View Poll Results: Who drafted the best team of Dukies?

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  • Donald's team - Zion, Shelden, JJ, Singler, Kyrie

    16 12.31%
  • Jason's team - Shane, JWill, Johnny, Elton, Dunleavy

    58 44.62%
  • Sam's team - Grant, Christian, Bobby, Marvin, Nolan

    56 43.08%
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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Whoa... what happened? Who voted? Sam was like 2 or 3 votes ahead of me and it felt like the momentum was all going his way when... BANG... I scored a slew of new votes and now my team is in the lead. I want to know who is helping my crew of 99-01 stars combined with 1980s legends to turn the tide!
    Some folks must have finally run the analytics on Shane.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazindw View Post
    I hope you didn't give Sam your vote, cuz you just described my team!!
    I didn't Donald. You got my vote!
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    I didn't Donald. You got my vote!
    Must spread sporks, but you da man!
    Check out the DBR Podcast!

    2003-2004 HLM
    Duke | Mirecourt | Detroit| The U | USA

  4. #84
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    Nashville
    For those of you thinking Shane is going to shut down Laettner (lol), who is Elton going to guard? I suppose he could stay in the middle and let Bagley roam and fire away from outside if he wants? But then you've got Dunleavy on Grant, who will score one meeeelion points. I think both of those are pretty bad matchups for Jason (defensively, I should add). Elton could more than make up for what Bagley scores, but Dunleavy won't match Grant's actual one million points.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    Sam gets my vote. Well, his team does. Zion is unstoppable inside and out, JJJ bombs away to clear space, and Kyrie gets them both the ball. Kyrie's drive and dish to Zion (or Shelden) is almost too easy. This team is all but unbeatable. And I didn't even mention Singler - he position is winner!
    I do think my life would be complete if I could see Kyrie and Zion running a pick and roll together. Holy moly.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by brlftz View Post
    I do think my life would be complete if I could see Kyrie and Zion running a pick and roll together. Holy moly.
    Fast breaks would just be unfair.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Whoa... what happened? Who voted? Sam was like 2 or 3 votes ahead of me and it felt like the momentum was all going his way when... BANG... I scored a slew of new votes and now my team is in the lead. I want to know who is helping my crew of 99-01 stars combined with 1980s legends to turn the tide!
    I provided one of those late votes. I decided to look at individual matchups as an organizing principle, and my rationale was thus...

    PG: I view J-Will and Kyrie as very similar (both can distribute, but both wreak havoc with their ability to score via dribble penetration or raining from outside; and both tend to be less interested in defense, though both can turn up the pressure on that end of the floor when necessary), but give the advantage to the junior J-Will over the freshman Kyrie. J-Will versus Hurley becomes more interesting. Hurley is masterful at distributing the ball to his teammates, and is generally a better defender IMO, while J-Will excels at scoring. I view this matchup largely as a stalemate—not necessarily in the box score, but in the arena of how many points each ultimately generates for his team via everything they do on floor.

    SG: At first glance, this seems like an obvious choice—JJ. However, JD was at Duke at the dawn of the 3-point era, and thus he's not really given credit for his outside game. No, he's not the prolific 3-point weapon that JJ was, but he was more of a versatile scoring machine along the lines of a J-Will, Kyrie, GHill, etc., able to both rain from outside and dribble penetrate seemingly at will with his athleticism. Had he played later in the 3-point era, we may have seen JD cultivate a more deadly outside game, but we'll never know. I haven't mentioned Nolan because I think he's a wonderful player, but just a tad below these other two Duke legends. Given a choice between JJ and JD, I concluded that both will score their points (again, largely a stalemate), but give the definite advantage to JD in the defense department [he could definitely lock an opponent down... just ask David Rivers].

    C: This is where Sam definitely has the advantage. I'm not sure how anyone could give the advantage to Shelden or Elton over perhaps the greatest college basketball competitor ever (note, I didn't say player... but my undergrad days coincided with Laettner's at Duke, and there's just no forgetting the ice in his veins at clutch time—the last-second daggers that took down UConn and Kentucky, the perfect game against the latter, the ability to take Shaq outside to dilute his effectiveness...). That said, Shelden was the landlord, so would definitely make life difficult for the other scorers on the floor whenever they choose to venture into the lane, and Elton was no chump either when it came to defending the paint, and had an uncanny ability to use his bulk to position and score down low. So the edge goes to Sam here, but the others will certainly find ways to impact games.

    PF: Yes, I know... K doesn't play positions. But in an actual game you've gotta match up with someone on the floor. For me, this matchup becomes Zion and Shane and Marvin, which makes it a nightmare to figure out. As others have noted, Zion's athleticism and skill is legendary—he's a freak of nature who can basically do anything on the floor. But he's also still a freshman, and is unfortunate to be slotted into a matchup with one of the greatest and most cerebral defenders the college game has ever seen in Battier. I consider Battier akin to an eraser—he can cancel out mistakes made by his own teammates and/or spectacular play from opposing teammates. Given that we only saw freshman versions of the very talented Zion and Marvin, I have to give the edge to the senior Battier here any day of the week.

    SF: Another fascinating matchup to gauge with GHill, Singler and Dunleavy. Singler and Dunleavy were the quintessential quiet warriors who could sneak up on you and absolutely destroy you before you knew what was happening. That said, GHill is akin to Zion [as others have noted] in being an absolute do-anything athletic wild card on the floor. Giving consideration to how we tend to play defense, with all the switching and help that goes on, I actually think GHill would often find himself in matchups with Zion, thereby enabling his team to decrease Zion's effectiveness in those games (the best way to cancel out a freak athlete is with a freak athlete). I also lament the fact that Jason has Dunleavy here instead of Ferry, which would make this matchup far more difficult to decide (I suspect this is a product of being too close to the 2001 team from having worked on the podcast focused on that NC season). I give the definite edge to GHill, given Ferry is on the bench.

    Bench: I give the edge here to Jason, bringing in prolific scoring Ferry and distributor/penetrator/lock-down defender Duhon along with the somewhat versatile freshman Tatum [a nice addition, but IMO the weakest of the nine players coming off the benches... let's just consider that for a moment]. They get the slight edge over Donald's bench of Boozer [who, incidentally, was my next-door neighbor during his last year at Duke—he and his GF lived in the apartment next to ours... he was always very sweet to my eldest daughter whenever we'd see them outside], Scheyer and Jones (who can bring some defensive intensity to the floor when he gives Kyrie a spell) as well as the versatile Deng, the Alaskan Assassin, and Jahlil.

    Add it all up and, like I said below, you have a series of 7 game slugfests that would be supremely fun to watch. But in the end if you force me to pick a winner, it just has to come down to Jason's and Sam's teams, both extremely close. In the end, I just saw way too many points generators on Jason's team, and the most effective defensive eraser to counteract that is... also on Jason's team. So I had to vote for them.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    I provided one of those late votes. I decided to look at individual matchups as an organizing principle, and my rationale was thus...

    PG: I view J-Will and Kyrie as very similar (both can distribute, but both wreak havoc with their ability to score via dribble penetration or raining from outside; and both tend to be less interested in defense, though both can turn up the pressure on that end of the floor when necessary), but give the advantage to the junior J-Will over the freshman Kyrie. J-Will versus Hurley becomes more interesting. Hurley is masterful at distributing the ball to his teammates, and is generally a better defender IMO, while J-Will excels at scoring. I view this matchup largely as a stalemate—not necessarily in the box score, but in the arena of how many points each ultimately generates for his team via everything they do on floor.

    SG: At first glance, this seems like an obvious choice—JJ. However, JD was at Duke at the dawn of the 3-point era, and thus he's not really given credit for his outside game. No, he's not the prolific 3-point weapon that JJ was, but he was more of a versatile scoring machine along the lines of a J-Will, Kyrie, GHill, etc., able to both rain from outside and dribble penetrate seemingly at will with his athleticism. Had he played later in the 3-point era, we may have seen JD cultivate a more deadly outside game, but we'll never know. I haven't mentioned Nolan because I think he's a wonderful player, but just a tad below these other two Duke legends. Given a choice between JJ and JD, I concluded that both will score their points (again, largely a stalemate), but give the definite advantage to JD in the defense department [he could definitely lock an opponent down... just ask David Rivers].

    C: This is where Sam definitely has the advantage. I'm not sure how anyone could give the advantage to Shelden or Elton over perhaps the greatest college basketball competitor ever (note, I didn't say player... but my undergrad days coincided with Laettner's at Duke, and there's just no forgetting the ice in his veins at clutch time—the last-second daggers that took down UConn and Kentucky, the perfect game against the latter, the ability to take Shaq outside to dilute his effectiveness...). That said, Shelden was the landlord, so would definitely make life difficult for the other scorers on the floor whenever they choose to venture into the lane, and Elton was no chump either when it came to defending the paint, and had an uncanny ability to use his bulk to position and score down low. So the edge goes to Sam here, but the others will certainly find ways to impact games.

    PF: Yes, I know... K doesn't play positions. But in an actual game you've gotta match up with someone on the floor. For me, this matchup becomes Zion and Shane and Marvin, which makes it a nightmare to figure out. As others have noted, Zion's athleticism and skill is legendary—he's a freak of nature who can basically do anything on the floor. But he's also still a freshman, and is unfortunate to be slotted into a matchup with one of the greatest and most cerebral defenders the college game has ever seen in Battier. I consider Battier akin to an eraser—he can cancel out mistakes made by his own teammates and/or spectacular play from opposing teammates. Given that we only saw freshman versions of the very talented Zion and Marvin, I have to give the edge to the senior Battier here any day of the week.

    SF: Another fascinating matchup to gauge with GHill, Singler and Dunleavy. Singler and Dunleavy were the quintessential quiet warriors who could sneak up on you and absolutely destroy you before you knew what was happening. That said, GHill is akin to Zion [as others have noted] in being an absolute do-anything athletic wild card on the floor. Giving consideration to how we tend to play defense, with all the switching and help that goes on, I actually think GHill would often find himself in matchups with Zion, thereby enabling his team to decrease Zion's effectiveness in those games (the best way to cancel out a freak athlete is with a freak athlete). I also lament the fact that Jason has Dunleavy here instead of Ferry, which would make this matchup far more difficult to decide (I suspect this is a product of being too close to the 2001 team from having worked on the podcast focused on that NC season). I give the definite edge to GHill, given Ferry is on the bench.

    Bench: I give the edge here to Jason, bringing in prolific scoring Ferry and distributor/penetrator/lock-down defender Duhon along with the somewhat versatile freshman Tatum [a nice addition, but IMO the weakest of the nine players coming off the benches... let's just consider that for a moment]. They get the slight edge over Donald's bench of Boozer [who, incidentally, was my next-door neighbor during his last year at Duke—he and his GF lived in the apartment next to ours... he was always very sweet to my eldest daughter whenever we'd see them outside], Scheyer and Jones (who can bring some defensive intensity to the floor when he gives Kyrie a spell) as well as the versatile Deng, the Alaskan Assassin, and Jahlil.

    Add it all up and, like I said below, you have a series of 7 game slugfests that would be supremely fun to watch. But in the end if you force me to pick a winner, it just has to come down to Jason's and Sam's teams, both extremely close. In the end, I just saw way too many points generators on Jason's team, and the most effective defensive eraser to counteract that is... also on Jason's team. So I had to vote for them.
    Hard to argue with the genius on display in this post
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa John View Post
    I provided one of those late votes. I decided to look at individual matchups as an organizing principle, and my rationale was thus...

    PG: I view J-Will and Kyrie as very similar (both can distribute, but both wreak havoc with their ability to score via dribble penetration or raining from outside; and both tend to be less interested in defense, though both can turn up the pressure on that end of the floor when necessary), but give the advantage to the junior J-Will over the freshman Kyrie. J-Will versus Hurley becomes more interesting. Hurley is masterful at distributing the ball to his teammates, and is generally a better defender IMO, while J-Will excels at scoring. I view this matchup largely as a stalemate—not necessarily in the box score, but in the arena of how many points each ultimately generates for his team via everything they do on floor.

    SG: At first glance, this seems like an obvious choice—JJ. However, JD was at Duke at the dawn of the 3-point era, and thus he's not really given credit for his outside game. No, he's not the prolific 3-point weapon that JJ was, but he was more of a versatile scoring machine along the lines of a J-Will, Kyrie, GHill, etc., able to both rain from outside and dribble penetrate seemingly at will with his athleticism. Had he played later in the 3-point era, we may have seen JD cultivate a more deadly outside game, but we'll never know. I haven't mentioned Nolan because I think he's a wonderful player, but just a tad below these other two Duke legends. Given a choice between JJ and JD, I concluded that both will score their points (again, largely a stalemate), but give the definite advantage to JD in the defense department [he could definitely lock an opponent down... just ask David Rivers].

    C: This is where Sam definitely has the advantage. I'm not sure how anyone could give the advantage to Shelden or Elton over perhaps the greatest college basketball competitor ever (note, I didn't say player... but my undergrad days coincided with Laettner's at Duke, and there's just no forgetting the ice in his veins at clutch time—the last-second daggers that took down UConn and Kentucky, the perfect game against the latter, the ability to take Shaq outside to dilute his effectiveness...). That said, Shelden was the landlord, so would definitely make life difficult for the other scorers on the floor whenever they choose to venture into the lane, and Elton was no chump either when it came to defending the paint, and had an uncanny ability to use his bulk to position and score down low. So the edge goes to Sam here, but the others will certainly find ways to impact games.

    PF: Yes, I know... K doesn't play positions. But in an actual game you've gotta match up with someone on the floor. For me, this matchup becomes Zion and Shane and Marvin, which makes it a nightmare to figure out. As others have noted, Zion's athleticism and skill is legendary—he's a freak of nature who can basically do anything on the floor. But he's also still a freshman, and is unfortunate to be slotted into a matchup with one of the greatest and most cerebral defenders the college game has ever seen in Battier. I consider Battier akin to an eraser—he can cancel out mistakes made by his own teammates and/or spectacular play from opposing teammates. Given that we only saw freshman versions of the very talented Zion and Marvin, I have to give the edge to the senior Battier here any day of the week.

    SF: Another fascinating matchup to gauge with GHill, Singler and Dunleavy. Singler and Dunleavy were the quintessential quiet warriors who could sneak up on you and absolutely destroy you before you knew what was happening. That said, GHill is akin to Zion [as others have noted] in being an absolute do-anything athletic wild card on the floor. Giving consideration to how we tend to play defense, with all the switching and help that goes on, I actually think GHill would often find himself in matchups with Zion, thereby enabling his team to decrease Zion's effectiveness in those games (the best way to cancel out a freak athlete is with a freak athlete). I also lament the fact that Jason has Dunleavy here instead of Ferry, which would make this matchup far more difficult to decide (I suspect this is a product of being too close to the 2001 team from having worked on the podcast focused on that NC season). I give the definite edge to GHill, given Ferry is on the bench.

    Bench: I give the edge here to Jason, bringing in prolific scoring Ferry and distributor/penetrator/lock-down defender Duhon along with the somewhat versatile freshman Tatum [a nice addition, but IMO the weakest of the nine players coming off the benches... let's just consider that for a moment]. They get the slight edge over Donald's bench of Boozer [who, incidentally, was my next-door neighbor during his last year at Duke—he and his GF lived in the apartment next to ours... he was always very sweet to my eldest daughter whenever we'd see them outside], Scheyer and Jones (who can bring some defensive intensity to the floor when he gives Kyrie a spell) as well as the versatile Deng, the Alaskan Assassin, and Jahlil.

    Add it all up and, like I said below, you have a series of 7 game slugfests that would be supremely fun to watch. But in the end if you force me to pick a winner, it just has to come down to Jason's and Sam's teams, both extremely close. In the end, I just saw way too many points generators on Jason's team, and the most effective defensive eraser to counteract that is... also on Jason's team. So I had to vote for them.
    I have some disagreements with this, of course.

    PG: I think you very much undersell Kyrie, here. Even in only his eleven-game stretch (eight starts) as a freshman, he could wreak havoc. His PPG was a bit less than JWill, but so were his minutes played, primarily due to the injury (and I don't believe the intent here is for him to be injured on our hypothetical teams). On a per minute basis, JWill scored a respectable .58 points. But Kyrie scored .63. Kyrie's overall FG percentage was higher, and his 3-point percentage was MUCH higher (.53/.46 v. .45/.39). Both got fouled a lot, but Kyrie got fouled a lot more (4.7FT attempts for JWill, v. 6.5 a/g for Kyrie), and while JWill downed a decent 67% of FTs, Kyrie sank 90% of his. JWill did have nearly 2 more assists per game, but I don't think that makes up for the rest. Hurley is closer, and MUCH better with assists, as you'd expect (2 ahead of even JWill), so that comparison is closer and I probably give the nod to Hurley, but JWill - retired jersey and all - is clearly third best in in a straight-up comparison, IMO.

    SG: I think you considerably oversell Dawkins, here, at least on the offensive end. Yes, he doesn't get "credit" for his pro career, but if we are hypothesizing about what he would have done in a different college era, Dawkins played plenty of pro ball all of which was in the 3-point era, and he was not great from deep (just 33% for his career). He also did shoot some 3s in college, so if you want to give him credit for his 35% in college I won't complain, but it is worth remembering that the line at that time was a full two feet closer then (17'9") than it was for JJ (19'9") or than it is now (22'2" - a distance still shorter than where JJ later made his money at 23'9"). As a driver and creator, yes, Dawkins was great, and as a defender, even more so. But the obvious choice on a team with Kyrie is JJ, and Dawkins complicates rather than enhances the picture for JWill, so I think the obvious choice really is obvious. Sorry, Nolan, you're a good guy, but these are two of the all-time greats.

    C: I think your analysis is spot-on, here. Laettner is clearly top of the heap, and Shelden probably gets the defensive edge over Brand. Head-to-head, though, while those other guys will get theirs, they are both likely going to have a fairly tough time even staying on the floor against Christian, who will relentlessly pull them out of position and take them off the dribble or shoot from distance.

    PF: I would love to see a Battier-Zion matchup, but I just flat disagree than Shane's defensive prowess could stifle the beast that is Zion Williamson. He was the most efficient scorer by a pretty good distance in the history of all of college basketball. He did that mostly by taking the bulk of his shots from very, very close range. Shane's stock-in-trade was taking the charge, but he lived in an era that did not include a restricted area. Of course, he's a very smart player, and he proved himself able to adapt to a world which did have the restricted area, but some of his defensive edge was blunted in the NBA, and he never faced a player like Zion, simply because there isn't one. Zion, meanwhile, has proven he can take on the very best defenders the world has to offer and have plenty of success against them. I think Zion wins this one comfortably. And again, with all due respect to Marvin Bagley, he is a convincing third.

    SF: I agree with your analysis here, too. Grant wins easily, and Singler and Dunleavy are rough equivalents with very different styles, Singler being better defensively and on the boards, but with Dunleavy a better pure shooter. I do think the fact that you mention Zion here is a recognition that you undervalued him in the prior section.

    Bench: On a pure player-by-player basis, it is hard to argue with Danny Ferry as the best of the lot. But I think all the benches are pretty good complements to what each team has and needs. Donald's team has a backup defender and post scorer (and you'll need those fouls to give against Christian), and you get a smart all-around team leader in Scheyer, plus a lock-down on-ball defender in Tyus to back up Kyrie or play off ball when JJ gets a rest. On Jason's team, you get Danny Ferry (who realistically probably plays starter minutes) as a do-it-all big, and you also get an outstanding backup ball handler and defender to spell JWill, and a player in Jason Tatum who will actually struggle to find minutes in this lineup. Sam's team picked up the AA to shoot lights out when Nolan needs a break, a banging big to keep the opposing banging bigs honest and keep Christian out of foul trouble, and Deng who can spell either Grant or Dunleavy without much drop in production.

    I love Jason's overall team depth, and I love the proven Hurley-Hill-Laettner combo, but to me, Zion on the same team with JJ and Kyrie is going to be a juggernaut. I voted for Donald's team.

  10. #90
    In case anyone gets tired of going back to the first page to see the draft -

    Donald
    1. Zion Williamson – 4
    6. Shelden Williams - 5
    7. JJ Redick - 2
    12. Kyle Singler - 3
    13. Kyrie Irving – 1
    18. Carlos Boozer – big
    19. Jon Scheyer - guard
    24. Tyus Jones - guard

    Jason
    2. Shane Battier - 4
    5. Jay Will – 1
    8. Johnny Dawkins – 2
    11. Elton Brand - 5
    14. Mike Dunleavy - 3
    17. Danny Ferry - big
    20. Chris Duhon - guard
    23. Jayson Tatum – wing

    Sam
    3. Grant Hill – 3
    4. Christian Laettner - 5
    9. Bobby Hurley – 1
    10. Marvin Bagley – 4
    15. Nolan Smith – 2
    16. Luol Deng – wing
    21. Trajan Langdon – wing
    22. Jahlil Okafor - big

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    I have some disagreements with this, of course.

    PG: I think you very much undersell Kyrie, here. Even in only his eleven-game stretch (eight starts) as a freshman, he could wreak havoc. His PPG was a bit less than JWill, but so were his minutes played, primarily due to the injury (and I don't believe the intent here is for him to be injured on our hypothetical teams). On a per minute basis, JWill scored a respectable .58 points. But Kyrie scored .63. Kyrie's overall FG percentage was higher, and his 3-point percentage was MUCH higher (.53/.46 v. .45/.39). Both got fouled a lot, but Kyrie got fouled a lot more (4.7FT attempts for JWill, v. 6.5 a/g for Kyrie), and while JWill downed a decent 67% of FTs, Kyrie sank 90% of his. JWill did have nearly 2 more assists per game, but I don't think that makes up for the rest. Hurley is closer, and MUCH better with assists, as you'd expect (2 ahead of even JWill), so that comparison is closer and I probably give the nod to Hurley, but JWill - retired jersey and all - is clearly third best in in a straight-up comparison, IMO.

    SG: I think you considerably oversell Dawkins, here, at least on the offensive end. Yes, he doesn't get "credit" for his pro career, but if we are hypothesizing about what he would have done in a different college era, Dawkins played plenty of pro ball all of which was in the 3-point era, and he was not great from deep (just 33% for his career). He also did shoot some 3s in college, so if you want to give him credit for his 35% in college I won't complain, but it is worth remembering that the line at that time was a full two feet closer then (17'9") than it was for JJ (19'9") or than it is now (22'2" - a distance still shorter than where JJ later made his money at 23'9"). As a driver and creator, yes, Dawkins was great, and as a defender, even more so. But the obvious choice on a team with Kyrie is JJ, and Dawkins complicates rather than enhances the picture for JWill, so I think the obvious choice really is obvious. Sorry, Nolan, you're a good guy, but these are two of the all-time greats.

    C: I think your analysis is spot-on, here. Laettner is clearly top of the heap, and Shelden probably gets the defensive edge over Brand. Head-to-head, though, while those other guys will get theirs, they are both likely going to have a fairly tough time even staying on the floor against Christian, who will relentlessly pull them out of position and take them off the dribble or shoot from distance.

    PF: I would love to see a Battier-Zion matchup, but I just flat disagree than Shane's defensive prowess could stifle the beast that is Zion Williamson. He was the most efficient scorer by a pretty good distance in the history of all of college basketball. He did that mostly by taking the bulk of his shots from very, very close range. Shane's stock-in-trade was taking the charge, but he lived in an era that did not include a restricted area. Of course, he's a very smart player, and he proved himself able to adapt to a world which did have the restricted area, but some of his defensive edge was blunted in the NBA, and he never faced a player like Zion, simply because there isn't one. Zion, meanwhile, has proven he can take on the very best defenders the world has to offer and have plenty of success against them. I think Zion wins this one comfortably. And again, with all due respect to Marvin Bagley, he is a convincing third.

    SF: I agree with your analysis here, too. Grant wins easily, and Singler and Dunleavy are rough equivalents with very different styles, Singler being better defensively and on the boards, but with Dunleavy a better pure shooter. I do think the fact that you mention Zion here is a recognition that you undervalued him in the prior section.

    Bench: On a pure player-by-player basis, it is hard to argue with Danny Ferry as the best of the lot. But I think all the benches are pretty good complements to what each team has and needs. Donald's team has a backup defender and post scorer (and you'll need those fouls to give against Christian), and you get a smart all-around team leader in Scheyer, plus a lock-down on-ball defender in Tyus to back up Kyrie or play off ball when JJ gets a rest. On Jason's team, you get Danny Ferry (who realistically probably plays starter minutes) as a do-it-all big, and you also get an outstanding backup ball handler and defender to spell JWill, and a player in Jason Tatum who will actually struggle to find minutes in this lineup. Sam's team picked up the AA to shoot lights out when Nolan needs a break, a banging big to keep the opposing banging bigs honest and keep Christian out of foul trouble, and Deng who can spell either Grant or Dunleavy without much drop in production.

    I love Jason's overall team depth, and I love the proven Hurley-Hill-Laettner combo, but to me, Zion on the same team with JJ and Kyrie is going to be a juggernaut. I voted for Donald's team.
    Not gonna argue with you, as you make excellent points as well. I likely did oversell JD, but he was my first favorite Dukie when I started following them, so I probably have a similar bias to Jason's 2001 team bias there. Like I said, it would be pure, rapturous joy to watch these matchups in reality. Someone needs to build the simulation!

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Putting together a team that would play well together on the floor is different from just choosing the five best players. In these all-star types of exercises I tend to lean towards the best two-way players because you know you're going to have plenty of offense so the main question is how well you can slow down your opponent. Having five elite scorers together isn't going to work because there's only one ball, so you need some guys who can act as role players and excel without dominating the ball. Ultimately though, I voted for Sam's team because having Hurley at point gives you the distributor and leader you need to maximize everyone else's talents. Kyrie and J-Will were unstoppable offensively but having them take all the shots means you're neutralizing the talents at the other positions.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    The fact that I got Brand after Sam had just taken Bagley is a crime against humanity. But, I think Sam sorta boxed himself in when he put Laettner at the 5. It meant he really could not pick Brand because ain't no way Elton is playing the 4. That was part of the challenge in this contest, slotting guys into proper positions. It became a bit easier with our benches as we could move in a more general kinda fashion and merely needed to make sure we each had at least one bigman and one perimeter sub.
    I voted for Sam's team anyway, but I think the Brand-Laettner front court would have worked. Yes both played center in their time at Duke, but Brand was a good shooter out to the FT line, while Laettner extended all the way to three. In other words, on offense they could both rotate between low block and stepping out when the other had an opportunity. The defense can't leave either open. And given time and opportunity, I wonder if Brand could have approached Bagley's outside shooting (39% on 1.8 attempts per game) given that they had similar FT percentages (Brand 67%, Bagley 62%). But that remains unknown, as Brand never attempted a three pointer at Duke.

    On defense it's a little trickier--it's an older look with two traditional bigs. But Brand wasn't exactly slow, and neither was Laettner. While I'd agree Bagley is quicker than either, he was not a good defender on the perimeter--to the point where K had to switch to a 2-3 zone. In other words, I don't think Brand or Laettner would be much worse at trying to keep up with perimeter-oriented forwards. And Brand brings way more to the table as a shot blocker and low post defender than Bagley does.

    And finally, if Sam had taken Brand, then that would keep Elton off of a competitor's team.

    I still think Sam's team is the best because of the Laettner-Hill-Hurley core. And that team still has Luol Deng on the bench ready to slot in for Bagley, and that leads to some pretty lethal lineups with excellent perimeter defense. But if he had taken Brand over Bagley then I think this whole discussion would be over.

  14. #94
    Jason started burying his own Jayson Tatum pick the moment he made it, but at this point you're undervaluing Tatum in college. He missed the first two months of the season and came on a bit slowly, but by March he was a true star. Check out his month by month splits:

    Month PPG RPG
    December 15.8 7.5
    January 16.2 6.5
    February 16.2 8.25
    March 19.1 7.1

    That's a guy who got better as the season went on, and even on a team with a breakout Luke Kennard and veteran Grayson Allen, Tatum had established himself as the best player on the team. By March, Tatum was outscoring Kennard (19.1 to 18.1 ppg) and was a much better defender.

    Also, a hill I will die on: Tatum, not Kennard, should have been MVP of the 2017 ACC Tournament. His stats were better and Tatum made all the clutch plays down the stretch in the final. I watched the games, you can't convince me Kennard had a bigger impact in that tournament than Tatum did.

    In short, don't sell Jayson Tatum short, he was a fantastic all around player in college who got a late start and was just beginning to assert himself when the season ended. If you get March 2017 Jayson Tatum then you got a heck of an 8th man.

  15. #95
    I still can't believe that Sam's team isn't winning running away with this.

    Do we already forget that Laettner, Hill and Hurley took down the Running Rebs in '91? Larry Johnson was amazing and the Rebs had five players from that team drafted and four in the first round and went wire to wire as the #1 team in the country and had only one game that was within 10 points at the buzzer. I don't really need to tell you about '92 team, do I?

    As good as Laettner and Hurley were, let's not forget about Grant Hill. Go look at the '94 roster and tell me that team had ANY business getting to the NCAA Championship game. The only reason they got there was Grant Hill.

    You guys can talk about stats all you want, but I'm going to take guys who win when it counts and Sam has three of them on his team. Only Battier I would rate as comparable to Hill, Hurley and Laettner in that department.

    * I may be falling to the 4-year bias, *shrug*
    ** At the same time, the stats junkies are looking at stats from the one and done era which saw very few talented upperclassmen on opposing teams.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I still can't believe that Sam's team isn't winning running away with this.

    Do we already forget that Laettner, Hill and Hurley took down the Running Rebs in '91? Larry Johnson was amazing and the Rebs had five players from that team drafted and four in the first round and went wire to wire as the #1 team in the country and had only one game that was within 10 points at the buzzer. I don't really need to tell you about '92 team, do I?

    As good as Laettner and Hurley were, let's not forget about Grant Hill. Go look at the '94 roster and tell me that team had ANY business getting to the NCAA Championship game. The only reason they got there was Grant Hill.

    You guys can talk about stats all you want, but I'm going to take guys who win when it counts and Sam has three of them on his team.

    * I may be falling to the 4-year bias, *shrug*
    ** At the same time, the stats junkies are looking at stats from the one and done era which saw very few talented upperclassmen on opposing teams.
    The Running Rebels didn't have Shane Battier or Johnny Dawkins. I agree with whoever it was upthread that commented about Shane being an eraser. That is very much a factor when I imagine these teams going head to head. I was leaning towards Sam for a lot of the same reasons as you initially, but I kept coming back to Jason's team which I think has just a little more umph to it.

    Only Battier I would rate as comparable to Hill, Hurley and Laettner in that department.
    I think you are drastically underrating Johnny Dawkins, then, who IMO was clearly a better player than Hurley at a minimum (or possibly you forgot he was on the roster?).

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by PackMan97 View Post
    I still can't believe that Sam's team isn't winning running away with this.

    Do we already forget that Laettner, Hill and Hurley took down the Running Rebs in '91? Larry Johnson was amazing and the Rebs had five players from that team drafted and four in the first round and went wire to wire as the #1 team in the country and had only one game that was within 10 points at the buzzer. I don't really need to tell you about '92 team, do I?

    As good as Laettner and Hurley were, let's not forget about Grant Hill. Go look at the '94 roster and tell me that team had ANY business getting to the NCAA Championship game. The only reason they got there was Grant Hill.

    You guys can talk about stats all you want, but I'm going to take guys who win when it counts and Sam has three of them on his team. Only Battier I would rate as comparable to Hill, Hurley and Laettner in that department.

    * I may be falling to the 4-year bias, *shrug*
    ** At the same time, the stats junkies are looking at stats from the one and done era which saw very few talented upperclassmen on opposing teams.
    Bingo on every bit of this. I am in absolute shock that Sam’s team is not winning by a mile. UNC has always been good at hacking and getting away with it, but this is ridiculous.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    I have 5... FIVE... guys who were absolutely the best player in college basketball their final season at Duke -- Dawkins, Ferry, Brand, Battier, and JWill. Five Player of the Year winners.

    Sam has one, Christian Laettner. Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson won all the awards Grant Hill's senior season.

    I can't believe no one is talking more about Elton Brand, who was an absolute beast in 1999. He was dominant in a way you just don't see very often in college.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I have 5... FIVE... guys who were absolutely the best player in college basketball their final season at Duke -- Dawkins, Ferry, Brand, Battier, and JWill. Five Player of the Year winners.
    ...and that's why they'll lose. Give me a team over talent. Besides, I like the pre-back injury Coach K over the post-injury Coach K. I know that's not part of the equation, but I'm just throwing it out there.

    ...can anyone get me each players record against UNC? We all know that's the only game that really matters

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I have 5... FIVE... guys who were absolutely the best player in college basketball their final season at Duke -- Dawkins, Ferry, Brand, Battier, and JWill. Five Player of the Year winners.

    Sam has one, Christian Laettner. Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson won all the awards Grant Hill's senior season.

    I can't believe no one is talking more about Elton Brand, who was an absolute beast in 1999. He was dominant in a way you just don't see very often in college.
    So it is close, I don't think your team wins by a landslide, but people are definitely underrating those 5 guys in a big way. It is almost like those late 90s/2000s guys are too far back to benefit from recency bias, but too recent to benefit from a nostalgia boost. JWill and Brand were so good (obviously so were the other guys).

    Edit: Almost makes me want to spawn a spinoff discussion - who are the most underrated former Duke stars (so not guys like Dave McClure)

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