going to make everything right again; Roman believes he is Rob Stark, honoring his father and waiting for his time; and Kendal thinks he is the "puppet master" Littlefinger, creating chaos so he can climb the ladder. But in reality they are all arrogant, oblivious dumbasses, so they are really Viserys or Theon Greyjoy. Maybe Jerri is Davos, the voice of reason who knows their supporting role, but that's all I got.

Love the GOT comps but I quoted this post for a different reason...

Is there any scenario where we feel good about the ending of Succession?

• Logan is a reprehensible human being. A man who has bullied and manipulated everyone around him, including his family. Despite being a corporate genius, he is clearly losing his mind. If he clings to power at the end, we all know it will be nothing but a temporary victory as he has no more than a couple years left before his brain is mush.
  
  
• Kendall means well and I feel like the show wants us to root for him, but he has fallen off the wagon so much that we cannot possibly think he can lead a clean life at this point. He has not shown himself to be a smart or shrewd strategist. If he is given control of Waystar Royco, there is little question he would steer that ship into the reef very quickly.
  
  
• Don't even get me started on Roman, who is childish and inappropriate. I cannot come up with any scenario where the show redeems and rehabs him enough for us to accept him as CEO.
  
  
• Shiv seemed like a great choice in season one and part of season two, but she has become weaker and less insightful the more the show has gone on. She also seems only interested in furthering her own power, even if it means crushing her devoted husband. No one would feel good about her winning the Waystar throne in the end.
  
  
• Greg is a non-starter. He's too young to even be up for consideration.
  
  
• Connor is pretty much comic relief, a buffoon who wants nothing to do with the business and who has delusions of grandeur. Of everyone in the family, he has consistently been the least interesting character and his storyline seems tangential, at best, to the main drama on the show. Putting him in charge would be a Bran moment, for sure.
  
  
• Tom kind of intrigues me. His loyalty to Shiv seems worthy, but then you think about how he treats Greg and he becomes hard to root for. Plus, it really does not feel like he is being set up to be a winner in all this.
  
  
• After that, we have side characters. I mean, did we sit through five seasons (folks close to the show are saying it will wrap in 4 or 5 seasons... I think it will be 5) of this only to see someone from outside the family take over? That feels unfair and unsatisfying. And, right now, none of the side characters like Geri or Frank seem anywhere close to being able to take the reins of the company. The latest episode where they all ran around like chickens with their heads cut off because Logan was in a pee-pee pill stupor sealed their fates as worthless.

That said, if I had to guess I would say the show ends with the Roy family ousted from any involvement with the company. Stewie and Sandy pick a new CEO and the Roys ride away in private helicopters wondering what is next for them (all except Logan, who is probably dead or otherwise incapacitated).

[bundabergdevil]

Love the GOT comps but I quoted this post for a different reason...

Is there any scenario where we feel good about the ending of Succession?

• Logan is a reprehensible human being. A man who has bullied and manipulated everyone around him, including his family. Despite being a corporate genius, he is clearly losing his mind. If he clings to power at the end, we all know it will be nothing but a temporary victory as he has no more than a couple years left before his brain is mush.
  
  
• Kendall means well and I feel like the show wants us to root for him, but he has fallen off the wagon so much that we cannot possibly think he can lead a clean life at this point. He has not shown himself to be a smart or shrewd strategist. If he is given control of Waystar Royco, there is little question he would steer that ship into the reef very quickly.
  
  
• Don't even get me started on Roman, who is childish and inappropriate. I cannot come up with any scenario where the show redeems and rehabs him enough for us to accept him as CEO.
  
  
• Shiv seemed like a great choice in season one and part of season two, but she has become weaker and less insightful the more the show has gone on. She also seems only interested in furthering her own power, even if it means crushing her devoted husband. No one would feel good about her winning the Waystar throne in the end.
  
  
• Greg is a non-starter. He's too young to even be up for consideration.
  
  
• Connor is pretty much comic relief, a buffoon who wants nothing to do with the business and who has delusions of grandeur. Of everyone in the family, he has consistently been the least interesting character and his storyline seems tangential, at best, to the main drama on the show. Putting him in charge would be a Bran moment, for sure.
  
  
• Tom kind of intrigues me. His loyalty to Shiv seems worthy, but then you think about how he treats Greg and he becomes hard to root for. Plus, it really does not feel like he is being set up to be a winner in all this.
  
  
• After that, we have side characters. I mean, did we sit through five seasons (folks close to the show are saying it will wrap in 4 or 5 seasons... I think it will be 5) of this only to see someone from outside the family take over? That feels unfair and unsatisfying. And, right now, none of the side characters like Geri or Frank seem anywhere close to being able to take the reins of the company. The latest episode where they all ran around like chickens with their heads cut off because Logan was in a pee-pee pill stupor sealed their fates as worthless.

That said, if I had to guess I would say the show ends with the Roy family ousted from any involvement with the company. Stewie and Sandy pick a new CEO and the Roys ride away in private helicopters wondering what is next for them (all except Logan, who is probably dead or otherwise incapacitated).

This is not a happy ending type show for the average viewer. Maybe if you’re a Wall Street type, it is, but not for most folks.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Love the GOT comps but I quoted this post for a different reason...

Is there any scenario where we feel good about the ending of Succession?

• Logan is a reprehensible human being. A man who has bullied and manipulated everyone around him, including his family. Despite being a corporate genius, he is clearly losing his mind. If he clings to power at the end, we all know it will be nothing but a temporary victory as he has no more than a couple years left before his brain is mush.
  
  
• Kendall means well and I feel like the show wants us to root for him, but he has fallen off the wagon so much that we cannot possibly think he can lead a clean life at this point. He has not shown himself to be a smart or shrewd strategist. If he is given control of Waystar Royco, there is little question he would steer that ship into the reef very quickly.
  
  
• Don't even get me started on Roman, who is childish and inappropriate. I cannot come up with any scenario where the show redeems and rehabs him enough for us to accept him as CEO.
  
  
• Shiv seemed like a great choice in season one and part of season two, but she has become weaker and less insightful the more the show has gone on. She also seems only interested in furthering her own power, even if it means crushing her devoted husband. No one would feel good about her winning the Waystar throne in the end.
  
  
• Greg is a non-starter. He's too young to even be up for consideration.
  
  
• Connor is pretty much comic relief, a buffoon who wants nothing to do with the business and who has delusions of grandeur. Of everyone in the family, he has consistently been the least interesting character and his storyline seems tangential, at best, to the main drama on the show. Putting him in charge would be a Bran moment, for sure.
  
  
• Tom kind of intrigues me. His loyalty to Shiv seems worthy, but then you think about how he treats Greg and he becomes hard to root for. Plus, it really does not feel like he is being set up to be a winner in all this.
  
  
• After that, we have side characters. I mean, did we sit through five seasons (folks close to the show are saying it will wrap in 4 or 5 seasons... I think it will be 5) of this only to see someone from outside the family take over? That feels unfair and unsatisfying. And, right now, none of the side characters like Geri or Frank seem anywhere close to being able to take the reins of the company. The latest episode where they all ran around like chickens with their heads cut off because Logan was in a pee-pee pill stupor sealed their fates as worthless.

That said, if I had to guess I would say the show ends with the Roy family ousted from any involvement with the company. Stewie and Sandy pick a new CEO and the Roys ride away in private helicopters wondering what is next for them (all except Logan, who is probably dead or otherwise incapacitated).

I agree with your take on the Roys, but it's also just a snapshot of right now. Early on, Shiv seemed charming, Roman seemed like a petulant twerp, Kendall seemed serious. Things have evolved quite a bit. Roman has become more, well, human and less sociopath-like. Shiv had outed herself as just as cold and manipulative as anyone else in the family. Kendall has had more deaths and resurrections than most shows allow. Even Tom has become more likeable after being a total tool in season one.

My point being, we could feel dramatically different in two more seasons.

To keep with the GoT analogy, Jamie Lannister wouldn't have been on anyone's list of favorite characters after the first season. But they found a very appealing depth to him (and then promptly squandered it in the final episodes).

Who knows how many Roy kids will be around by the end? How many times can Kendall kick around and try to take down his father? Will Connor turn his new European Cable world into a presidency? Will Roman find a satisfying romantic relationship? Will Shiv grow a spine and a conscience? Will Greg learn some savvy?

I'll keep watching as long as the dialogue stays as completely insane and satisfying.

[budwom]

Logan could use a week at a spa.
Excellent representation of a hideously boring corporate event, I don't miss those one bit.

[mkirsh]

Love the GOT comps but I quoted this post for a different reason...

Is there any scenario where we feel good about the ending of Succession?

• Logan is a reprehensible human being. A man who has bullied and manipulated everyone around him, including his family. Despite being a corporate genius, he is clearly losing his mind. If he clings to power at the end, we all know it will be nothing but a temporary victory as he has no more than a couple years left before his brain is mush.
  
  
• Kendall means well and I feel like the show wants us to root for him, but he has fallen off the wagon so much that we cannot possibly think he can lead a clean life at this point. He has not shown himself to be a smart or shrewd strategist. If he is given control of Waystar Royco, there is little question he would steer that ship into the reef very quickly.
  
  
• Don't even get me started on Roman, who is childish and inappropriate. I cannot come up with any scenario where the show redeems and rehabs him enough for us to accept him as CEO.
  
  
• Shiv seemed like a great choice in season one and part of season two, but she has become weaker and less insightful the more the show has gone on. She also seems only interested in furthering her own power, even if it means crushing her devoted husband. No one would feel good about her winning the Waystar throne in the end.
  
  
• Greg is a non-starter. He's too young to even be up for consideration.
  
  
• Connor is pretty much comic relief, a buffoon who wants nothing to do with the business and who has delusions of grandeur. Of everyone in the family, he has consistently been the least interesting character and his storyline seems tangential, at best, to the main drama on the show. Putting him in charge would be a Bran moment, for sure.
  
  
• Tom kind of intrigues me. His loyalty to Shiv seems worthy, but then you think about how he treats Greg and he becomes hard to root for. Plus, it really does not feel like he is being set up to be a winner in all this.
  
  
• After that, we have side characters. I mean, did we sit through five seasons (folks close to the show are saying it will wrap in 4 or 5 seasons... I think it will be 5) of this only to see someone from outside the family take over? That feels unfair and unsatisfying. And, right now, none of the side characters like Geri or Frank seem anywhere close to being able to take the reins of the company. The latest episode where they all ran around like chickens with their heads cut off because Logan was in a pee-pee pill stupor sealed their fates as worthless.

That said, if I had to guess I would say the show ends with the Roy family ousted from any involvement with the company. Stewie and Sandy pick a new CEO and the Roys ride away in private helicopters wondering what is next for them (all except Logan, who is probably dead or otherwise incapacitated).

I really like this run-down, and I agree with where you think this is going. I think the only satisfying/authentic ending, based on what we've seen to date, is that all the selfish, power-hungry contenders destroy themselves and the company in their battle royale, and someone else is left to pick up the shattered pieces.

Side note: I'm not convinced Geri or Frank are "worthless" in any other setting, but at WaystarRoyco Logan's gravity would make even the most competent manager seem inept. It was pretty evident when they negotiated what should have a been a good deal, and Logan just said "I would have done it better" without any specific details as to how. He constantly undermines and neuters anyone who is a potential threat to him. If Logan were completely out Geri might be a good CEO - I don't think we've seen enough to evaluate her yet.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I really like this run-down, and I agree with where you think this is going. I think the only satisfying/authentic ending, based on what we've seen to date, is that all the selfish, power-hungry contenders destroy themselves and the company in their battle royale, and someone else is left to pick up the shattered pieces.

Side note: I'm not convinced Geri or Frank are "worthless" in any other setting, but at WaystarRoyco Logan's gravity would make even the most competent manager seem inept. It was pretty evident when they negotiated what should have a been a good deal, and Logan just said "I would have done it better" without any specific details as to how. He constantly undermines and neuters anyone who is a potential threat to him. If Logan were completely out Geri might be a good CEO - I don't think we've seen enough to evaluate her yet.

Logan burning Gerri this season (apparently) dramatically reduces my impression of Logan. Gerri seems to be the smartest person in the room most of the time, and has stayed by his side through a lot of crap. If he really continues to have her as a figurehead and leave her set up for a fall, I expect a counter-move from Gerri that will have consequences.

[budwom]

Logan burning Gerri this season (apparently) dramatically reduces my impression of Logan. Gerri seems to be the smartest person in the room most of the time, and has stayed by his side through a lot of crap. If he really continues to have her as a figurehead and leave her set up for a fall, I expect a counter-move from Gerri that will have consequences.

Yes, I can see major consequences coming from some place we don't necessarily expect.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes, I can see major consequences coming from some place we don't necessarily expect.

Tom's also got something up his sleeve. He's out there testing reactions. Greg wants to have something going on, but I don't think he has what it takes. He just needs to go to DOJ and sacrifice himself. He's not an important enough piece for anyone else to bring along. With the investigation already happening, his leverage is minimal.

[DevilHorse]

Yes, I can see major consequences coming from some place we don't necessarily expect.

Perhaps Logan had a love child, who happens to be older than all of his presently known children, who is a corporate shark. This person will appear in the last season and will present an attractive alternative to the existing Roys. Logan will consider him. The existing (legitimate) Roys will mobilize and act more corporate.

Greg's saving grace is that he at least knows when he is being set up or crapped on. He doesn't know what to do with it, but he can recognize a bad situation.

The comparison of Waystar/Royco to GoT is a good one, except that for the most part, no one in Waystar/Royco has killed anyone (a BIG part of GoT) except for Kendall who killed that server/cocaine guy, in the car accident, at Shiv's wedding in England, and of course is about to kill his daughter's rabbit with his superb bagel and veterinary advice.

Larry
DevilHorse

[bundabergdevil]

Perhaps Logan had a love child, who happens to be older than all of his presently known children, who is a corporate shark. This person will appear in the last season and will present an attractive alternative to the existing Roys. Logan will consider him. The existing (legitimate) Roys will mobilize and act more corporate.

Greg's saving grace is that he at least knows when he is being set up or crapped on. He doesn't know what to do with it, but he can recognize a bad situation.

The comparison of Waystar/Royco to GoT is a good one, except that for the most part, no one in Waystar/Royco has killed anyone (a BIG part of GoT) except for Kendall who killed that server/cocaine guy, in the car accident, at Shiv's wedding in England, and of course is about to kill his daughter's rabbit with his superb bagel and veterinary advice.

Larry
DevilHorse

Lots of stabbing and attempted assassination in the figurative sense. All those dancing cruise girls that got thrown overboard were also killed in the literal sense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Lots of stabbing and attempted assassination in the figurative sense. All those dancing cruise girls that got thrown overboard were also killed in the literal sense.

NRPI

[bundabergdevil]

NRPI

Touché.

[mkirsh]

Another strong episode this week IMO, with the best moments coming from Tom and Greg. Episode spoilers below so beware if you haven’t seen it.

Highlights for me:
1) I thought Tom’s last line to Kendall was amazing and sums up the family dynamic perfectly. Kendall has to realize this too but to hear it so clearly stated has to be some sort of wake up call
2) I love Greg finally taking a stand on something with his opinion on Connor
3) Really surprised Shiv lost a power play to Roman. He seems to be the current Logan favorite (which is actually not a good spot to be in)
4) Really unsurprised Logan forced Shiv to sell out
5) I guess the private aviation ban hasn’t kicked in yet
6) After a string of good episodes, I fear next weeks focus on Kendall’s birthday party to himself is going to take a big step backwards.