Vegas baby!! World Series of Poker

[OldPhiKap]

I went out a few hours ago, before the dinner break. I’m kinda mad at myself.
I had pledged to play pretty tight pre-flop and not get too much in unless I had a real hand. Stay out of trouble I told myself. Then I just spaced and did this…

I had K-10 spades. 800-1600 blinds.

I had about 50k in chips, a decent stack for sure but not huge. No reason to rush yet. I called the blind from early position. The table chip leader then raised to 4000 and I called.

Flop came Kd- 8s- 4s. Both the 8 and 4 were spades. I bet 5000 and he called.

Turn was a blank, not a spade, and I checked. He bet about 7500 and I shoved my last 30k. He snap called and showed pocket aces. I had outs — a spade, K, or 10 — but none hit. All done.

The pre flop call is what has me burning. I could have just folded and I probably should have never called the big blind in the first place (esp in early position). I was probably behind when I made that call and that is what I had been trying to avoid. After the flop hits me with a flush draw, I guess I did ok (though any call of my shove clearly has me beat and there are a lot of hands that have my 10 out kicked) but it is the loose call preflop that has me upset at myself.

Ahh well. Had a good night at blackjack, almost made back what today’s entry cost me. I will be playing in the $1500 bounty turbo tomorrow. That should be fun and truly wild! Need to get cards or you are likely gonna be toast from the blinds pretty quickly.

Good luck today!

[OldPhiKap]

You limped, making the pot 4000. Villain bet 4000, meaning you only had to call 2400. Not unreasonable.

Flop played standard. Pot 20400.

Turn— you can’t fold to his bet.

So my two questions:

1. If you were going to lead with a fairly speculative hand from early position, would a raise instead of a limp have been a better play? If Villain three-bets you (likely with a super premium hand) you know you are toast and can get away. Not sure your hand plays well out of position if you get called, which is what your limp invites.

2. Is the play on the turn to just call instead of shove? What worse hands would call you?

I don’t know the answer to either of these.

[Udaman]

JE - don’t think you did anything super wrong here. K-10 suited is a decent preflop hand and it didn’t cost you too much. The guy with Aces played great. But he could have had Queens.

You had a great flop and played it well. I think you’re only mistake was going all in in the turn. if you call the $7K then you have 14 outs to smoke him on the river. None hit and you fold on any bet with still $23K left. If you were truly short stacked then you have to. but with $23K you still have 15 BB. not ideal, but not the end of the world. Alas. What a fun experience!

[Skydog]

I went out a few hours ago, before the dinner break. I’m kinda mad at myself.
I had pledged to play pretty tight pre-flop and not get too much in unless I had a real hand. Stay out of trouble I told myself. Then I just spaced and did this…

I had K-10 spades. 800-1600 blinds.

I had about 50k in chips, a decent stack for sure but not huge. No reason to rush yet. I called the blind from early position. The table chip leader then raised to 4000 and I called.

Flop came Kd- 8s- 4s. Both the 8 and 4 were spades. I bet 5000 and he called.

Turn was a blank, not a spade, and I checked. He bet about 7500 and I shoved my last 30k. He snap called and showed pocket aces. I had outs — a spade, K, or 10 — but none hit. All done.

The pre flop call is what has me burning. I could have just folded and I probably should have never called the big blind in the first place (esp in early position). I was probably behind when I made that call and that is what I had been trying to avoid. After the flop hits me with a flush draw, I guess I did ok (though any call of my shove clearly has me beat and there are a lot of hands that have my 10 out kicked) but it is the loose call preflop that has me upset at myself.

Ahh well. Had a good night at blackjack, almost made back what today’s entry cost me. I will be playing in the $1500 bounty turbo tomorrow. That should be fun and truly wild! Need to get cards or you are likely gonna be toast from the blinds pretty quickly.

KTs is a great hand to raise in late position, but as you noted, is too weak to play in early position. Also if you do play it in early position its much better to raise than limp as OldPhiKap mentioned. Raising makes your play much easier - if you get reraised you know opponent probably has a very strong range like QQ+ or AK and you can make an easy fold. If you are just called you are in good shape as well. Remember they will likely put you on a very strong preflop hand and they will miss most flops. So on most flops you just follow through with a continuation bet and that will take it down most of the time. Raising preflop gives you the initiative and you win the pots that both of you miss, and there are a lot of those.

But ok you limped and then called a pfr. Limping was a mistake but I like your call of the raise. Pot odds are too good to fold. However on the flop I think you should check to the raiser. Your lead will caused your opponent to fold his weaker hands and you don’t want that. Also when he calls your lead you are in a tough spot on most turns. So better to just check and let him bet his misses and 2nd best hands like QQ, JJ, T9, etc. So ck/call is probably best.

I would also likely check/call the turn. You may be ahead and too many good river cards for you to fold. So call and see river. Bet big if you hit flush or 2 pair, otherwise make a read and decide whether to call if he bets into your weak king. As you stated your turn c/r all in only gets called when you are behind. Your hand was strong enough for a c/r push on flop (its a coin flip or you a slight favorite vs AA). But on turn it is a ck/call or ck/fold depending on how tight you think your opponent is.

Once you saw that flop you were going to lose money on this hand no matter what you did. And your reasoning is exactly correct - most of the problem was created by your momentary preflop mind fart. I know that feeling way too well!

Good luck the rest of the way!

[OldPhiKap]

KTs is a great hand to raise in late position, but as you noted, is too weak to play in early position. Also if you do play it in early position its much better to raise than limp as OldPhiKap mentioned. Raising makes your play much easier - if you get reraised you know opponent probably has a very strong range like QQ+ or AK and you can make an easy fold. If you are just called you are in good shape as well. Remember they will likely put you on a very strong preflop hand and they will miss most flops. So on most flops you just follow through with a continuation bet and that will take it down most of the time. Raising preflop gives you the initiative and you win the pots that both of you miss, and there are a lot of those.

But ok you limped and then called a pfr. Limping was a mistake but I like your call of the raise. Pot odds are too good to fold. However on the flop I think you should check to the raiser. Your lead will caused your opponent to fold his weaker hands and you don’t want that. Also when he calls your lead you are in a tough spot on most turns. So better to just check and let him bet his misses and 2nd best hands like QQ, JJ, T9, etc. So ck/call is probably best.

I would also likely check/call the turn. You may be ahead and too many good river cards for you to fold. So call and see river. Bet big if you hit flush or 2 pair, otherwise make a read and decide whether to call if he bets into your weak king. As you stated your turn c/r all in only gets called when you are behind. Your hand was strong enough for a c/r push on flop (its a coin flip or you a slight favorite vs AA). But on turn it is a ck/call or ck/fold depending on how tight you think your opponent is.

Once you saw that flop you were going to lose money on this hand no matter what you did. And your reasoning is exactly correct - most of the problem was created by your momentary preflop mind fart. I know that feeling way too well!

Good luck the rest of the way!

I like this analysis.

FWIW (which I assure you is zip) I do not have an open-limp range. All opens are raises unless very short-stacked for the reasons Skydog mentions.

I thought you checked the flop to the raiser and called, I see I misread that. My default (and again, I suck — take that into account) is almost always to check to the raiser when out of position.

I could argue that the biggest headwind you had was not your hand, but your position.

(I will be out there in about nine days for a bit, I will try to post some hands so the group can comment. All comments and thoughts welcome, that’s how I try to get better!)

[OldPhiKap]

^^ of course, having said that, Jason smashed the flop with a strong flush draw and top pair. There’s a benefit of getting money in the pot on the flop, and if you scare off the villain with a bet you’d gladly just take the pot there. I could make an argument for leading out or checking (or even check-raising), and I guess someone would tell me that I need to vary my action between the three to be (gasp) GTO.

[OldPhiKap]

If we assume villain is on the button or hijack, and is applying pressure as the big stack, let’s assume this is a reasonable range for him to raise Jason’s pre-flop limp:

23F981F1-01CB-46D1-A3F6-65D8568CF52F.jpg

We can quibble (or more) about the range I picked, but after the flop Jason is about 80%+ against villain’s range. So I could justify a donk bet or a check-raise, even though villain is at the top of his range it turns out.

Against top 105 of hands, Jason is still in fantastic shape after the flop:

99D9A86F-6EB0-4863-8250-9DB969C10DBA.jpg

Y’all agree/disagree?

[OldPhiKap]

If we assume villain is on the button or hijack, and is applying pressure as the big stack, let’s assume this is a reasonable range for him to raise Jason’s pre-flop limp:

23F981F1-01CB-46D1-A3F6-65D8568CF52F.jpg

We can quibble (or more) about the range I picked, but after the flop Jason is about 80%+ against villain’s range. So I could justify a donk bet or a check-raise, even though villain is at the top of his range it turns out.

Against top 10% of hands, Jason is still in fantastic shape after the flop:

99D9A86F-6EB0-4863-8250-9DB969C10DBA.jpg

Y’all agree/disagree?

Corrected.

[Skydog]

^^ of course, having said that, Jason smashed the flop with a strong flush draw and top pair. There’s a benefit of getting money in the pot on the flop, and if you scare off the villain with a bet you’d gladly just take the pot there. I could make an argument for leading out or checking (or even check-raising), and I guess someone would tell me that I need to vary my action between the three to be (gasp) GTO.

Yes top pair and 2nd nut flush draw is a pretty strong and will be ahead of most of the time. That isn’t disputed. But you still need to pick a betting line that will extract the most $ when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind.

Leading into the preflop raiser with your somewhat good hands usually does not accomplish this goal. In fact the donk bet helps your opponent play perfectly. He/she will likely fold the bottom of their range - whiffed hands (AQ, AJ, etc), 2nd pairs (JT, T9, weak flush draws, etc.), and some JJ, QQ hands, the exact hands you most want to play against. Against good players the donk bet usually only going to get you action when you are behind (opp has AA, AK, TT, etc). Those strong hands will either call or raise your lead out. If they raise you have a very tough decision - fold a very strong drawing hand (not good) or putting in a lot of money in when you are behind (not good).

But if you check to the raiser all kinds of good things can happen. Most in position preflop raisers will make a continuation bet on a K84 flop with 90% of their range. So now you are getting action from all those AQ, JT, JJ, QQ, 98 and weak flush draw hands. And that is like printing money.

Also note that you said you want to get $ in on flop because you have a good hand. I think you nee to be more precise - what we really want isn’t $ in on flop in general. We specifically want opponent to get $ in on flop with bad hands.

Put it another way - what is the purpose of the lead out bet? Does it get better hands to fold? Not really. Does it get weaker hands to call? Usually not. Does it expose you to a raise that will put you in a very difficult spot - unfortunately yes.

When turn is a blank I am in a similar situation. Leading out will probably lead to an opponent pushing his AA, TT, AK hands and I have to fold. Better to check again. Why? Because you will often get a check back from hands that missed flop and that gives you another free card. Also if your read is that they are betting a second time with a weak hand then you can ck/raise all in and take down a decent size pot. If your read was wrong (they have you beat) you still can hit a K, T or spade on river and stack them. Jason did c/r turn but he did that after a flop donk bet that likely already folded out the pfr’s weak hands. But sometimes Jason’s turn c/r will trap someone who bet the turn with a weak hand as a bluff (or semi-bluff) because they smelled weakness when Jason checks turn after betting flop. But most of the time he will be behind (like in this case) and hoping to hit a draw with one card to come.

I know these things because I have much intimate experience with every mistake known to poker. Also I’m a lot better on theory than practice. I often know what I should do but a momentary lack of discipline or attention or my emotions sabotage my best intentions. Still love the game.

[grad_devil]

23F981F1-01CB-46D1-A3F6-65D8568CF52F.jpg

I'm a very casual Hold 'Em player - but I really like this program you're using to show odds/etc. Is it a site? App? Care to share the name?

[OldPhiKap]

I'm a very casual Hold 'Em player - but I really like this program you're using to show odds/etc. Is it a site? App? Care to share the name?

PokerCruncher. It’s available in the Apple Apps store.

[Skydog]

PokerCruncher. It’s available in the Apple Apps store.

I use pokercruncher! Great app for holdem.

[grad_devil]

PokerCruncher. It’s available in the Apple Apps store.

Can't spork - but thanks all the same!

[Udaman]

Since we're on poker...

Last time I played I was super stupid. Had pocket Queens as the small blind in 1/2 NL. One person had raised to $15 and three people called. I raised to $80. The big stack guy (who was on the hottest run I've EVER seen at a table) reraised to $150. I was up about $300 at the time. I should have folded. Instead I called. Flop was K, 4, 2 rainbow. I checked. He raised $100 and I called. Turn was a 10. River a Jack. I checked twice and he checked (I guess worried that I had flopped a set). He had pocket Aces. Can't believe I played that dumb. The next hand I had pocket J's. Someone went all in and I folded. He had K's. Then six hands later I had pocket Q's again. Several people called a $20 raise. The flop was A, J, 5, suited. Someone raised $150 and I folded. He had pocket Aces. So maddening. Ended the day losing about $200 and just super mad at myself. By the way, the last 3 times I've played (literally hundreds of hands), I have yet to flop a set, despite having pairs about 30 times or so. GRRRR.

And now, for the bad beat of all time. I was playing the Encore in Boston (just before Covid shutdown - they still haven't reopened poker and probably never will, which sucks on every level possible, but I digress). In the BB, I had K,Q suited. Five people were in on a $15 bet, including me. The flop was K,K,Q. I checked. One person raised $20 and everyone called. The turn was an Ace. I raised $200. The dealer thought for a long while and called. Everyone else folded. River was an Ace. I checked and he went all-in. I asked if he would show his cards if I folded. He said yes, but I already knew. He had A,4 unsuited. Odds of Ace, Ace on the turn/river is 1 in 330. "He should have paid me on that hand."

[JasonEvans]

Lost in the $1500 bounty tourney. I don't recall the details nearly as precisely.

I had about 35k with blinds at 400-800. Was dealt K-Q, I forget the suits. I was in the cutoff and one person had called the 800 blind ahead of me. I raised to 2500 and got called by the big blind. The other early caller folded.

Flop came Kd - Ks - 6s. I had flopped trips. Big Blind opened for 3k. I popped it to 7k and he came back all-in. I figured he was probably on the flush draw, which meant he had a 1/3 chance of hitting it. There was a chance he had pocket sixes and had flopped a boat, in which case I was close to dead. He could have been bluffing or had some nice pocket pair and did not suspect me of having a K, though my raise pretty much screams KING!

I thought for a little bit and decided to take my chances that the flush didn't hit so I called. If I was right, I would have a commanding chip stack at my table and might be able to hunt a bit for bounty chips (worth $500 each) as I knocked out lesser stacks. This was a turbo tournament, designed to be played in one day with 20 minute levels, so I knew that we were no more than an hour from a lot of folks starting to feel short-stacked.

I called and, of course, a spade came on the turn. I still had 10 outs for a full house or quads (the last K, or a 6, Q, or whatever the turn card had been) but no such luck. Adios. I played it right, I am convinced of that, but sometimes you get unlucky. I had about a 70% chance of getting to 70k in chips... I'll take that.

Ahh well... had a ton of fun and did really well at the blackjack tables Monday night so the few days weren't a total loss.

[JasonEvans]

It is so "poker" that my flush draw missed to knock me out of one tourney and then a flush draw hit to knock me out of the other.

F#*&@*# this game!!

[Skydog]

Lost in the $1500 bounty tourney. I don't recall the details nearly as precisely.

I had about 35k with blinds at 400-800. Was dealt K-Q, I forget the suits. I was in the cutoff and one person had called the 800 blind ahead of me. I raised to 2500 and got called by the big blind. The other early caller folded.

Flop came Kd - Ks - 6s. I had flopped trips. Big Blind opened for 3k. I popped it to 7k and he came back all-in. I figured he was probably on the flush draw, which meant he had a 1/3 chance of hitting it. There was a chance he had pocket sixes and had flopped a boat, in which case I was close to dead. He could have been bluffing or had some nice pocket pair and did not suspect me of having a K, though my raise pretty much screams KING!

I thought for a little bit and decided to take my chances that the flush didn't hit so I called. If I was right, I would have a commanding chip stack at my table and might be able to hunt a bit for bounty chips (worth $500 each) as I knocked out lesser stacks. This was a turbo tournament, designed to be played in one day with 20 minute levels, so I knew that we were no more than an hour from a lot of folks starting to feel short-stacked.

I called and, of course, a spade came on the turn. I still had 10 outs for a full house or quads (the last K, or a 6, Q, or whatever the turn card had been) but no such luck. Adios. I played it right, I am convinced of that, but sometimes you get unlucky. I had about a 70% chance of getting to 70k in chips... I'll take that.

Ahh well... had a ton of fun and did really well at the blackjack tables Monday night so the few days weren't a total loss.

You can never, ever fold that hand on the flop. You played it perfectly, and got all your money in way ahead. He just got lucky.

What else can you do? Poker is about making the right decisions and then enduring the random variance. Painful at times, but it also gives the game it's excitement.

[Skydog]

It is so "poker" that my flush draw missed to knock me out of one tourney and then a flush draw hit to knock me out of the other.

F#*&@*# this game!!

I've gone through weeks of that shxx. It is brutal.

[Phredd3]

I've gone through weeks of that shxx. It is brutal.

I admire professional poker players. You can literally play perfectly for weeks and still come home with less money than you had when you started. That takes supreme confidence and a rock-solid ability to leave your emotions at home. It also takes a pretty substantial bank roll at the levels these people are playing.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Ahh well... had a ton of fun and did really well at the blackjack tables Monday night so the few days weren't a total loss.

That's what counts...plus...well everything else Vegas.