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  1. #1
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    2021-22 NBA Thread

    This thread will be the home for general NBA conversation, not necessarily about Duke players, this coming season.

    I will start it off with this... the odds that any given team will win the 2022 NBA title:



    I feel like 9-1 on the Bucks to repeat seems low, but I suspect a lot of folks think the Nets are gonna steamroll to a title. 15-1 on the Suns also feels like a decent bet.

    The Hawks and 35-1 and Celtics at 40-1 feel like good bets too. Not saying each of them are likely to win, but those both feel like good odds for young teams that could get better as they mature.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    This thread will be the home for general NBA conversation, not necessarily about Duke players, this coming season.

    I will start it off with this... the odds that any given team will win the 2022 NBA title:

    Was about to say that I'm a huge Nets skeptic, too much drama and too many guys who seem to get injured a lot, but then I look at the rest of that list and I'm like...meh. Lakers with a bunch of old guys, could be awesome if they stay healthy and actually click, but we'll see. Warriors with questions about bringing Klay back and how they'll cope with the new rules. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. I'd love to see a semi dark horse like the Hawks or Jazz take advantage if no one emerges as a dominant team. Those teams aren't total dark horses, of course, but they're not favorites either, and it's been a long time since the NBA felt wide open. With LeBron getting older, though, there's a changing of the guard a-comin'.

  3. #3
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    So, in other news, Pau Gasol says he is retiring (he's 41 and has not played in 2 years anyway). The Lakers say they are going to retire his jersey.



    Ummmm, really? Dude played 6 1/2 seasons for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude made 3 all-star teams for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude never averaged even 20 ppg for you and you are retiring his jersey?

    Here are the other guys who had their jersey's retired by the Lakers: Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Worthy, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, and Jamaal Wilkes.

    Is there any argument that Pau was a better Laker than Byron Scott? What about Michael Cooper (one of the best defenders in Laker history)? How much better was Pau than Lamar Odom?

    I just think this is one of the weakest jersey retirements that I can recall. Other opinions?
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  4. #4
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    It's the preseason, but top NBA plays from Monday are high in ACC content.



    9. Cole Anthony (UNC), Magic
    8. Terence Mann (FSU), Clippers
    4. Jalen Johnson (Duke), Hawks
    3. Jayson Tatum (Duke), Celtics vs. Wendell Carter (Duke), Magic
    2. Moses Wright (GT), Clippers

    Also

    5. opponent blocks Trey Murphy (UVA), Pelicans
    1. opponent eludes Brandon Ingram (Duke), Pelicans

    To be honest, my favorite play of that group came from Terence Mann.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, in other news, Pau Gasol says he is retiring (he's 41 and has not played in 2 years anyway). The Lakers say they are going to retire his jersey.



    Ummmm, really? Dude played 6 1/2 seasons for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude made 3 all-star teams for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude never averaged even 20 ppg for you and you are retiring his jersey?

    Here are the other guys who had their jersey's retired by the Lakers: Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Worthy, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, and Jamaal Wilkes.

    Is there any argument that Pau was a better Laker than Byron Scott? What about Michael Cooper (one of the best defenders in Laker history)? How much better was Pau than Lamar Odom?

    I just think this is one of the weakest jersey retirements that I can recall. Other opinions?
    The LA Lakers would not have won championships in 2009 and 2010 (Celtics were the better team, but without an injured Perkins for Game 7 they blew it in the final minute) without Pau Gasol.

    He was better than Goodrich, Wilkes, Cooper, Scott, and Odom.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, in other news, Pau Gasol says he is retiring (he's 41 and has not played in 2 years anyway). The Lakers say they are going to retire his jersey.



    Ummmm, really? Dude played 6 1/2 seasons for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude made 3 all-star teams for you and you are retiring his jersey? Dude never averaged even 20 ppg for you and you are retiring his jersey?

    Here are the other guys who had their jersey's retired by the Lakers: Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Worthy, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, and Jamaal Wilkes.

    Is there any argument that Pau was a better Laker than Byron Scott? What about Michael Cooper (one of the best defenders in Laker history)? How much better was Pau than Lamar Odom?

    I just think this is one of the weakest jersey retirements that I can recall. Other opinions?
    So here's the deal with the Lakers jersey retirements. Whether it's official or unofficial policy, the rule is that to get on the wall you have to get into the Hall of Fame. That's why Goodrich and Wilkes are up there and why Coop isn't. Pau is going to be in the Hall of Fame, no question.

    The Hall is not the only requirement, obviously. Spencer Haywood, Bob McAdoo, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, etc. are not going up on the wall as Lakers. But Pau made a very big contribution to the Lakers as the second best player and an all-star on three straight teams that went to the Finals, with two of them winning titles.

    Could you make a case that Coop or Byron made bigger contributions? Maybe, maybe not. But until they make the Hall -- which could still happen for Coop -- they ain't going up on the wall. Pau is.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    The LA Lakers would not have won championships in 2009 and 2010 (Celtics were the better team, but without an injured Perkins for Game 7 they blew it in the final minute) without Pau Gasol.

    He was better than Goodrich, Wilkes, Cooper, Scott, and Odom.
    Better than Gail Goodrich? I assume Goodrich was before your time. He was good. Really good. Really, really good.

    I mean, like good.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Better than Gail Goodrich? I assume Goodrich was before your time. He was good. Really good. Really, really good.

    I mean, like good.
    Okay, I admit I never saw Goodrich play during his actual playing days. I have watched video, but that can only tell you so much. My dad used to go to his games in LA (he lived in Burbank at the time), and I recall him saying good things about Goodrich when I was a kid. This is not a takedown of Gail Goodrich as much as it is a celebration of Pau Gasol.

    Gasol was really REALLY good. He was 7-ft tall, played very good defense, was a darn good rebounder, could score well around the basket, yet could also consistently hit shots out to 17 feet. He was a good shot-blocker, and perhaps most impressively, was an excellent passer.

    He was basically a top 10 NBA player for a solid decade. He will be a first-ballot hall-of-famer without question. I donít know this for sure, but I doubt Goodrich was quite on that level. Maybe Iím wrong, I honestly donít know.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    He was basically a top 10 NBA player for a solid decade. He will be a first-ballot hall-of-famer without question. I don’t know this for sure, but I doubt Goodrich was quite on that level. Maybe I’m wrong, I honestly don’t know.
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.

    I mean, I dunno if the Lakers win the titles in 2009 and 10 without Andrew Bynum or Lamar Odom either. Heck, Ron Artest doing the dirty work was a pretty major part of their success too. Those titles were all about Kobe, as we all know.

    I guess my reaction was not so much whether Gasol was a great player -- he was -- but to the fact that he was only in LA for a relatively short period of time. Like I said, we are talking about 6 1/2 seasons. Heck, when I think of Pau, I'm not even sure I picture him in a Laker uniform as he came up with Memphis and was pretty great for the Griz. IMO, you retire the jersey of someone who is iconic to your franchise. Guys who move around a lot just aren't really eligible, IMO. If you played more for someone else than you did for me (Pau was longed in Memphis than LA) then you ain't getting your jersey retired by me.

    Just one guy's opinion...
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.

    I mean, I dunno if the Lakers win the titles in 2009 and 10 without Andrew Bynum or Lamar Odom either. Heck, Ron Artest doing the dirty work was a pretty major part of their success too. Those titles were all about Kobe, as we all know.

    I guess my reaction was not so much whether Gasol was a great player -- he was -- but to the fact that he was only in LA for a relatively short period of time. Like I said, we are talking about 6 1/2 seasons. Heck, when I think of Pau, I'm not even sure I picture him in a Laker uniform as he came up with Memphis and was pretty great for the Griz. IMO, you retire the jersey of someone who is iconic to your franchise. Guys who move around a lot just aren't really eligible, IMO. If you played more for someone else than you did for me (Pau was longed in Memphis than LA) then you ain't getting your jersey retired by me.

    Just one guy's opinion...

    If Lebron picks up 3 titles in LA should they retire his number?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.

    I mean, I dunno if the Lakers win the titles in 2009 and 10 without Andrew Bynum or Lamar Odom either. Heck, Ron Artest doing the dirty work was a pretty major part of their success too. Those titles were all about Kobe, as we all know.

    I guess my reaction was not so much whether Gasol was a great player -- he was -- but to the fact that he was only in LA for a relatively short period of time. Like I said, we are talking about 6 1/2 seasons. Heck, when I think of Pau, I'm not even sure I picture him in a Laker uniform as he came up with Memphis and was pretty great for the Griz. IMO, you retire the jersey of someone who is iconic to your franchise. Guys who move around a lot just aren't really eligible, IMO. If you played more for someone else than you did for me (Pau was longed in Memphis than LA) then you ain't getting your jersey retired by me.

    Just one guy's opinion...
    I have higher standards than most for things like retiring jerseys and Hall of Fame inclusion. I think those types of honors should be reserved for iconic players. The truly great, not the very good. So I'm actually kinda lukewarm on Gasol receiving the jersey retirement honor, but like I said earlier, his certain HOF election and the multiple championships that he was the #2 player and indispensable part of makes it more understandable from a Lakers perspective.

    But your statement that I bolded would put quite a few jersey retirements on ice. For instance, under your rule, Wilt would have his jersey taken down from the rafters at Staples. That wouldn't be right. Kareem and Oscar would have their jerseys taken down from the rafters in Milwaukee. I would not want that either. I'm sure there are other similar examples. It's not just the number of years in the uniform. To me it's more about the iconic nature of the player and the lasting impact he had on the franchise in his time there.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    It's not just the number of years in the uniform. To me it's more about the iconic nature of the player and the lasting impact he had on the franchise in his time there.
    Even by that standard, is Pau Gasol an iconic Laker? When you think of players that define the Lakers, is he on the same level as Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic and the rest? In my mind, he's not just a step behind those guys, he's like half a mile behind them. As in, when I think of the Lakers, someone has to say the name Pau first, and only then will I think, "Oh, yeah, he was a pretty darn good Lakers player, too."

    Maybe if you are a die-hard Lakers fan, it doesn't seem incongruous. But jersey retirements are for players who rise above and beyond the franchise in the public consciousness. It's for players that EVERYONE talks about. Simply put, Pau is not that guy.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.

    I mean, I dunno if the Lakers win the titles in 2009 and 10 without Andrew Bynum or Lamar Odom either. Heck, Ron Artest doing the dirty work was a pretty major part of their success too. Those titles were all about Kobe, as we all know.

    I guess my reaction was not so much whether Gasol was a great player -- he was -- but to the fact that he was only in LA for a relatively short period of time. Like I said, we are talking about 6 1/2 seasons. Heck, when I think of Pau, I'm not even sure I picture him in a Laker uniform as he came up with Memphis and was pretty great for the Griz. IMO, you retire the jersey of someone who is iconic to your franchise. Guys who move around a lot just aren't really eligible, IMO. If you played more for someone else than you did for me (Pau was longed in Memphis than LA) then you ain't getting your jersey retired by me.

    Just one guy's opinion...
    Maybe Mitch Kupchak is running things from the shadows. Those UNC guys will hang a banner for anything. Donít mention that Karl Malone and Gary Payton played for them.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I have higher standards than most for things like retiring jerseys and Hall of Fame inclusion. I think those types of honors should be reserved for iconic players. The truly great, not the very good. So I'm actually kinda lukewarm on Gasol receiving the jersey retirement honor, but like I said earlier, his certain HOF election and the multiple championships that he was the #2 player and indispensable part of makes it more understandable from a Lakers perspective.

    But your statement that I bolded would put quite a few jersey retirements on ice. For instance, under your rule, Wilt would have his jersey taken down from the rafters at Staples. That wouldn't be right. Kareem and Oscar would have their jerseys taken down from the rafters in Milwaukee. I would not want that either. I'm sure there are other similar examples. It's not just the number of years in the uniform. To me it's more about the iconic nature of the player and the lasting impact he had on the franchise in his time there.
    Yup, this is a really good point. I don't disagree that Kareem, Wilt, and some others deserve to hang in multiple stadiums. Of course, they were unquestioned first-team All-NBA players and MVP candidates on multiple teams... while Gasol has never been any of those things. His greatest claim to fame is being the second best player (by a lot) on a couple championship teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by niveklaen View Post
    If Lebron picks up 3 titles in LA should they retire his number?
    Yup, see my comment above. When Lebron retires, I suspect we will see Jersey retirement ceremonies in 3 cities... and he will have earned each of them, no doubt about it.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.

    I mean, I dunno if the Lakers win the titles in 2009 and 10 without Andrew Bynum or Lamar Odom either. Heck, Ron Artest doing the dirty work was a pretty major part of their success too. Those titles were all about Kobe, as we all know.

    I guess my reaction was not so much whether Gasol was a great player -- he was -- but to the fact that he was only in LA for a relatively short period of time. Like I said, we are talking about 6 1/2 seasons. Heck, when I think of Pau, I'm not even sure I picture him in a Laker uniform as he came up with Memphis and was pretty great for the Griz. IMO, you retire the jersey of someone who is iconic to your franchise. Guys who move around a lot just aren't really eligible, IMO. If you played more for someone else than you did for me (Pau was longed in Memphis than LA) then you ain't getting your jersey retired by me.

    Just one guy's opinion...
    I agree with Jason. P. Gasol was a great player but, by the Lakers' standards, he's a weak jersey retirement.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    For a "top ten NBA player for a decade," he only made 4 All-NBA teams (which is top 15) and only 2 of them were all-NBA second team (which is top 10). And he only made 3 of those All-NBA teams as a member of the Lakers.
    I said BASICALLY a top ten player for a solid decade. You neglected to use that word when you quoted me, and that changes things a bit.

    We all know that the all-NBA teams go by position and so you could be a top 10 or so player ó by the perspective of most GMs and others who are paid to follow the sport professionally ó but not be on an all-NBA team. Plus, itís a lot more difficult to get acclaim when you play in Memphis, and Gasol played there for his first 8 seasons. Additionally, I think there is a bias against European players in the NBA.

    I stand by what I said ó that Pau Gasol was basically a top 10 player for a decade. The guy was one of the most talented and versatile players in the entire league.

    That being said, your comments about him only playing for the Lakers for 6 1/2 years are valid. Iím not sure how long a player needs to play for a particular team in order to get his jersey retired by them.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Even by that standard, is Pau Gasol an iconic Laker? When you think of players that define the Lakers, is he on the same level as Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic and the rest? In my mind, he's not just a step behind those guys, he's like half a mile behind them. As in, when I think of the Lakers, someone has to say the name Pau first, and only then will I think, "Oh, yeah, he was a pretty darn good Lakers player, too."

    Maybe if you are a die-hard Lakers fan, it doesn't seem incongruous. But jersey retirements are for players who rise above and beyond the franchise in the public consciousness. It's for players that EVERYONE talks about. Simply put, Pau is not that guy.
    I totally agree but anxiously await the Lakers retirement of Quinn Cookís jersey

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Even by that standard, is Pau Gasol an iconic Laker? When you think of players that define the Lakers, is he on the same level as Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Magic and the rest? In my mind, he's not just a step behind those guys, he's like half a mile behind them. As in, when I think of the Lakers, someone has to say the name Pau first, and only then will I think, "Oh, yeah, he was a pretty darn good Lakers player, too."

    Maybe if you are a die-hard Lakers fan, it doesn't seem incongruous. But jersey retirements are for players who rise above and beyond the franchise in the public consciousness. It's for players that EVERYONE talks about. Simply put, Pau is not that guy.
    Why are you questioning the Lakers decision to retire the jersey of one of their own players? Shouldnít they know his value waaaaay better than outsiders do?

    They have a wealth of inside information about Pau Gasol and what he meant to the Lakers that nobody outside of the organization could possibly know.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Why are you questioning the Lakers decision to retire the jersey of one of their own players? Shouldnít they know his value waaaaay better than outsiders do?

    They have a wealth of inside information about Pau Gasol and what he meant to the Lakers that nobody outside of the organization could possibly know.
    Who even makes this decision? How many people are still there from when Gasol was? I honestly have no clue.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Who even makes this decision? How many people are still there from when Gasol was? I honestly have no clue.
    Whether the people currently with the Lakers organization were also there during the Gasol years is not particularly relevant, I donít think, because theyíve undoubtedly heard all the stories regardless.

    Obviously the people with the power to make this decision think extremely highly of him and what he contributed to the Los Angeles Lakers. What else really matters?

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