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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    Defensive EPM, you mean the stat that gives Alex Caruso the third best defensive rating in the league?

    Zion was not a terrible defender this past year but who is to say thatís not due to SVGís influence?

    Thereís plenty of game film out there that shows Zion being a bit lost on defense - and thatís ok for a guy who effectively just finished his rookie year. But I wouldnít say Zís rep has been unfairly earned nor that itís SVGís fault.
    Yeah, there's definitely some chicken/egg perspective to be had.

  2. #22
    1. If the Pels wanted to keep their players happy, why did they hire SVG? The guy leads the league in former players who canít stand him.

    2. Just in time for Fatherís Day, I propose the Chris Burgess rule: if you want to be happy and have a successful career, ignore the family. They may have your best interests at heart, but they are clueless.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Sometimes you just have to suck it up and be happy that you're a healthy 20 year old kid making an ungodly sum of money. Continue that mindset for three more years, and he'll be ridiculously rich...

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Sometimes you just have to suck it up and be happy that you're a healthy 20 year old kid making an ungodly sum of money. Continue that mindset for three more years, and he'll be ridiculously rich...
    Yea, you would think so, but I'm not sure that is how some of these young, superstar athletes (and their families and entourage) think.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    Defensive EPM, you mean the stat that gives Alex Caruso the third best defensive rating in the league?
    Are you saying Alex Caruso is not a good defender? Is there something about him that colors your perspective?

    Here's who else is on the top: Rudy Gobert, Thybulle, Claxton, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Ben Simmons, Reed, Jakob Poeltl...Reed doesn't play enough to be a reliable data point, but otherwise seems like a good list.

    If you have a better metric please do share.

    Zion was not a terrible defender this past year but who is to say that’s not due to SVG’s influence?
    SVG continued to berate Zion's defense in public even as Zion posted good defensive EPM.

    Please don't create the strawman that SVG did nothing for Zion's defense. It's the public berating that I find fault with.

    There’s plenty of game film out there that shows Zion being a bit lost on defense - and that’s ok for a guy who effectively just finished his rookie year. But I wouldn’t say Z’s rep has been unfairly earned nor that it’s SVG’s fault.
    There's plenty of game film that shows every player being a bit lost on defense. How you see it depends on your bias. And if you want to go away from bias then look at stats like defensive EPM.
    Last edited by ice-9; 06-18-2021 at 11:49 PM.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by duke79 View Post
    Yea, you would think so, but I'm not sure that is how some of these young, superstar athletes (and their families and entourage) think.
    I come from a country where being able to eat fast food is a luxury, so it's all relative. If you can afford McDonald's, why stress so much about getting more money? We all want more.

    As for Zion, I get it. He had a historic season and look at how many people cared; he was weirdly under the radar this season.

    One aspect is the small media market. The other is that the Pels simply didn't win enough. This may no longer be about getting a big salary, but about creating a legacy that will place Zion among the greats. If the Pels don't win, he won't be there.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    The worst thing Zion could do would be to get into some family induced sulk which affects his play...he needs to stay positive and continue to work on his (formidable) game.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    I come from a country where being able to eat fast food is a luxury, so it's all relative. If you can afford McDonald's, why stress so much about getting more money? We all want more.

    As for Zion, I get it. He had a historic season and look at how many people cared; he was weirdly under the radar this season.

    One aspect is the small media market. The other is that the Pels simply didn't win enough. This may no longer be about getting a big salary, but about creating a legacy that will place Zion among the greats. If the Pels don't win, he won't be there.
    The guy is 20 years old and has played the equivalent of one season. Isn't it a little early to attribute legacy as the basis for his decisions?

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    As for Zion, I get it. He had a historic season and look at how many people cared; he was weirdly under the radar this season.
    Small market or not, he was on ESPN/TNT a significant amount of time. I felt like it was like the ZBA sometimes (as well as the Giannis Basketball Assoc).
    But yes, without winning, there's much less excitement. I'm sure the rest of the league knew how good he was/is, but when there's nothing to look forward to at the end of the season, and all the pundits have to talk about the playoffs, he's going to be "left behind" a bit. Once the playoffs are done, he'll be a significant topic again.

    WRT his legacy, the playoffs are where one cements one's legacy, imho.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Is Zionís first priority in the NBA making big money or winning championships?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    Is Zionís first priority in the NBA making big money or winning championships?
    What conceivable framework would we have for staking our claim on one side or another?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    The guy is 20 years old and has played the equivalent of one season. Isn't it a little early to attribute legacy as the basis for his decisions?
    When is the appropriate time for someone to start planning for their future? Setting goals? Some number of years after their employer (who they had no say in being employed by) has had a chance to set the agenda?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    When is the appropriate time for someone to start planning for their future? Setting goals? Some number of years after their employer (who they had no say in being employed by) has had a chance to set the agenda?
    I think Zion absolutely should already be thinking about his future. Had the status quo remained in New Orleans he could easily have lost the next three or four years with the Pelicans performing as inconsistently as they did this season. I think it was clear SVG was not the answer, so why allow the situation to continue?

    The firing of Van Gundy was likely just the first of several moves to come this off-season. Bledsoe, Adams, and Ball might be next. The contracts of Bledsoe and Adams make moving them difficult, though. Buckle-up Pelicans fans, itís going to be a bumpy ride.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    When is the appropriate time for someone to start planning for their future? Setting goals? Some number of years after their employer (who they had no say in being employed by) has had a chance to set the agenda?
    If he concentrates on being the best he can be, legacy takes care of itself. If he concentrates on legacy he might lose out on success and a legacy. The priority has to be being taking care of himself and be good today. Thare may or may not be a tomorrow.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Thare may or may not be a tomorrow.

    Sounds like you may have inside info! Where might tomorrow go? 😉

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    If he concentrates on being the best he can be, legacy takes care of itself. If he concentrates on legacy he might lose out on success and a legacy. The priority has to be being taking care of himself and be good today. Thare may or may not be a tomorrow.
    Yes, he (or perhaps more accurately, his family and advisors) should recognize that he has very limited control over the moves the front office makes.
    Having said that, I suspect the front office fully understands that if they can't put a better product around Zion, he won't be there for very long...

  17. #37
    The Pelicans biggest problems last year were end of game play and defense, weaknesses for both Zion and Ingram. Losing Holidayís leadership and defense was a big loss. If Zion and Brandon are the goto guys they gotta own up and make that jump like Tatum. Blaming the coach or the secondary players is weak.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by JamminJoe View Post
    If Zion and Brandon are the goto guys they gotta own up and make that jump like Tatum. Blaming the coach or the secondary players is weak.
    I canít really speak to Brandon, but Iím confident that in the last few minutes of games Zion doesnít suddenly forget how to dominate whomever is trying to defend him.

    Are you really saying that Zion has been unjustly making excuses and is somehow exhibiting weakness? Perhaps Iím misinterpreting your point.

  19. #39
    Zion is highly efficient and I donít think he is less efficient in the fourth quarter, but I donít think heís developed that higher gear needed for the last 3 minutes of games. Heís not demanding the ball enough at the end, and heís not being physical enough. Heíll figure it out but expecting young players like Zion and Ingram to carry you into the playoffs is too much for now.

  20. #40
    I havenít heard Zion making any excuses. The story says itís his family who is saying this. I hope he doesnít listen to them. Theyíve put him in bad situations before.

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