Name, Image, Likeness

[CameronBornAndBred]

Random question: now that players don't lose their eligibility for being paid, could we ever see a scenario where a player comes back after not making it in the NBA? Ie DJ, Duval, etc? Say they want to come back, finish a degree, and make NIL money and give the NBA another run. Clearly there is no precedence for this happening, and likely rules against it, but a random thought for the day.

Well, since once you declare and stay in the draft, you can't come back, at the moment the clock struck for whatever year deadline they had, they were done.

They made the decision, they live with the consequences.

[JasonEvans]

Random question: now that players don't lose their eligibility for being paid, could we ever see a scenario where a player comes back after not making it in the NBA? Ie DJ, Duval, etc? Say they want to come back, finish a degree, and make NIL money and give the NBA another run. Clearly there is no precedence for this happening, and likely rules against it, but a random thought for the day.

There is a NCAA deadline to pull out of the draft. After that deadline you are considered a professional, regardless of how the draft and/or rookie free agency went for you, and are no longer allowed to play college basketball.

I will say that I think that rule is outdated and it would be a good thing if the NCAA removed it. DJ Steward should have had the option to return to school last year, IMO.

[jimsumner]

It might be useful to look at professional baseball. Players can be drafted out of high school. They don't have to declare or anything like that.

If they decide to go to college, they're committed for three years, in most circumstances [we'll save the exceptions for another time].

Again, all college juniors are draft eligible. No one has to declare. But a player has the right to sign with a pro team or come back and they can make that decision after the draft. As you can imagine, this does give top juniors some real leverage. If you elect to come back for your senior year, you can be drafted again and there are indeed some good major league players who were drafted three times.

Now, college coaches don't especially care for this and they also didn't appreciate MLB moving the draft back a few weeks last year, extending the period of roster uncertainty. Building a roster is fraught with difficulty and college coaches can and do woo top prospects for years only to lose them to the MLB draft at the last minute. You have to try and find the sweet spot in which a prep player is good enough to help you win at the collegiate level but not so good they're never setting foot on campus. And most college coaches want their players to go pro after their junior seasons because it helps burnish the brand as a program that can get you drafted after three seasons, which appeals to prep players.

But is is more player-friendly than the NBA, NFL or WNBA drafts.

The comparisons can only go so far. The maturation of the G-League is a step forward, IMO, giving NBA teams a chance to develop their younger players before calling them up to the big time for good. But MLB teams have a huge minor league infrastructure with several levels of minor-league ball and do not expect even the most talented and most experienced college players to go directly from college to the majors without spending some time in the minors. Guys who sign out of high school have an even steeper learning curve.

But, yes, there is a precedent in which a collegian in a U.S. sport can go through the draft, evaluate their options and elect to come back to college.

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if this might be the next NCAA rule to come under significant legal scrutiny. Would be interested in the views of those posters with more knowledge on the subject.

As an aside, MLB is exempt for anti-trust legislation. Have no idea how and if this factors in here.

[Mrduke21]

There is a NCAA deadline to pull out of the draft. After that deadline you are considered a professional, regardless of how the draft and/or rookie free agency went for you, and are no longer allowed to play college basketball.

I will say that I think that rule is outdated and it would be a good thing if the NCAA removed it. DJ Steward should have had the option to return to school last year, IMO.

Thanks! This is no way meant to be argumentative (this board takes things out of context at times), but was this rule (announcing you're a professional) established under the premise of "pay for play professional"?

Under the "new norm" the pay part is irrelevant, so maybe to your point, in a future state it's revisited and a DJ Steward type goes pro a year... Can't cut it... Then comes back with remaining eligibility with the NCAA?

Signed;
Long time reader, short time poster!

[Mrduke21]

Well, since once you declare and stay in the draft, you can't come back, at the moment the clock struck for whatever year deadline they had, they were done.

They made the decision, they live with the consequences.

Under the old rules, when the "clock struck", it was a decision of professional vs amateur. I think or interpret as meaning monetarily bound. Since money doesn't seem to matter anymore, should those rules matter?!?

I always thought of it in the golfing world. Amateurs can play golf and retain status as long as they don't make money... Once they take money, they are a "pro".

I think Enes Kanter at UK got caught up in this loophole and never suited up.

[sagegrouse]

Under the old rules, when the "clock struck", it was a decision of professional vs amateur. I think or interpret as meaning monetarily bound. Since money doesn't seem to matter anymore, should those rules matter?!?

I always thought of it in the golfing world. Amateurs can play golf and retain status as long as they don't make money... Once they take money, they are a "pro".

I think Enes Kanter at UK got caught up in this loophole and never suited up.

In some sports (golf?) there is a return path to becoming an amateur again. The problem with NCAA sports is the limited length of a college sports career -- four eligible years out of five after first becoming college-eligible.

[Kdogg]

There is a NCAA deadline to pull out of the draft. After that deadline you are considered a professional, regardless of how the draft and/or rookie free agency went for you, and are no longer allowed to play college basketball.

I will say that I think that rule is outdated and it would be a good thing if the NCAA removed it. DJ Steward should have had the option to return to school last year, IMO.

There was a brief time this was the case. Coaches hated it because they didn’t know their roster until July. In this brave new world, it might be time to revisit it because now it’s already that way. IIRC it was only for undrafted peoples.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

There was a brief time this was the case. Coaches hated it because they didn’t know their roster until July. In this brave new world, it might be time to revisit it because now it’s already that way. IIRC it was only for undrafted peoples.

I'm trying to play through how this would have worked last year. It is somewhat similar to what we all thought was happening this year with Green and Keels where we thought Green was only coming if Keels was definitely gone, but we knew there was a June 1 deadline on that (and it turned out that we were all misreading the situation since Green is going pro).

In my hypothetical, it takes longer to play out as they have to wait until after the draft (and Duke generally wants its freshmen on campus well before the draft if at all possible). Steward says he is going pro, but that he wants to retain the option to come back to Duke if he isn't drafted. Keels says he is only coming if DJ is definitely gone. K basically has to tell Steward that he will not be welcome back (he could obviously sign Keels and then welcome back Steward, but I'm not sure how that would go over). Or K tells Keels he cannot make that promise and has to hope that Steward decides to come back. Because Keels probably wouldn't wait until July to decide.

[Mrduke21]

I'm trying to play through how this would have worked last year. It is somewhat similar to what we all thought was happening this year with Green and Keels where we thought Green was only coming if Keels was definitely gone, but we knew there was a June 1 deadline on that (and it turned out that we were all misreading the situation since Green is going pro).

In my hypothetical, it takes longer to play out as they have to wait until after the draft (and Duke generally wants its freshmen on campus well before the draft if at all possible). Steward says he is going pro, but that he wants to retain the option to come back to Duke if he isn't drafted. Keels says he is only coming if DJ is definitely gone. K basically has to tell Steward that he will not be welcome back (he could obviously sign Keels and then welcome back Steward, but I'm not sure how that would go over). Or K tells Keels he cannot make that promise and has to hope that Steward decides to come back. Because Keels probably wouldn't wait until July to decide.

Let's fast forward a year or few... Not Wondering "if" they make it or not.

For the sake of my random question... Let's say marques bolden wanted to come back for a year left of eligibility. He is likely better than most college centers, has a year of eligibility left, and could make more in NIL than his last year's G league salary of ($400k)... If Duke needed a center it's likely he's better than a transfer portal rental.

[arnie]

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke-f...card/20322659/

This was under the radar for me. I guess there’s enough for Freshmen b-ball player cards?

[pokeresq]

Not sure if this the most appropriate thread, but thought this breakdown from Field of 68 was informative in regard to 2nd round picks. Obviously Oscar
Bacot are showing that NIL can be better than NBA money.


In the last four NBA Drafts, there have been 100 college basketball players selected in the second round.

57 got at least one year guaranteed salary at the league minimum, which was $925,000 in 2021-22.

38 got at least two years guaranteed (which was $2.4 million minimum salary for 2021 second rounders).

Of the 43 players that did not get guaranteed contracts, 34 got two-way deals (half the league-minimum, $462,500 last season, non-guaranteed).

It’s getting better if you’re in the top half of the second round. In the last two years, 20 of those 32 players got at least two years of guaranteed money. Among the Top 50 picks, nine more players got two-way deals. And only one (Marcus Zegarowski, No. 49 overall to the Nets), inked a G League deal; the rest were European players.

Put another way, if you know you’re going to end up being a Top 50 pick, pencil in a two-way salary, which is equivalent to some of the best NIL deals available.

[johnb]

https://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke-f...card/20322659/

This was under the radar for me. I guess there’s enough for Freshmen b-ball player cards?

Wow, it’s not a straight payment, or a commercial, or a bribe. It’s a deal in which a player profits from his own NIL. I’d forgotten that NIL deals can still involve names, images, and likenesses.

[johnb]

It might be useful to look at professional baseball. Players can be drafted out of high school. They don't have to declare or anything like that.

If they decide to go to college, they're committed for three years, in most circumstances [we'll save the exceptions for another time].

Again, all college juniors are draft eligible. No one has to declare. But a player has the right to sign with a pro team or come back and they can make that decision after the draft. As you can imagine, this does give top juniors some real leverage. If you elect to come back for your senior year, you can be drafted again and there are indeed some good major league players who were drafted three times.

Now, college coaches don't especially care for this and they also didn't appreciate MLB moving the draft back a few weeks last year, extending the period of roster uncertainty. Building a roster is fraught with difficulty and college coaches can and do woo top prospects for years only to lose them to the MLB draft at the last minute. You have to try and find the sweet spot in which a prep player is good enough to help you win at the collegiate level but not so good they're never setting foot on campus. And most college coaches want their players to go pro after their junior seasons because it helps burnish the brand as a program that can get you drafted after three seasons, which appeals to prep players.

But is is more player-friendly than the NBA, NFL or WNBA drafts.

The comparisons can only go so far. The maturation of the G-League is a step forward, IMO, giving NBA teams a chance to develop their younger players before calling them up to the big time for good. But MLB teams have a huge minor league infrastructure with several levels of minor-league ball and do not expect even the most talented and most experienced college players to go directly from college to the majors without spending some time in the minors. Guys who sign out of high school have an even steeper learning curve.

But, yes, there is a precedent in which a collegian in a U.S. sport can go through the draft, evaluate their options and elect to come back to college.

I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if this might be the next NCAA rule to come under significant legal scrutiny. Would be interested in the views of those posters with more knowledge on the subject.

As an aside, MLB is exempt for anti-trust legislation. Have no idea how and if this factors in here.

As you say, baseball has a huge minor league infrastructure in which a very small number of players ever make it to the majors. And minor leaguers make peanuts: the last salary I could find was from 4 years ago, but the average single A player made $6,000. Average triple A guy made $15,000. The salaries have gone up, but it’s still a barely livable wage.

It’s also an antiquated business model that was based on a small town American lifestyle in which most people didn’t go to college and fans would really root for their local farm team. It remains a workable model only because they can find enough 18 year old boys who are willing to risk their futures for a certain kind of dream.

Basketball owners want the current system because a)they need to save themselves from bad decisions by getting to watch players compete for at least a year as an 18 year old and b)they don’t want to waste a draft pick on a kid who has another option; they want to know that their draft pick will be absolutely committed and will have no option aside from moving to Serbia or living in their parents’ basement. And they also don’t want a player to say in advance of the draft, “I will only play for a large market team. If a team like Minnesota drafts me, I’m going back to college.” Or, even worse, not announcing that in advance and pulling a Danny Ferry move (Ferry was the 2nd overall pick but went to Italy for a year rather than play for the Clippers).

[johnb]

As you say, baseball has a huge minor league infrastructure in which a very small number of players ever make it to the majors. And minor leaguers make peanuts: the last salary I could find was from 4 years ago, but the average single A player made $6,000. Average triple A guy made $15,000. The salaries have gone up, but it’s still a barely livable wage.

It’s also an antiquated business model that was based on a small town American lifestyle in which most people didn’t go to college and fans would really root for their local farm team. It remains a workable model only because they can find enough 18 year old boys who are willing to risk their futures for a certain kind of dream.

Basketball owners want the current system because a)they need to save themselves from bad decisions by getting to watch players compete for at least a year as an 18 year old and b)they don’t want to waste a draft pick on a kid who has another option; they want to know that their draft pick will be absolutely committed and will have no option aside from moving to Serbia or living in their parents’ basement. And they also don’t want a player to say in advance of the draft, “I will only play for a large market team. If a team like Minnesota drafts me, I’m going back to college.” Or, even worse, not announcing that in advance and pulling a Danny Ferry move (Ferry was the 2nd overall pick but went to Italy for a year rather than play for the Clippers).

To my mind, I’d say that players should still have to put their names into the draft list. Once they do that, they would be committed to whichever team drafts them (or they could leave the country to play).

If they aren’t drafted, they would be free to return to college. To make it fair to their college teams, deadlines and draft dates might need some reshuffling, and perhaps the college team would be explicitly free to not re-up that player’s scholarship (though few teams have so much talent that they’d cut loose somebody who’s a fringe nba player).

The NBA might not like this because it might reduce their leverage over undrafted players (but that’s a small deal), and the NCAA might like to exert its control over players who have “abandoned” the mother ship, and coaches might not like it because more guys might test the waters, complicating their recruiting and roster building (for most coaches, it would mean that their best player wouldn’t be locked into a return until after the draft, which would be a hassle). But none of these is a particularly big deal (to me).

I don’t know what they’d prefer to do, and maybe some of our guys preferred non-NBA careers to finishing up at Duke or at another school that might be better able to hone their talents, but i know my choice if the decision is between inconveniencing a billionaire NBA owner, complicating the life of a very affluent college coach, annoying the NCAA, or providing more life choices to Marques Bolden, Trevon Duval, Matthew Hurt, DJ Steward, etc.

[hallcity]

The Raleigh N&O has a big article on NIL, particularly in regard to Duke.

The main thing I take away is this quote from former Duke player now agent, Josh Hairston, "Kids are literally choosing their college destinations based off of NIL, If you don’t have an NIL package that seems good enough for kids and their families, then you can’t even have a conversation. No matter what school you are, you could be a power five school or whatever.”

There's no explanation in the article of where the money is coming from that allows Duke's incredible recruiting success. I'm guessing mainly Nike but I don't know if they're the only ones involved. I know that there can't be that much money in trading cards. There has to be a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes.

[Bluedog]

The Raleigh N&O has a big article on NIL, particularly in regard to Duke.

The main thing I take away is this quote from former Duke player now agent, Josh Hairston, "Kids are literally choosing their college destinations based off of NIL, If you don’t have an NIL package that seems good enough for kids and their families, then you can’t even have a conversation. No matter what school you are, you could be a power five school or whatever.”

There's no explanation in the article of where the money is coming from that allows Duke's incredible recruiting success. I'm guessing mainly Nike but I don't know if they're the only ones involved. I know that there can't be that much money in trading cards. There has to be a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes.

The guys sign up with agents who set them up with deals (at Duke at least). Paolo did that with CAA and had high visibility. He got a random assortment of deals, but mostly not public. NBA agents are very happy with this arrangement because they don't have to front the money like they did before and take on that risk (which was happening...) because there are other outside vendors that are willing to pay. I don't think it's as simple as "If you come to Duke, Nike will pay you $50k/year." It's more like "If you come to Duke, we have some of the best connections and visibility in the college basketball world. We will help you navigate it with our immense resources and pull. Similar recruits to you got a free car for a year, endorsement deals from Yahoo Sports, and other packages worth about $X so that's what you might expect. We're constantly innovating and looking to expand the reach, so expect these numbers to potentially even go up further, but there's certainly some variability. We have the relationships in place to optimize your earnings."

So, it might be more ambiguous but with evidence to back up expected earning figures would be my guess rather than a guarantee of a certain amount. But I could be wrong...I think the guarantees of money would be from behind-the-scenes sources/boosters rather than directly from the programs themselves, which I'm sure does happen too like Tshiebwe's promise of the reported $2M for next season (which there is no way to truly validate if that figure is accurate).

[lotusland]

Wow, it’s not a straight payment, or a commercial, or a bribe. It’s a deal in which a player profits from his own NIL. I’d forgotten that NIL deals can still involve names, images, and likenesses.

Sure and he can sell autographed cards to boosters for whatever they are willing to pay for it.

[Kdogg]

Yes it's about Bacot but I found this article enlightening especially this:

Bacot says that some programs offered him a lot more than a scholarship, in violation of NCAA rules.

“You get these huge offers,” Bacot says. “For me, it was more about fit and going to a good school, because I know eventually the money will come. But, yeah, that was a thing. You know, it’s everywhere. You would hear huge numbers, like six-figure numbers from schools.”

Directly from their coaching staff?

“Yeah.”

And they made it clear that you could get six figures?

“One hundred percent.”

Armando Bacot Could Have Entered the NBA Draft. Instead, He’ll Earn a Cool Half Mil at UNC

I thought he would be making more. He seems like a good guy. Wish I didn't have to root against him.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes it's about Bacot but I found this article enlightening especially this:



Armando Bacot Could Have Entered the NBA Draft. Instead, He’ll Earn a Cool Half Mil at UNC

I thought he would be making more. He seems like a good guy. Wish I didn't have to root against him.

I loved the clip I saw on Reddit of K talking to Bacot immediately after the Final Four game. He touched his chest and said how impressive his play was, how he hoped his ankle was okay (he took that nasty fall), and that he wished him luck on Monday.
It was a cell phone video that clearly captured a moment not intended for public consumption, which made it feel incredibly genuine.

[arnie]

Yes it's about Bacot but I found this article enlightening especially this:



Armando Bacot Could Have Entered the NBA Draft. Instead, He’ll Earn a Cool Half Mil at UNC

I thought he would be making more. He seems like a good guy. Wish I didn't have to root against him.

Hadn’t heard about the Coach L shirts. To be expected and will see them in the Triangle I’m sure.