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  1. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    It is real easy to think of the 2017 team as Tatum's, but Kennard was arguably that team's best player.
    “Arguably” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. If you said “arguably that team’s best *offensive* player,” I could see the argument. Tatum was clearly the better all around player. He wasn’t the defender that he became in the NBA, but we was not the total liability that Luke was.
    Carolina delenda est

  2. #1102
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldBattleship View Post
    I'd be somewhere between moderately surprised and absolutely shocked (depending on how I'm feeling about the current competence of the Knicks front office) if there's not more moves coming before the deadline for NY. That said, even if they do clear out some cap/roster room with the veteran guards (lots of rumblings about Alec Burks, for instance, who is great in a smaller role and not great in a featured one, as seen very clearly of late), Cam is the exact kind of player that Thibs HATES to play. Thibs wants guys who are going to be where they need to be, who aren't going to make stupid mistakes or take big gambles, and who won't break scheme unless they're specifically allowed to do so. That is decidedly not who Reddish is.

    He'll happily sacrifice minutes for young guys with upside in order to play more limited vets who will do what they are supposed to. Nobody can deny that it works generally: Thibs will grind out wins with weird, mismatched lineups that nobody else could win with. But for the longterm health of your franchise if you just don't have the top-end talent to win titles?

    Anyway, all this is to say that I would not be shocked if Reddish doesn't see a ton of time even if they DO trade Burks and/or other wing depth, and I definitely foresee him becoming a Knicks blog folk hero because of it (in much the same way that Ben Stiller is tweeting that Thibs should be playing Obi Toppin more now).

    In totally unrelated and not former-Duke-player news (though it is a former ACC guy about whom this board has... mixed feelings, we'll say): thought this was very cool from Joel Embiid. He and Jose Alvarado got into it in the recent 76ers/Pelicans game and picked up double techs. As a gesture of appreciation from one on-court gadfly who makes a gazillion dollars a year to another who only makes half a million, Embiid is paying Alvarado's fine for the tech.
    Thank you for this info. I thought Thibs was that guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    If Tibs hates players like Cam, why did he trade for him? I know the GM makes those decisions, but of course it's in heavy consultation with the coach. Unless it was salary-related which is always possible.

    And if he really doesn't want to play Cam, who's to say the Knicks wouldn't turn around and move him again before the deadline to someone who actually wants him?
    Couldn't agree more. Why bring in a guy you're not going to play. Besides, I think Cam can be a really special player when healthy.

  3. #1103
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    “Arguably” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. If you said “arguably that team’s best *offensive* player,” I could see the argument. Tatum was clearly the better all around player. He wasn’t the defender that he became in the NBA, but we was not the total liability that Luke was.
    Luke Kennard was first-team All-ACC and consensus second-team All-America in 2017. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC and finished a distant second to NC State's Dennis Smith for ACC Freshman of the Year. Tatum did miss some games early due to an injury and even in 2017 everyone recognized that Tatum was the best NBA prospect on the team. But a pretty credible case can be made that Luke Kennard was Duke's best player in 2017.

  4. #1104
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    “Arguably” is doing a lot of work in that sentence. If you said “arguably that team’s best *offensive* player,” I could see the argument. Tatum was clearly the better all around player. He wasn’t the defender that he became in the NBA, but we was not the total liability that Luke was.
    Having nothing to do with the question about Luke and Tatum this little debate got me to wondering... how often is Duke's "best player" up for debate?

    2022 - Though we have all marveled at Wendell Moore's improvement this season, I think there is little question that the best player on the team is Paolo Banchero
    2021 - Matthew Hurt, no debate about it
    2020 - I suppose you could debate Vernon Carey versus Tre Jones, but I don't think it was all that close. Tre was the best player on that team.
    2019 - Zion... nuf said.
    2018 - Bagley... nuf said.
    2017 - As noted earlier, there is a real debate between Luke Kennard and Jayson Tatum here.
    2016 - Despite Brandon Ingram having a wonderful season, little question the answer here is Grayson Allen.
    2015 - Jahlil Okafor, right? Is someone making an argument for Tyus or Justise?
    2014 - Jabari Parker, no real other contender.
    2013 - Mason Plumlee, but I will concede that one could argue for Seth Curry.
    2012 - I guess it is Austin Rivers, but I suspect one could have made an argument for Seth or Mason.
    2011 - If he had not gotten hurt, it would probably be Kyrie, but fairly clear Nolan Smith was top dog on this team.
    2010 - Singler... no Scheyer... no Smith... and what about Zoubek late in the year?!?!

    So, in the past 12 years, it feels to me like Duke has only had about 2-4 years where there wasn't a clear top dog (2017, 2010, and maybe 2020 and 2013).

    No big conclusion here... just something I was wondering about.
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Luke Kennard was first-team All-ACC and consensus second-team All-America in 2017. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC and finished a distant second to NC State's Dennis Smith for ACC Freshman of the Year. Tatum did miss some games early due to an injury and even in 2017 everyone recognized that Tatum was the best NBA prospect on the team. But a pretty credible case can be made that Luke Kennard was Duke's best player in 2017.
    Award teams love offense and downgrade freshmen. Luke had a real star turn that year, but the defense what horrendous.
       

  6. #1106
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Having nothing to do with the question about Luke and Tatum this little debate got me to wondering... how often is Duke's "best player" up for debate?

    2022 - Though we have all marveled at Wendell Moore's improvement this season, I think there is little question that the best player on the team is Paolo Banchero
    2021 - Matthew Hurt, no debate about it
    2020 - I suppose you could debate Vernon Carey versus Tre Jones, but I don't think it was all that close. Tre was the best player on that team.
    2019 - Zion... nuf said.
    2018 - Bagley... nuf said.
    2017 - As noted earlier, there is a real debate between Luke Kennard and Jayson Tatum here.
    2016 - Despite Brandon Ingram having a wonderful season, little question the answer here is Grayson Allen.
    2015 - Jahlil Okafor, right? Is someone making an argument for Tyus or Justise?
    2014 - Jabari Parker, no real other contender.
    2013 - Mason Plumlee, but I will concede that one could argue for Seth Curry.
    2012 - I guess it is Austin Rivers, but I suspect one could have made an argument for Seth or Mason.
    2011 - If he had not gotten hurt, it would probably be Kyrie, but fairly clear Nolan Smith was top dog on this team.
    2010 - Singler... no Scheyer... no Smith... and what about Zoubek late in the year?!?!

    So, in the past 12 years, it feels to me like Duke has only had about 2-4 years where there wasn't a clear top dog (2017, 2010, and maybe 2020 and 2013).

    No big conclusion here... just something I was wondering about.
    Scheyer in 2010, Rivers in 2012 and Plumlee in 2013 are no-brainers for me. Kennard in 2017. Carey and Jones is a lot closer in 2020. Duke decided to push Jones for ACCPOY and not nominate Carey because they thought they would split the vote. The writers named Carey USBWA district POY over Jones and Carey got more traction in the All-America voting.

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Having nothing to do with the question about Luke and Tatum this little debate got me to wondering... how often is Duke's "best player" up for debate?

    2022 - Though we have all marveled at Wendell Moore's improvement this season, I think there is little question that the best player on the team is Paolo Banchero
    2021 - Matthew Hurt, no debate about it
    2020 - I suppose you could debate Vernon Carey versus Tre Jones, but I don't think it was all that close. Tre was the best player on that team.
    2019 - Zion... nuf said.
    2018 - Bagley... nuf said.
    2017 - As noted earlier, there is a real debate between Luke Kennard and Jayson Tatum here.
    2016 - Despite Brandon Ingram having a wonderful season, little question the answer here is Grayson Allen.
    2015 - Jahlil Okafor, right? Is someone making an argument for Tyus or Justise?
    2014 - Jabari Parker, no real other contender.
    2013 - Mason Plumlee, but I will concede that one could argue for Seth Curry.
    2012 - I guess it is Austin Rivers, but I suspect one could have made an argument for Seth or Mason.
    2011 - If he had not gotten hurt, it would probably be Kyrie, but fairly clear Nolan Smith was top dog on this team.
    2010 - Singler... no Scheyer... no Smith... and what about Zoubek late in the year?!?!

    So, in the past 12 years, it feels to me like Duke has only had about 2-4 years where there wasn't a clear top dog (2017, 2010, and maybe 2020 and 2013).

    No big conclusion here... just something I was wondering about.
    In 2015 people were arguing that Duke played better without Okafor. The argument was a bit overblown, but did have an element of truth. Keying off my point about two-way players, yes, I would say Tyus was the best player on that team.
       

  8. #1108
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    In 2015 people were arguing that Duke played better without Okafor. The argument was a bit overblown, but did have an element of truth. Keying off my point about two-way players, yes, I would say Tyus was the best player on that team.
    Look, everyone is entitled to their individual opinion, but I suspect there is a lot of "how did they do in the NBA? Wow, look at how the game has changed" impacting your statement.

    Tyus was 3rd team All-ACC and did not sniff any national All-American teams. Big Jah was ACC POY and a consensus first team All-American. Perhaps you saw things at the time that the vast, vast, vast majority of college hoops observers did not, but there really was no debate about Duke's best player in 2015.
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  9. #1109
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Look, everyone is entitled to their individual opinion, but I suspect there is a lot of "how did they do in the NBA? Wow, look at how the game has changed" impacting your statement.

    Tyus was 3rd team All-ACC and did not sniff any national All-American teams. Big Jah was ACC POY and a consensus first team All-American. Perhaps you saw things at the time that the vast, vast, vast majority of college hoops observers did not, but there really was no debate about Duke's best player in 2015.
    NBA play is not affecting my opinion, but as you say we each have our own opinions. And “best player” is silly anyway. What matters is how a team comes together and 2015 certainly came together in a way that 2017 did not. Perhaps that is because of the familiarity of the 2015 players with each other and every player’s acceptance of their roles, including Big Jah as the unquestioned “best player” on the team. My point is that, in actuality, Tyus was better than Jah on that team at that time.

    But to your point: Tyus deferred to Jah when the media spotlight was on.

    I do not recall either Tatum or Kennard ceded any spotlight, so I agree that 2017 was unusual.

    One thing I think we can agree on, Cook said it best after a big win when Tyus was being interviewed on TV: those two made up the best backcourt that year.
    Carolina delenda est

  10. #1110
    Give me Tyus over Jah on that 2015 team. Maybe it’s because Tyus hit so many big shots at the end of games. I wish I could go back and ask 2015 me.
       

  11. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Give me Tyus over Jah on that 2015 team. Maybe it’s because Tyus hit so many big shots at the end of games. I wish I could go back and ask 2015 me.
    I should have added: 2015 Final Four MOP, Tyus Jones.
       

  12. #1112
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    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Give me Tyus over Jah on that 2015 team. Maybe it’s because Tyus hit so many big shots at the end of games. I wish I could go back and ask 2015 me.
    I probably vote Jah overall, but could make a case for Winslow. Duke’s season really turned around once Winslow recovered from his mid season rib injury and a lot of the late season offense was run through him (until Tyus took over in the FF).
       

  13. #1113
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Award teams love offense and downgrade freshmen. Luke had a real star turn that year, but the defense what horrendous.
    I think "horrendous" is a big overstatement.

  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think "horrendous" is a big overstatement.
    Probably fair. I suspect I have pegged Luke as the stand-in for my frustration over the years when the team can score with the best of them but is vulnerable on the other end. I will retroactively improve my regard for his ability to defend adequately.
    Carolina delenda est

  15. #1115
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Is this seriously being argued? Jah had a few down games in the tournament, but over the course of the whole season he was very consistent, and consistently overwhelming. Teams just could not handle him at the offensive end at all. The advanced stats back up the eye test, as well as the media's opinion that Jah wasn't just the best player on Duke's team, but (along with Kaminsky) the best player in the country. Tyus was great, in particular in the tournament, but also in many games during the regular season, but he also struggled for significant stretches. Believe me I'd take Tyus Jones as my college point guard all day and all night long and I loved that kid running our team, but for that year, the best and most impactful player on the team was Okafor.

  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Is this seriously being argued? Jah had a few down games in the tournament, but over the course of the whole season he was very consistent, and consistently overwhelming. Teams just could not handle him at the offensive end at all. The advanced stats back up the eye test, as well as the media's opinion that Jah wasn't just the best player on Duke's team, but (along with Kaminsky) the best player in the country. Tyus was great, in particular in the tournament, but also in many games during the regular season, but he also struggled for significant stretches. Believe me I'd take Tyus Jones as my college point guard all day and all night long and I loved that kid running our team, but for that year, the best and most impactful player on the team was Okafor.
    Where are you looking for advanced stats?
    Carolina delenda est

  17. #1117
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    Feb 2010
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    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Luke Kennard was first-team All-ACC and consensus second-team All-America in 2017. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC and finished a distant second to NC State's Dennis Smith for ACC Freshman of the Year. Tatum did miss some games early due to an injury and even in 2017 everyone recognized that Tatum was the best NBA prospect on the team. But a pretty credible case can be made that Luke Kennard was Duke's best player in 2017.
    Luke should have been named ACC player of the year in 2017.

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think "horrendous" is a big overstatement.
    I completely agree with you. Though Luke was clearly not a great defender at Duke, I saw him get many clever steals, deflect a considerable number of passes, block some shots, many times force his opponent into a difficult shot that they ended up missing, etc.

    Additionally, Luke carried a huge offensive responsibility and thus had to focus on that. Had he been going all-out on defense on every play his offense would have suffered greatly.
       

  19. #1119
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Belhaven, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Having nothing to do with the question about Luke and Tatum this little debate got me to wondering... how often is Duke's "best player" up for debate?

    2022 - Though we have all marveled at Wendell Moore's improvement this season, I think there is little question that the best player on the team is Paolo Banchero
    2021 - Matthew Hurt, no debate about it
    2020 - I suppose you could debate Vernon Carey versus Tre Jones, but I don't think it was all that close. Tre was the best player on that team.
    2019 - Zion... nuf said.
    2018 - Bagley... nuf said.
    2017 - As noted earlier, there is a real debate between Luke Kennard and Jayson Tatum here.
    2016 - Despite Brandon Ingram having a wonderful season, little question the answer here is Grayson Allen.
    2015 - Jahlil Okafor, right? Is someone making an argument for Tyus or Justise?
    2014 - Jabari Parker, no real other contender.
    2013 - Mason Plumlee, but I will concede that one could argue for Seth Curry.
    2012 - I guess it is Austin Rivers, but I suspect one could have made an argument for Seth or Mason.
    2011 - If he had not gotten hurt, it would probably be Kyrie, but fairly clear Nolan Smith was top dog on this team.
    2010 - Singler... no Scheyer... no Smith... and what about Zoubek late in the year?!?!

    So, in the past 12 years, it feels to me like Duke has only had about 2-4 years where there wasn't a clear top dog (2017, 2010, and maybe 2020 and 2013).

    No big conclusion here... just something I was wondering about.
    The only one I'd argue is 2015. Justise was the best player late in the season in my opinion.
       

  20. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I completely agree with you. Though Luke was clearly not a great defender at Duke, I saw him get many clever steals, deflect a considerable number of passes, block some shots, many times force his opponent into a difficult shot that they ended up missing, etc.

    Additionally, Luke carried a huge offensive responsibility and thus had to focus on that. Had he been going all-out on defense on every play his offense would have suffered greatly.
    Note that I was talking about team defense when I said horrendous. An overstatement perhaps but I love it when Duke teams can play devastating defense.
       

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