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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Remind us, how'd that work out?
    2 Miami Titles?

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    The problem with this is, you can get 38+% shooter specialists for much less than they are paying Graham. They are hoping he's good enough to be their starting PG, which is not going to work out. If they had gotten Terry Rozier instead, then I think it would have been okay. It's still an L, because you're downgrading from Lonzo, who I think is going to be an All-Star at least once in the next 5 years, but at least Rozier is a sniper.

    I think there's more upside to just starting Kira Lewis Jr. and develop him. Or even Nickeil Alexander-Walker. Yesterday was a massive L for the Pels, both the Bulls and the Hornets took advantage of them.
    With Zion getting more time at the point, I thought they were looking for someone who can play off Zion for a good chunk of time and then fill in as point when Zion isnít running it.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Grahamís 3pt percentage is very good. Heís just awful every else on the floor.
    I donít know if this is necessarily true. Graham only takes 3.5 two-point shots per game (and makes 1.3 of them). Thatís a small sample size.

    He shoots 38% from 3-pt range, which is pretty good. He gets 5 assists per game in only 30 mpg, not great, but not bad, particularly because heís the one taking most of the 3-pt shots. He canít get an assist by passing to himself.

    Perhaps we should see what he does for at least one season with New Orleans before pronouncing it a bad move.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    The problem with this is, you can get 38+% shooter specialists for much less than they are paying Graham.
    I might have missed some deals for such players, but I saw Doug McDermott got a 3 year $42 mil deal from the Spurs as a shooting specialist. I'm not sure one could expect to get Graham for much cheaper. TJ McConnell got 4/36 as a definite backup PG (who can't shoot a lick). I agree that Graham as a starter is bad news, but I am not sure one should expect a player who averaged 18 points and 7.5 assists in his second year as a pro with a good 3 point shot to make under $10 mil a year these days.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Adaephon View Post
    I might have missed some deals for such players, but I saw Doug McDermott got a 3 year $42 mil deal from the Spurs as a shooting specialist. I'm not sure one could expect to get Graham for much cheaper. TJ McConnell got 4/36 as a definite backup PG (who can't shoot a lick). I agree that Graham as a starter is bad news, but I am not sure one should expect a player who averaged 18 points and 7.5 assists in his second year as a pro with a good 3 point shot to make under $10 mil a year these days.
    Well, the Lakers just got Malik Monk (40.1% from 3 last year) for the minimum. And I like both of the players you mentioned significantly more than Graham, so paying Graham more than both of them seems pretty bad. If you think Graham can hold up as a starting PG, then it's worth it. But I have no confidence in him and I think it's a bad contract.

    The point isn't "Graham could be good." It's that Graham is WAY worse than Lonzo Ball, who they could have kept. I don't care 1 bit if he's not happy or even if he sits out every game until he gets traded. Satoranksy, Temple and a 2nd rounder is literally garbage. Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Well, the Lakers just got Malik Monk (40.1% from 3 last year) for the minimum. And I like both of the players you mentioned significantly more than Graham, so paying Graham more than both of them seems pretty bad. If you think Graham can hold up as a starting PG, then it's worth it. But I have no confidence in him and I think it's a bad contract.

    The point isn't "Graham could be good." It's that Graham is WAY worse than Lonzo Ball, who they could have kept. I don't care 1 bit if he's not happy or even if he sits out every game until he gets traded. Satoranksy, Temple and a 2nd rounder is literally garbage. Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.
    Lonzo Ball doesnít work with Point Zion (on offense).

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.
    Do you actually want Williamson to stay with New Orleans? If so, why?

    Personally, there are many other teams Iíd rather see him with. I donít feel any particular allegiance to New Orleans, and perhaps he doesnít either.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    The point isn't "Graham could be good." It's that Graham is WAY worse than Lonzo Ball, who they could have kept. I don't care 1 bit if he's not happy or even if he sits out every game until he gets traded. Satoranksy, Temple and a 2nd rounder is literally garbage. Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.
    I don't know much about Graham, but I am persuaded by this argument.

    I follow the Pelicans because I'm local and I like Zion. Historically the Pelicans have made a number of low-cost, low-risk trades and free agency moves that seem kind of smart but kind of safe as well. I was worried they would retain Lonzo Ball or break the bank on the ancient Kyle Lowry, and so I was relieved that neither happened. But this Graham move doesn't make a lot of sense if they wanted to make a really big move -- like trading for Damian Lillard, who is restless in Portland but is also guaranteed more future money than anyone else in the league.

    But I'm not sure the Pelicans ever want to make a really big move. There's a small market mentality here, plus a New Orleans mentality that is uninterested in alpha behavior. People seem happy with what they have. Even Saints fans, who are more passionate than Pelicans fans, have mentally prepared for an inevitable slide back to mediocrity.

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Well, the Lakers just got Malik Monk (40.1% from 3 last year) for the minimum. And I like both of the players you mentioned significantly more than Graham, so paying Graham more than both of them seems pretty bad. If you think Graham can hold up as a starting PG, then it's worth it. But I have no confidence in him and I think it's a bad contract.

    The point isn't "Graham could be good." It's that Graham is WAY worse than Lonzo Ball, who they could have kept. I don't care 1 bit if he's not happy or even if he sits out every game until he gets traded. Satoranksy, Temple and a 2nd rounder is literally garbage. Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.
    FWIW, advanced metrics do not support the statement bolded above. Graham was better this past season in terms of EPM (+2.5/91st percentile vs. +2.1/89th for Lonzo) and win shares per 48 (0.99 vs. 0.89), while Lonzo had a higher PER (15.2 vs. 14.6). Which suggests a wash, if not a slight edge overall to Graham, especially when $$$ are taken into account ($47mm vs. $85mm over 4 years).

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Well, the Lakers just got Malik Monk (40.1% from 3 last year) for the minimum. And I like both of the players you mentioned significantly more than Graham, so paying Graham more than both of them seems pretty bad. If you think Graham can hold up as a starting PG, then it's worth it. But I have no confidence in him and I think it's a bad contract.

    The point isn't "Graham could be good." It's that Graham is WAY worse than Lonzo Ball, who they could have kept. I don't care 1 bit if he's not happy or even if he sits out every game until he gets traded. Satoranksy, Temple and a 2nd rounder is literally garbage. Nothing from that trade is going to help this team keep Zion.
    Monk is a clearly inferior player to Graham. He didn't get close to Graham's minutes when they were teammates. Neither player can really defend, but Graham offers the ability to be a primary ballhandler and contribute in starter-level minutes (5.4/1.8 A/T ratio on his career) and shoots the ball just about as well as Monk on higher degree of difficulty (i.e. he does more than just catch and shoot while Monk does not). McDermott is also getting paid more per year than Graham, so I guess I don't see it as Graham getting paid more even if the total is higher. However, I do like McDermott given his longer track record as a shooter. However, Graham has a lot more upside as a younger player who can do more with the ball than just shoot.

    Looking at some Hornets fan sites, it seems they feel the Pels got a steal paying Graham just under $12 mil per year. In terms of the overall move, I don't love Graham as a starter, but I like the idea of keeping cap flexibility in the absence of a huge move. Signing a mediocre player like Lonzo for nearly twice the money seems like an awful move. Lonzo is worse than Graham in the half court. He's a better defender and is great in transition, but I don't think that is worth an extra $9 mil a year. In addition, let's not forget that the Pelicans offloaded two awful contracts before the draft and got a better fit, offensively at least, at center in Valanciunas. I think they are overall in better position than they were before all these moves, but they definitely have a long way to go.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    If they want a PG who can knock down jumpshots, seems to me the best guys left on the board are Patty Mills and Reggie Jackson. Very different players, but both can put the ball in the hole from distance.
    I would sign George Hill, who is available. He's a 40% 3-point shooter, good defender and veteran presence.

    I would also sign Jeremy Lin for cheap as a backup PG -- he can drive and pass, and he can shoot.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    I would sign George Hill, who is available. He's a 40% 3-point shooter, good defender and veteran presence.

    I would also sign Jeremy Lin for cheap as a backup PG -- he can drive and pass, and he can shoot.
    Looks like Hill is going to Milwaukee. Makes sense. He is getting up there in age and doesn't have a ring yet. Probably not starting caliber anymore at the point, but he is definitely a solid bench player for the reasons you mention. Definitely an upgrade on Jeff Teague for the Bucks from what we saw from Teague in the playoffs.

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Do you actually want Williamson to stay with New Orleans?
    Hell no. They have no idea what they are doing. They are just repeating all the same mistakes they made with Anthony Davis. He should come to Dallas and play with Luka.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Hell no. They have no idea what they are doing. They are just repeating all the same mistakes they made with Anthony Davis. He should come to Dallas and play with Luka.
    I would love to see Zion with Steph Curry or Dame. That outside inside combo would be insane.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    Hell no. They have no idea what they are doing. They are just repeating all the same mistakes they made with Anthony Davis. He should come to Dallas and play with Luka.
    They are way ahead of schedule with Zion. It took what, 7 seasons for AD to move on? With the last 2 seasons of turning Jrue Holiday, Lonzo Ball, and JJ Redick into Devonte Graham, and ...(?) I would very disappointed if Zion didn't ask out within one more season.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by fraggler View Post
    They are way ahead of schedule with Zion. It took what, 7 seasons for AD to move on? With the last 2 seasons of turning Jrue Holiday, Lonzo Ball, and JJ Redick into Devonte Graham, and ...(?) I would very disappointed if Zion didn't ask out within one more season.
    If the Pelicans missed the playoffs again this year, while there is still a play-in game, I think we will see Zion start to exert pressure on the organization to get out of town.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by fraggler View Post
    They are way ahead of schedule with Zion. It took what, 7 seasons for AD to move on? With the last 2 seasons of turning Jrue Holiday, Lonzo Ball, and JJ Redick into Devonte Graham, and ...(?) I would very disappointed if Zion didn't ask out within one more season.
    I agree that trading away Holiday was a gigantic mistake. I donít feel the same about Ball and JJ.

    But yeah, the Holiday move was an epic disaster. It vexes me greatly, at least for Williamsonís sake.

  18. #138
    To add to the personnel problems for the Pels... Jaxson Hayes was arrested last week for resisting arrest while police were responding to a domestic dispute call. Additionally there is an investigation into police use of force against him during the altercation.

    https://www.foxla.com/news/nbas-jaxs...ief-moore-says

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    If the Pelicans missed the playoffs again this year, while there is still a play-in game, I think we will see Zion start to exert pressure on the organization to get out of town.

    There is chatter that Zion could be the first to turn down a max extension, take his qualifying offer, and become a free agent earlier.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mortenj...h=625e8ea5177a

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    There is chatter that Zion could be the first to turn down a max extension, take his qualifying offer, and become a free agent earlier.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mortenj...h=625e8ea5177a
    To be fair, that article was written four months ago. And the Pelicans have only made things worse.

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