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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by JamminJoe View Post
    Zion is highly efficient and I don’t think he is less efficient in the fourth quarter, but I don’t think he’s developed that higher gear needed for the last 3 minutes of games. He’s not demanding the ball enough at the end, and he’s not being physical enough. He’ll figure it out but expecting young players like Zion and Ingram to carry you into the playoffs is too much for now.
    vs. MSU in Mar 2019 ?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    vs. MSU in Mar 2019 ?
    Yes exactly. I saw a lot of Pelican games this year, and there were many times when I wish Zion was more involved at the end. Thinking it over though, getting to the hole at the end of an NBA game is not an easy thing to do even for a superman like Zion. Inside players usually defer to guards.. Zion probably needs to develop a shot from 10 feet out. Or hope Ingram can be that goto player.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    Is Zion’s first priority in the NBA making big money or winning championships?
    I suspect that once you get into the tens of millions of dollars a year in salary, which is what every top 50 player in the league makes at some point in their career, winning matters a lot more than making a few more bucks. I'm not saying that money does not matter -- especially because many players see it as the way management shows the player that he is respected -- but if you asked Zion and most other young stars if they would rather:

    Make $150 million in their career and lead their team deep in the playoffs most years while winning 2+ rings
    or
    Make $300 million in their career but only sometimes make the playoffs and rarely get out of the first round

    Most players, would tell you they would rather have the titles (and it is worth noting that the titles often come with lucrative endorsement money that makes up for the lesser salary).

    Again, I am not saying players should be asked or expected to take less to help their team win. I'm merely answering the question above... if you asked Zion which was more important to him, making a ton of money or leading his team to playoff success and championships, I doubt he would hesitate a moment before saying the latter.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I suspect that once you get into the tens of millions of dollars a year in salary, which is what every top 50 player in the league makes at some point in their career, winning matters a lot more than making a few more bucks. I'm not saying that money does not matter -- especially because many players see it as the way management shows the player that he is respected -- but if you asked Zion and most other young stars if they would rather:

    Make $150 million in their career and lead their team deep in the playoffs most years while winning 2+ rings
    or
    Make $300 million in their career but only sometimes make the playoffs and rarely get out of the first round

    Most players, would tell you they would rather have the titles (and it is worth noting that the titles often come with lucrative endorsement money that makes up for the lesser salary).

    Again, I am not saying players should be asked or expected to take less to help their team win. I'm merely answering the question above... if you asked Zion which was more important to him, making a ton of money or leading his team to playoff success and championships, I doubt he would hesitate a moment before saying the latter.
    So, here is a great question...

    Who's career would you rather duplicate, Shawn Kemp or Robert Horey?

    Kemp was a 6-time all star and was one of the highest paid players in the league for much of his career. He made almost twice as much money as Horey did. Kemp was earning $12+ million multiple seasons. Horey made $6 million once... most of his career he was making about $4 mil per season. Horey never made an all-star game, not even close. Heck, he was only a starter in about 40% of the games he played. But, Horey won enough rings to fit on both hands (7 total).

    I don't think it is even a mildly close call. Big Shot Bob is a legend!
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I suspect that once you get into the tens of millions of dollars a year in salary, which is what every top 50 player in the league makes at some point in their career, winning matters a lot more than making a few more bucks. I'm not saying that money does not matter -- especially because many players see it as the way management shows the player that he is respected -- but if you asked Zion and most other young stars if they would rather:

    Make $150 million in their career and lead their team deep in the playoffs most years while winning 2+ rings
    or
    Make $300 million in their career but only sometimes make the playoffs and rarely get out of the first round

    Most players, would tell you they would rather have the titles (and it is worth noting that the titles often come with lucrative endorsement money that makes up for the lesser salary).

    Again, I am not saying players should be asked or expected to take less to help their team win. I'm merely answering the question above... if you asked Zion which was more important to him, making a ton of money or leading his team to playoff success and championships, I doubt he would hesitate a moment before saying the latter.
    I agree with you Jason wholeheartedly, but ... $150M is a "ton of money" by any measure anybody could come up with. At some point, there's diminishing returns with making more because they're all making an ungodly amount of money that they could never possibly spend in a lifetime. So, yeah, winning, rings and legacy becomes more important when comparing $150M to $300M.

    The equation might be different if NBA players were compensated like accountants (I recognize basketball players get paid what the market bears and the NBA is a money making machine clearly). Clearly, in 1909 seeing baseball players get bribed was not so far fetched or tennis player match fixing in recent times given those guys get paid peanuts compared to the top American sports leagues. Winning big ends up getting NBA players much much more through better contracts and endorsement deals too, so it's also a positive feedback loop to an extent.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I agree with you Jason wholeheartedly, but ... $150M is a "ton of money" by any measure anybody could come up with. At some point, there's diminishing returns with making more because they're all making an ungodly amount of money that they could never possibly spend in a lifetime. So, yeah, winning, rings and legacy becomes more important when comparing $150M to $300M.
    Yeah, but what is the minimum we can imagine Zion making in his career? I guess if he got injured and never got to play again then he's ONLY gonna make his $30 mil rookie deal (though I am fairly sure there would be a lucrative insurance payout in a case like that). If he is successful but the team is not, Zion is still highly likely to make well over $200 mil in his career. I'm really not even sure what the original questioner was asking the more I think about it. It is not like Zion has some actual choice where he could opt to only earn like $50 mil in total. It just doesn't work that way at all (and the NBA PA would get very angry with any player who intentionally took a dramatically reduced salary to help their team win... it just isn't done).
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Yeah, but what is the minimum we can imagine Zion making in his career? I guess if he got injured and never got to play again then he's ONLY gonna make his $30 mil rookie deal (though I am fairly sure there would be a lucrative insurance payout in a case like that). If he is successful but the team is not, Zion is still highly likely to make well over $200 mil in his career. I'm really not even sure what the original questioner was asking the more I think about it. It is not like Zion has some actual choice where he could opt to only earn like $50 mil in total. It just doesn't work that way at all (and the NBA PA would get very angry with any player who intentionally took a dramatically reduced salary to help their team win... it just isn't done).
    Also, you are not even factoring in endorsement contracts. I'm not sure if the companies have outs but Zion has already made big bucks through endorsements - the Nike deal is estimated at $13 million a year, plus various others.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by JamminJoe View Post
    The Pelicans biggest problems last year were end of game play and defense, weaknesses for both Zion and Ingram.
    Zion was 76th percentile in defensive EPM over the season, which is not just average but actually good. I'll keep repeating this stat as long as people here continue to deride Zion's defense.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    If he concentrates on being the best he can be, legacy takes care of itself. If he concentrates on legacy he might lose out on success and a legacy. The priority has to be being taking care of himself and be good today. Thare may or may not be a tomorrow.
    A thought experiment is what if LeBron had done just that and stayed in Cleveland? Consistently making the finals but never having enough talent around him to actually win any championships? What would have been his legacy today.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    A thought experiment is what if LeBron had done just that and stayed in Cleveland? Consistently making the finals but never having enough talent around him to actually win any championships? What would have been his legacy today.
    Not in the GOAT conversation, that's for sure.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    A thought experiment is what if LeBron had done just that and stayed in Cleveland? Consistently making the finals but never having enough talent around him to actually win any championships? What would have been his legacy today.
    Oscar Robertson was a great NBA player in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. He had some of the greatest individual stats in NBA history. But he’s not included in the discussions of who’s the GOAT, likely because he only won one NBA championship (with Lew Alcindor’s Milwaukee Bucks).

  12. #52

    That's part of it

    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    Oscar Robertson was a great NBA player in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. He had some of the greatest individual stats in NBA history. But he’s not included in the discussions of who’s the GOAT, likely because he only won one NBA championship (with Lew Alcindor’s Milwaukee Bucks).
    Kareem rightly got the credit for the Buck's victory that year, which means that Robertson never led his team to a championship.

    He also started to fade towards the end of his career, so Jerry West (another player with one championship) had a better career overall even though Robertson was the better of the two at the beginning. Robertson was averaging about 30 PPG before he turned 30, but by the time he retired at 35 he was scoring only 12.7. West also retired at 35, but he was still scoring 20.3.

    Robertson and West were teammates on the 1960 Olympic team and started in the NBA in 1960-1961, and both retired at the end of the 1973-1974 season.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    If he concentrates on being the best he can be, legacy takes care of itself. If he concentrates on legacy he might lose out on success and a legacy. The priority has to be being taking care of himself and be good today. Thare may or may not be a tomorrow.
    Of course Zion has to focus on his personal development and performance. But he would be foolish to disregard what is going on in the organization he is employed by.

    Zion doesn’t strike me as foolish.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Of course Zion has to focus on his personal development and performance. But he would be foolish to disregard what is going on in the organization he is employed by.

    Zion doesn’t strike me as foolish.
    No. But he is very, very young.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    No. But he is very, very young.
    Well, that is true. As several attorneys can happily attest to.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by miramar View Post
    Kareem rightly got the credit for the Buck's victory that year, which means that Robertson never led his team to a championship.

    He also started to fade towards the end of his career, so Jerry West (another player with one championship) had a better career overall even though Robertson was the better of the two at the beginning. Robertson was averaging about 30 PPG before he turned 30, but by the time he retired at 35 he was scoring only 12.7. West also retired at 35, but he was still scoring 20.3.

    Robertson and West were teammates on the 1960 Olympic team and started in the NBA in 1960-1961, and both retired at the end of the 1973-1974 season.
    Oscar put on about 40 pounds and, although he cast a larger shadow, it was a shadow of his former self. I was living in LA when Jerry West retired -- some thought too early, as he was still averaging 20 PPG. He told people he didn't want to end up like Oscar.

    Early Oscar, however, was a phenomenal basketball player.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Oscar put on about 40 pounds and, although he cast a larger shadow, it was a shadow of his former self. I was living in LA when Jerry West retired -- some thought too early, as he was still averaging 20 PPG. He told people he didn't want to end up like Oscar.

    Early Oscar, however, was a phenomenal basketball player.
    If you were still living in LA during the Showtime era, you might remember how people started making a big deal about Magic's frequent triple doubles.

    Eventually someone realized that the Big O averaged a triple double one season while scoring 30 a game. But that was before he became the even Bigger O.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Not in the GOAT conversation, that's for sure.
    unfortunately, without another chip, he will occupy less and less of that conversation....


    another chip and it's back to "yeah, but...."


    2 more chips and it's "yes he is, no he's not, yes he is, no he's not"

    3 more chips and it's "the ceiling is the roof"...
    "Either they're going down, or we are! Kirk out!"

  19. #59
    Hope the Pelicans’ hire today works out for Trajan, BI, Zion, and the rest of the team. Seems like a bit of a gamble, but they named former Suns’ assistant coach Willie Green as HC.

    https://www.nba.com/pelicans/news/wi...leans-pelicans

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    I agree with you Jason wholeheartedly, but ... $150M is a "ton of money" by any measure anybody could come up with. At some point, there's diminishing returns with making more because they're all making an ungodly amount of money that they could never possibly spend in a lifetime. So, yeah, winning, rings and legacy becomes more important when comparing $150M to $300M.

    The equation might be different if NBA players were compensated like accountants (I recognize basketball players get paid what the market bears and the NBA is a money making machine clearly). Clearly, in 1909 seeing baseball players get bribed was not so far fetched or tennis player match fixing in recent times given those guys get paid peanuts compared to the top American sports leagues. Winning big ends up getting NBA players much much more through better contracts and endorsement deals too, so it's also a positive feedback loop to an extent.
    I generally agree with the points made here , but one quibble is that there is in fact a ifestyle difference between someone who has made $150m vs $300m in an NBA career (endorsement deals aside). Divide that in half to account for taxes and you’re looking at $75m vs $150m. Now $75m is certainly nothing to sneeze at but then take into account that you need to live off the income from that for many decades (hopefully you live that long) after your NBA career. Maybe you can consistently make 3% income on this per year, or roughly $2m (again, before taxes). And you can eventually start to spend down your savings as you get older, if tou don’t plan to leave it to your kids or charity or whatnot. But there’s a huge lifestyle difference between making $2m per year and making twice that, particularly if you’re looking to live a “celebrity lifestyle” and/or live in an expensive metro area, as many of these guys aspire to. It’s the difference between flying commercial vs in private planes, having a fancy 2nd (or 3rd) home or not, having a personal assistant and similar trappings of wealth or not, etc.

    Of course most people would say any of these outcomes is amazing, and they would be right, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that super-rich people like NBA players would feel there is a pretty significant lifestyle difference between these earnings levels, and certainly they could (and too often have) find a way to spend these amounts in a lifetime!

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