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  1. #21
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    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanarkel View Post
    With all due respect, the science of discerning human beings' actions/abilities/motivations/proclivities from their names doesn't exist.
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Lloyd Carr was arguably more successful at Michigan than Bo Schembechler. Which name do you associate with Michigan? I was not making any eugenics statement. Sheesh.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dudog84 View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Lloyd Carr was arguably more successful at Michigan than Bo Schembechler. Which name do you associate with Michigan? I was not making any eugenics statement. Sheesh.
    I am not a U of M trustee or fan but given the facts that the football edifice(offices/museum) is named after Coach Schembechler and there is a statue of Bo, I'm guessing that he is held in somewhat higher regard in Ann Arbor than Coach Carr, who certainly had a fine 13-year career there.

    Could you please clarify your statement that "I guess there is just something about the name Schembechler?" I don't think the current story could be fully reported without the coach's/(adopted) son's names being mentioned, given the nature of the accusations. Thank you!
    "Play and practice like you are trying to make the team." --Coach K

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDT View Post
    Truly it is. Who are we to pass judgment on the invasive rectal proclivities of our forefathers? One man's (and one boy's) guttural shower flesh slappings might just be the applause of a Greek chorus in days of yore. How can we really know if those boys in Mr. Gacy's basement weren't just insufferably rude to that upstanding Jaycee. Judge not, lest you be judged with your finger in the proverbial cookie jar.
    Kind of creepy, dude. I recognize the attempt at satire but, still, pretty creepy.

  4. #24
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    scottdude8 is online now Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Is this statue in jeopardy?

    If that statue isnít down by the start of football season Iím honestly not sure if Iíll be able to stomach supporting the team that gave me some of my earliest childhood memories. Every day that passes makes any ďgrey areaĒ more and more minuscule. If Michigan holds itself to a higher standard than its B1G rivals, which all of us Wolverine fans like to think we do, then itís time to put up or shut up.

    Iím just sick about this.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GDT View Post
    Truly it is. Who are we to pass judgment on the invasive rectal proclivities of our forefathers? One man's (and one boy's) guttural shower flesh slappings might just be the applause of a Greek chorus in days of yore. How can we really know if those boys in Mr. Gacy's basement weren't just insufferably rude to that upstanding Jaycee. Judge not, lest you be judged with your finger in the proverbial cookie jar.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    Kind of creepy, dude. I recognize the attempt at satire but, still, pretty creepy.
    I actually thought it was pretty good satire and made a strong point. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder...A Modest Proposal is certainly "creepy" too.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    If that statue isnít down by the start of football season Iím honestly not sure if Iíll be able to stomach supporting the team that gave me some of my earliest childhood memories. Every day that passes makes any ďgrey areaĒ more and more minuscule. If Michigan holds itself to a higher standard than its B1G rivals, which all of us Wolverine fans like to think we do, then itís time to put up or shut up.

    Iím just sick about this.
    I'm with you. I grew up in Ohio, but my best buddy's Dad was a Michigan grad and huge fan, so I was kinda brought into their orbit. Didn't hurt that UofM was much more respected than tOSU academically, that Bo was at least slightly less of a Neanderthal than Woody Hayes, and that the Wolverine athletic programs generally seemed to hold themselves to higher standards than most.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvdahops View Post
    I'm with you. I grew up in Ohio, but my best buddy's Dad was a Michigan grad and huge fan, so I was kinda brought into their orbit. Didn't hurt that UofM was much more respected than tOSU academically, that Bo was at least slightly less of a Neanderthal than Woody Hayes, and that the Wolverine athletic programs generally seemed to hold themselves to higher standards than most.
    I've mentioned this occasionally on this forum, but I was essentially raised in the Big House. My dad and uncle are both alums and have season tickets, so I've been going to games since I was in diapers, and basically every game each season since I was 7 years old. Ironically, this was the year Michigan went undefeated and won a share of the national title, so I was quite spoiled (as a funny aside, my 7 year old brain took this to mean that Michigan, quite simply, always won... so I was quite confused when we started losing the next season, haha). I was regaled with stories of Bo seemingly from legend, and have heard the "The team, the team, the team" speech more times than I can count.

    And now, I want to bleach my brain. I want to vomit knowing that I venerated a man who could apparently push these atrocities to the side in the name of winning a game. My Ph.D diploma from U of M now feels a bit less meaningful knowing it comes from an institution that, either directly or indirectly, allowed this to happen for so long.

    I've said it before but it bears repeating: Michigan alums (and to some extent fans) really do view themselves as the "Leaders and Best" (which is part of why I think many Duke fans on this board find them, and in turn me when I put that hat on, so irritating, haha). Michigan fans thumb their noses at Ohio State and Michigan State as not just inferior athletic programs (although obviously in the case of Ohio State not any time recently), but inferior schools. Somewhat distastefully, there was a lot of minimally veiled schadenfreude when both schools had their own reckonings with similar skeletons in their respective closets. Now it's time for the administration, and to an extent alums/fans, to put up or shut up. If Michigan truly is "better" than these other B1G rivals the school and athletic program will move clearly and swiftly on this, and the athletic department should look very different come the first football game of the season. If it doesn't, Wolverines will no longer have ANY claim to a moral high ground, and I hope there will be a large portion of the alumni/donor base that revolts.

    Put succinctly again, I'm just sick about all of this, and find myself feeling completely helpless as to where to go from here.
    Scott Rich on the front page

    Trinity BS 2012; University of Michigan PhD 2018
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    I've mentioned this occasionally on this forum, but I was essentially raised in the Big House. My dad and uncle are both alums and have season tickets, so I've been going to games since I was in diapers, and basically every game each season since I was 7 years old. Ironically, this was the year Michigan went undefeated and won a share of the national title, so I was quite spoiled (as a funny aside, my 7 year old brain took this to mean that Michigan, quite simply, always won... so I was quite confused when we started losing the next season, haha). I was regaled with stories of Bo seemingly from legend, and have heard the "The team, the team, the team" speech more times than I can count.

    And now, I want to bleach my brain. I want to vomit knowing that I venerated a man who could apparently push these atrocities to the side in the name of winning a game. My Ph.D diploma from U of M now feels a bit less meaningful knowing it comes from an institution that, either directly or indirectly, allowed this to happen for so long.

    I've said it before but it bears repeating: Michigan alums (and to some extent fans) really do view themselves as the "Leaders and Best" (which is part of why I think many Duke fans on this board find them, and in turn me when I put that hat on, so irritating, haha). Michigan fans thumb their noses at Ohio State and Michigan State as not just inferior athletic programs (although obviously in the case of Ohio State not any time recently), but inferior schools. Somewhat distastefully, there was a lot of minimally veiled schadenfreude when both schools had their own reckonings with similar skeletons in their respective closets. Now it's time for the administration, and to an extent alums/fans, to put up or shut up. If Michigan truly is "better" than these other B1G rivals the school and athletic program will move clearly and swiftly on this, and the athletic department should look very different come the first football game of the season. If it doesn't, Wolverines will no longer have ANY claim to a moral high ground, and I hope there will be a large portion of the alumni/donor base that revolts.

    Put succinctly again, I'm just sick about all of this, and find myself feeling completely helpless as to where to go from here.
    I feel for your situation. There's some sort of general lesson about heroes in this post.

    Public figures are rarely as wonderful as we would like them to be.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I feel for your situation. There's some sort of general lesson about heroes in this post.

    Public figures are rarely as wonderful as we would like them to be.
    Amen, amen, amen. As an adult, I've definitely adopted that lesson regarding heroes you're alluding too. It's funny how our childhood naivete often creates exceptions to things we've learned in adulthood that become grandfathered in. I know personally a lot of those exceptions are sports related for me considering the role they played in my childhood. This is case and point in that regard.

    Hero/celebrity/myth worship is fraught with peril, which this situation is teaching us yet again.

    (P.S. If anyone is into classic sci-fi and this theme, read the Dune series... not just the original, but the entire first trilogy. It's an amazing dissection of mythology and hero worship, of course against a cool sci-fi backdrop.)
    Scott Rich on the front page

    Trinity BS 2012; University of Michigan PhD 2018
    Duke Chronicle, Sports Online Editor: 2010-2012
    K-Ville Blue Tenting 2009-2012

    Unofficial Brian Zoubek Biographer
    If you have questions about Michigan Basketball/Football, I'm your man!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post

    Public figures are rarely as wonderful as we would like them to be.
    In fact, I would suggest that, more often than not, public figures and leaders are more narcissistic (and maybe less honorable) than the average person. There was a study published a while ago (I forget where I read it) that concluded that those in leadership positions who believe they obtained their position because they deserved it tend to feel entitled and that rules don’t apply to them. They are more likely to do unscrupulous things or take advantage of their position for their own gain. Those who believe they may have been a little lucky to get their leadership position are more likely to stick to the rules, avoid possible conflicts of interest and follow their moral compass.

    I guess that (often) the more someone thinks he deserves what he has achieved, the more he thinks that he is too important to worry about society’s rules or whether someone below him is being treated wrongly. He believes he has a more important mission. Sometimes good people become “less good” the longer they are held in high esteem by others.

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