ACC-B1G-PAC Allliance "Expected Soon"

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This whole (alleged) effort by the ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 feels like a "re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic" effort to me-- it's not going to matter. NIL is an ill wind sweeping through the old legacy forests of college sports-- and it is going clear out a lot of dead wood--these conferences would appear to be among the detritus.

Yeah. Or, ya know, maybe it isn't?

Kids are getting money, the NCAA is increasing in irrelevance. Things are overdue for a change. Everything will be okay.

[Dedgummit]

Hey, what do you have against Clemson?

They're the N.C. State of South Carolina. Except they're good at football.

So, I guess that's it.


Note: I'm an NC native who currently lives about half an hour from Clemson. They're super annoying until I mention basketball.

Farm school that sold its soul (long ago) for football; NC State isn't really focused on anything (sports wise). I remember how downcast the Clemson folk were, for about ~25 years, after Florida State joined the league-- because they weren't even close to being the best any more, at the ONLY thing they care about down there-- they were used to being the biggest fish in a pretty small pond-- and then FSU came in, and gave them regular yearly beatings, and they didn't know WHAT to do with themselves-- which didn't really change till about 6-7 years ago-- when Dabo managed to catch up to Jimbo (after BobbyBo got old)-- now the BoBos are reversed in the pecking order, and everybody in orange is in fine fettle again. Clemson is NOT really interested in academic integrity-- they wanna win football games.

[camion]

Farm school that sold its soul (long ago) for football; NC State isn't really focused on anything (sports wise). I remember how downcast the Clemson folk were, for about ~25 years, after Florida State joined the league-- because they weren't even close to being the best any more, at the ONLY thing they care about down there-- they were used to being the biggest fish in a pretty small pond-- and then FSU came in, and gave them regular yearly beatings, and they didn't know WHAT to do with themselves-- which didn't really change till about 6-7 years ago-- when Dabo managed to catch up to Jimbo (after BobbyBo got old)-- now the BoBos are reversed in the pecking order, and everybody in orange is in fine fettle again. Clemson is NOT really interested in academic integrity-- they wanna win football games.

So, I was right.

And was it a policy decision by N.C. State or was it just they didn't do it very well?

[Dedgummit]

Yeah. Or, ya know, maybe it isn't?

Kids are getting money, the NCAA is increasing in irrelevance. Things are overdue for a change. Everything will be okay.

You might be right. I doubt it.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You might be right. I doubt it.

You have made that quite clear.

[75Crazie]

Clemson is NOT really interested in academic integrity-- they wanna win football games.

How does that differentiate them from possibly 90% of the other schools in the power conferences?

[Dedgummit]

How does that differentiate them from possibly 90% of the other schools in the power conferences?

They are willing to forego other possible uses of their school's financial resources to pay their football coach more money than 99.5% of "the other schools in the power conferences" (it's really become an arms race between Dabo and Saban, with Jimbo hoping to keep up)-- that differentiates them.

Clemson has made itself abundantly clear on what the school (and its alums) value--they put their money where their mouth (and football team) is. Meanwhile, their school's endowment is barely worth mentioning. Clemson is near the bottom of "the other schools in the power conferences" (along with most of the SEC schools-- those not named Vanderbilt or not bequested an oil inheritance by the Texas State Railroad Commission) in endowment funding (which is typically used to fund various academic programs and facilities). Schools like Delaware, and Northeastern, and Loma Linda, and UC-Irvine have much bigger endowments than Clemson-- because Clemson doesn't concern itself with kind of thing.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

They are willing to forego other possible uses of their school's financial resources to pay their football coach more money than 99.5% of "the other schools in the power conferences" (it's really become an arms race between Dabo and Saban, with Jimbo hoping to keep up)-- that differentiates them.

Clemson has made itself abundantly clear on what the school (and its alums) value--they put their money where their mouth (and football team) is. Meanwhile, their school's endowment is barely worth mentioning. Clemson is near the bottom of "the other schools in the power conferences" (along with most of the SEC schools-- those not named Vanderbilt or not bequested an oil inheritance by the Texas State Railroad Commission) in endowment funding (which is typically used to fund various academic programs and facilities). Schools like Delaware, and Northeastern, and Loma Linda, and UC-Irvine have much bigger endowments than Clemson-- because Clemson doesn't concern itself with kind of thing.

I lost track of this thread a while ago. Dedgummit seems to be trying to set a new land-speed record for "most words posted by a new DBR member in their first month." Might want to slow down a bit there...

I have absolutely no loyalty to Clemson. A good friend's dad is a successful businessman who is an alum and is very involved in IPTAY, and a former colleague is a senior administrator there. I went to a very diverse but very competitive northeastern public high school almost 30 years ago and back then, the occasional student who would consider Clemson was not a good student - it was someone who was looking for a change of scenery, sports and a good time.

Anecdotally I have several friends and colleagues with college-aged kids. Clemson has really moved up. It is far from rivaling the Dukes of the world, but it is drawing much better students. I know several fairly strong students from the northeast who would not have considered Clemson in the past but applied and seriously considered it. The son of a colleague who lives in the southeast is starting at Clemson now and turned down some good schools to go there - unclear if he was given scholarships but my colleague likely was not forcing his child to make a decision based on finances. Several of the SEC schools have also been moving up and drawing more competitive students nationally.

So yes, Clemson and similar schools are investing a fortune in sports. But they are also leveraging this to improve their academics.

[Dedgummit]

I lost track of this thread a while ago. Dedgummit seems to be trying to set a new land-speed record for "most words posted by a new DBR member in their first month." Might want to slow down a bit there...

I have absolutely no loyalty to Clemson. A good friend's dad is a successful businessman who is an alum and is very involved in IPTAY, and a former colleague is a senior administrator there. I went to a very diverse but very competitive northeastern public high school almost 30 years ago and back then, the occasional student who would consider Clemson was not a good student - it was someone who was looking for a change of scenery, sports and a good time.

Anecdotally I have several friends and colleagues with college-aged kids. Clemson has really moved up. It is far from rivaling the Dukes of the world, but it is drawing much better students. I know several fairly strong students from the northeast who would not have considered Clemson in the past but applied and seriously considered it. The son of a colleague who lives in the southeast is starting at Clemson now and turned down some good schools to go there - unclear if he was given scholarships but my colleague likely was not forcing his child to make a decision based on finances. Several of the SEC schools have also been moving up and drawing more competitive students nationally.

So yes, Clemson and similar schools are investing a fortune in sports. But they are also leveraging this to improve their academics.

Clemson and South Carolina and Alabama have made it a practice (in recent years) to offer very large scholarships (things like free tuition) to out-of-state good students who will attend there-- these tend to be "Yankees" with decent academic records, who, for example, like the idea of attending Clemson tuition-free, rather than Ohio State for $12,000/year. There's nothing wrong with that-- it's a step in the right direction for Clemson, et al. It is bringing these schools some better students than they otherwise would tend to matriculate. But these students still tend to be the exceptions, not the rule, at those schools. There is still a huge gulf between the academic reputation, faculty prestige, research budget size, research grants earned, quality and selectivity of graduate (and undergraduate) degree programs, endowment size, and overall focus on (and financial investment in) the academic side of the school at universities like Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio State, Cal-Berkeley, UCLA, Washington, etc., versus what you will find at Clemson, South Carolina, Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi, Mississippi State, etc. (I've purposely left out private colleges from this list.)

New "land-speed record", eh? I will endeavor to "slow down a bit there". 25 years of reading DBR posts should have warned me.

[Dedgummit]

So, I was right.

And was it a policy decision by N.C. State or was it just they didn't do it very well?

I don't really know for sure-- I'd say probably a combination of both. There was a time when NC State was probably focused on basketball, above all else-- but (much like Clemson fans' disorientation during their ~25 years in the wilderness, following Florida State's entry into the ACC), years (which mounted into decades) of NC State taking beat downs from first UNC, and then Duke too, made it hard for the PackBackers who longed for the glory days of Everett Case (or even the lesser lights of Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano) to really get much buy-in or momentum behind pushing basketball priorities and success to the exclusion/detriment of other sports (or academics) at NC State. And then, I would say that NC State's athletic director selections have not been stellar--and certainly not single-mindedly focused on success in any one sport-- so trying to build a powerhouse program in one sport there never really seemed to be "in the cards".

Oh-- and NC State has ALWAYS had some academic programs (e.g.- architecture, engineering) that were reasonably prestigious nationally-- something that Clemson has never had.

[PackMan97]

So, I was right.

And was it a policy decision by N.C. State or was it just they didn't do it very well?

We excel at getting screwed by the NCAA.

[PackMan97]

I don't really know for sure-- I'd say probably a combination of both. There was a time when NC State was probably focused on basketball, above all else-- but (much like Clemson fans' disorientation during their ~25 years in the wilderness, following Florida State's entry into the ACC), years (which mounted into decades) of NC State taking beat downs from first UNC, and then Duke too, made it hard for the PackBackers who longed for the glory days of Everett Case (or even the lesser lights of Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano) to really get much buy-in or momentum behind pushing basketball priorities and success to the exclusion/detriment of other sports (or academics) at NC State. And then, I would say that NC State's athletic director selections have not been stellar--and certainly not single-mindedly focused on success in any one sport-- so trying to build a powerhouse there never really seemed to be "in the cards".

Oh-- and NC State has ALWAYS had some academic programs (e.g.- architecture, engineering) that were reasonably prestigious nationally-- something that Clemson has never had.

Vet school and Textiles are among the best in the world.

Our Agricultural and life sciences are very strong as well... And even if they aren't renowned academically, they excel in making a difference in our state. Their outreach programs in particular are very well respected.

One thing that his State back is we don't look for acceptance among the ivory towers, but among the people e seek to help.

[Dedgummit]

Vet school and Textiles are among the best in the world.

Our Agricultural and life sciences are very strong as well... And even if they aren't renowned academically, they excel in making a difference in our state. Their outreach programs in particular are very well respected.

One thing that his State back is we don't look for acceptance among the ivory towers, but among the people e seek to help.

Sorry, I knew that I'd overlook a few good ones-- I knew about textiles, but not veterinary. I don't think it's a close call between NC State and Clemson academically.

[jimsumner]

I'm not sure how you're figuring-- the ACC is one of the worst offenders in this area-- having "poached" Florida State, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Louisville-- half the league; and the "academic integrity" of a league featuring Clemson, Miami, Louisville, and North Carolina will always be subject to reproach.

Independent has never recovered from having Florida State poached by the ACC.

[Dedgummit]

Independent has never recovered from having Florida State poached by the ACC.

I believe that FSU was a member of the Metro Conference, up until they left to join the ACC-- the fact that they were an independent in football does not change the fact that the ACC "poached" a Metro Conference member from its participation in all the other sports in which FSU fielded teams.

[roge054]

So what does it seem like this proposed "alliance" will actually provide? What benefits? I saw that scheduling was mentioned, but right now what is stopping any of the schools from scheduling each other even in the absence of some sort of formal "alliance?"

I say the Alliance should have a football championship and let the SEC have theirs. Be the disruptor. Ratings would be interesting.

[jimsumner]

I believe that FSU was a member of the Metro Conference, up until they left to join the ACC-- the fact that they were an independent in football does not change the fact that the ACC "poached" a Metro Conference member from its participation in all the other sports in which FSU fielded teams.

We all know that football drives the car. No one can possibly imagine that the Metro was going to keep FSU in the fold once FSU decided its football goals would be better met in a conference. It was just a matter of which conference FSU would select. Likewise, the Big East football component was on life support when the ACC last expanded. "Poached" does not seem like an accurate word to describe what happened.

As always, YMMV.

As an aside, I agree with much of what you're written on this and other threads. But I think the ACC was put in an eat-or-be-eaten mode a few years back and made the rational choices to avoid being eaten.* Which may not have any relevance in a few years.

*With the exception of bringing in Louisville. There had to have been better options that bringing in Louisville. West Virginia, Cincinnati, UConn, heck Boise State.

[tommy]

I'm not sure how you're figuring-- the ACC is one of the worst offenders in this area-- having "poached" Florida State, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Miami. Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Louisville-- half the league; and the "academic integrity" of a league featuring Clemson, Miami, Louisville, and North Carolina will always be subject to reproach.

Sounds like you may be unaware of the academic quality of the University of Miami. Understandable and a common mistake given that many formed their impressions of the university in the days when the football program was running amok and winning championships. But the school is actually quite good. Last year USNWR had it ranked 49 in the country overall, tied with Lehigh and Northeastern, both of whom also have very good academic reputations.

[sagegrouse]

Oh-- and NC State has ALWAYS had some academic programs (e.g.- architecture, engineering) that were reasonably prestigious nationally-- something that Clemson has never had.

Why this gratuitous bashing of Clemson? It is reasonably selective and improving academically (taking the 50-year view).

[uh_no]

Oh-- and NC State has ALWAYS had some academic programs (e.g.- architecture, engineering) that were reasonably prestigious nationally-- something that Clemson has never had.

uhhh what? Clemson has a very highly regarded computer science program (especially at the graduate level)...and i'm sure several others, but that's the one I'm more intimately familiar with.

Maybe your view was true in the past, but it's not now.