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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Noel seems like a reasonable comp. Not Oden. Oden was a mountain of a man even in high school. I think at Ohio State he played at like 270-280 pounds. He was all power and brute force. His body mass proved to be too much for his feet to handle, which really limited his career as a professional. His body and his game is nothing like Livelyís in my opinion. And letís hope his feet arenít either.
    I would say Noel, Bamba, and James Wiseman sound like the type of comps that make sense based on frame and reported skill set: long, lean athletes with terrific shotblocking ability and questionable shooting skill at this stage.

    All were top-4 recruits in their class (Wiseman #1, Noel #2, and Bamba #4), and all 3 averaged double-digits in PPG and RPG and 3-5 blocks per game in college, Wiseman (ruled ineligible) didn't play much.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Where are people getting the idea that Lively is a good outside shooter and likely to be an effective scorer as a freshman? According to Team Final and its numbers, this past year on the AAU circuit Dereck scored 8.4 ppg. He took 40 3-point shots in 15 games, but only made 11 of them, which is 27%. He also shot only 50% from the line. So while he sure sounds like a terrific defensive player/rim protector and great run and jump athlete, we should probably pump the brakes on the idea that Lively is going to do much right away offensively other than catch lobs and clean up misses off the board as he starts to develop a more advanced offensive game. But the idea that he is anywhere close to Marvin Bagley, who was a highly, highly skilled and effective offensive player from the minute he stepped on campus, is, frankly, absurd.
    So, it looks like Lively will not be OAD. Maybe something close to Mark Williams who is probably a better offensive player(no outside shot) than Lively. Will he be around as long as Shelden who was a defense first player when he arrived at Duke? Unless he develops an outside shot will the NBA career be put on hold or will his defense be enough to make him attractive to NBA Execs? A lot of ???.

    GoDuke!

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    I try to not put any energy into wondering about when kids will leave who haven't even gotten here yet...

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    So, it looks like Lively will not be OAD. Maybe something close to Mark Williams who is probably a better offensive player(no outside shot) than Lively. Will he be around as long as Shelden who was a defense first player when he arrived at Duke? Unless he develops an outside shot will the NBA career be put on hold or will his defense be enough to make him attractive to NBA Execs? A lot of ???.

    GoDuke!
    Heís the #2 recruit in the country. Heís OAD, no question.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    So, it looks like Lively will not be OAD. Maybe something close to Mark Williams who is probably a better offensive player(no outside shot) than Lively. Will he be around as long as Shelden who was a defense first player when he arrived at Duke? Unless he develops an outside shot will the NBA career be put on hold or will his defense be enough to make him attractive to NBA Execs? A lot of ???.

    GoDuke!
    I will be quite surprised if Lively is at Duke for more than one year. Way too highly rated a recruit to expect anything more. Williams was not a top-20 recruit. Lively is easily a top-5 recruit.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Noel seems like a reasonable comp. Not Oden. Oden was a mountain of a man even in high school. I think at Ohio State he played at like 270-280 pounds. He was all power and brute force. His body mass proved to be too much for his feet to handle, which really limited his career as a professional. His body and his game is nothing like Livelyís in my opinion. And letís hope his feet arenít either.
    Tyson Chandler?
    "I don't like them when they are eating my azaleas or rhododendrons or pansies." - Coach K

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Heís the #2 recruit in the country. Heís OAD, no question.
    Right. he's not going to UNC, after all.
    basketball is back, baby!

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    So, it looks like Lively will not be OAD. Maybe something close to Mark Williams who is probably a better offensive player(no outside shot) than Lively. Will he be around as long as Shelden who was a defense first player when he arrived at Duke? Unless he develops an outside shot will the NBA career be put on hold or will his defense be enough to make him attractive to NBA Execs? A lot of ???.

    GoDuke!
    He will be an NBA project - but his length and potential will be too much to pass on.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    So, it looks like Lively will not be OAD. Maybe something close to Mark Williams who is probably a better offensive player(no outside shot) than Lively. Will he be around as long as Shelden who was a defense first player when he arrived at Duke? Unless he develops an outside shot will the NBA career be put on hold or will his defense be enough to make him attractive to NBA Execs? A lot of ???.

    GoDuke!
    Anyone not expecting the #2 recruit in the nation to be an OAD is setting themselves up for disappointment.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Anyone not expecting the #2 recruit in the nation to be an OAD is setting themselves up for disappointment.
    I'm at the point in my life that, I don't care. It is what it is and as Coach K would say, Next play. The reason I asked the question was because from what most posters say, the NBA Execs don't draft a big man that can't shoot and Lively doesn't seem like a good shooter. I guess it's a question of how far will his defense take him with only 1 year in college basketball.

    GoDuke!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    I'm at the point in my life that, I don't care. It is what it is and as Coach K would say, Next play. The reason I asked the question was because from what most posters say, the NBA Execs don't draft a big man that can't shoot and Lively doesn't seem like a good shooter. I guess it's a question of how far will his defense take him with only 1 year in college basketball.

    GoDuke!
    I would love you to be correct and have him around for awhile. I would also love to have him prove doubters wrong and hit knock down shots.

    I guess I can't lose!

    I just expect everyone to leave each year, and sometimes (tho less and less) I'm happily surprised.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    I'm at the point in my life that, I don't care. It is what it is and as Coach K would say, Next play. The reason I asked the question was because from what most posters say, the NBA Execs don't draft a big man that can't shoot and Lively doesn't seem like a good shooter. I guess it's a question of how far will his defense take him with only 1 year in college basketball.
    I don't mean to seem harsh, but have you read any scouting reports on Lively? Where have you seen posters here saying he cannot shoot?

    The major offensive game processed by Dereck Lively (other than dunked lobs and putbacks) is outside shooting. He does not have an array of post moves but is a fairly good and confident shooter from three point range. I'm not saying he's going to get in a shooting contest with Keels or Schutt, but he likes to drift to the perimeter and take uncontested threes when the D sloughs off him. There was one game during the Peach Jam where he hit three or four threes in a row early in the game to turn it into a rout.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    I'm at the point in my life that, I don't care. It is what it is and as Coach K would say, Next play. The reason I asked the question was because from what most posters say, the NBA Execs don't draft a big man that can't shoot and Lively doesn't seem like a good shooter. I guess it's a question of how far will his defense take him with only 1 year in college basketball.

    GoDuke!
    The idea that the NBA won't draft big men that can't shoot is way overblown. DeAndre Ayton can't shoot. He was the #1 pick and is a core player for the team that lost the NBA Finals last season.

    James Wiseman took 1 3-pointer at Memphis in 3 games, drafted 1st overall.

    Jarrett Allen took 7 3-pointers at Texas and was drafted 22nd overall.

    Bam Adebayo took 0 3-pointers at Kentucky and shot 65.3% from the line at Kentucky. Drafted at the end of the lottery.

    Rudy Gobert is one of the best players in the NBA and has attempted 7 three-pointers in his career. If every player in the NBA was suddenly a free agent and there was a draft, Gobert would be one of if not the first center drafted.

    I could go on. Almost every center drafted in the last decade wasn't a shooter in college. What NBA teams want, as a baseline, for their centers:

    - Defensive presence, in particular shot blocking
    - Rim running / vertical lob threat
    - Switchable on defense, able to defend forwards, wings, and maybe even guards without getting exposed
    - Be fast end-to-end
    - Be able to finish at the rim off the pick-and-roll
    - Pass the ball

    If you can pick-and-pop off a PNR, even better. If you can spot up and drain a set jumper, wonderful. But if you can't do the things above, being able to shoot it at 6'9" or 7'1" doesn't matter. Lauri Markannen can really shoot the ball and is a legit 7'0. In spite of that, he hasn't proven that he can defend anyone, so he was traded by the Bulls because Patrick Williams can defend at the 4 while Nikola Vucevic can actually play the center position. Jahlil Okafor can really score around the rim. He's been a consistent 60%+ shooter from 2, which is just as efficient as a 40% 3-point shooter. In spite of that, he can't get consistent minutes because he can't do most of the things I listed.

    Lively, by all accounts, can do most of these things. On top of that, he's got a promising jumper. It's not a proven skill, but you can project that he becomes a shooter over time. So that means he can do almost everything an NBA team wants out of a center in today's game and has the potential to do some other valuable things. That's why he's a top prospect.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA

    "Live in the present because it is a gift"

    It seems that once a recruit commits to Duke we end up talking about how long he will stay with the program.

    Let's all enjoy this year's team and then next year's team with Dereck and then worry about the roster after that.

    A great man once said "A season is a lifetime" so lets' enjoy each lifetime.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD83 View Post
    A great man once said "A season is a lifetime" so lets' enjoy each lifetime.
    Following Duke BB quickly takes one past the 9 life limit...

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD83 View Post
    It seems that once a recruit commits to Duke we end up talking about how long he will stay with the program.

    Let's all enjoy this year's team and then next year's team with Dereck and then worry about the roster after that.

    A great man once said "A season is a lifetime" so lets' enjoy each lifetime.
    Yes, Womble Theorem 11 is that we shouldn't worry about when guys will leave who haven't even gotten here yet. That can also be extended to guys who are here, but haven't played yet. Speculating on Keels leaving seems pointless until we see what he can do...

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I don't mean to seem harsh, but have you read any scouting reports on Lively? Where have you seen posters here saying he cannot shoot?

    The major offensive game processed by Dereck Lively (other than dunked lobs and putbacks) is outside shooting. He does not have an array of post moves but is a fairly good and confident shooter from three point range. I'm not saying he's going to get in a shooting contest with Keels or Schutt, but he likes to drift to the perimeter and take uncontested threes when the D sloughs off him. There was one game during the Peach Jam where he hit three or four threes in a row early in the game to turn it into a rout.
    Not being harsh, if you look at tommy's post #65 on September 21, 2021, he/she gives shooting stats Dereck had in AAU play this past year. And as I said, I don't care one way or the other if Dereck goes pro after his freshmen year at Duke. I've not complained about OAD. Do I miss four year players? Sure I do but I'm smart enough to know that's college basketball these days. I'm just glad He picked Duke.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Yes, Womble Theorem 11 is that we shouldn't worry about when guys will leave who haven't even gotten here yet. That can also be extended to guys who are here, but haven't played yet. Speculating on Keels leaving seems pointless until we see what he can do...
    some people just need something to worry about...Ö...

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Well

    Quote Originally Posted by jv001 View Post
    Not being harsh, if you look at tommy's post #65 on September 21, 2021, he/she gives shooting stats Dereck had in AAU play this past year. And as I said, I don't care one way or the other if Dereck goes pro after his freshmen year at Duke. I've not complained about OAD. Do I miss four year players? Sure I do but I'm smart enough to know that's college basketball these days. I'm just glad He picked Duke.
    I know that we, as Duke fans, are blessed, but this really drives home the point.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    The idea that the NBA won't draft big men that can't shoot is way overblown.
    I agree with you, but I also think that being able to shoot doesn't just mean shooting three pointers. Hitting a 12 foot jump shot makes a big difference for a big man as far as whether he'll be able to spread the floor on offense. But defending in space is probably the biggest differentiator between a 7 footer being drafted in the lottery versus going undrafted. Vernon Carey couldn't do it and his draft stock suffered. Lively is reportedly excellent at defending guards (for his size) and he'll have plenty of chances to demonstrate that ability given how much we switch on defense. Any notion of him staying multiple years is borderline absurd IMO (no offense to anyone who believes this might happen).

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