Teslas and other electric vehicles

[sciencegeek]

Are you kidding? Do you have children? Are you sure you chose an accurate user name?

So much more I want to say - I will leave it up to some of my esteemed peers who aren't sitting on a yellow card...

Not kidding, have two kids, I’m a darn good scientist, will keep it civil, because I’m not crazy. California is not ready for that quite yet, they have other issues to deal with and the grid is nowhere near ready for the amount of electricity it would take. I am just saying we are not ready for people to drive home from work and drain the grid between 5-7 when most families are off work and cooking dinner, watching tv and playing with devices. Since people are home, they also want to run AC and heat.

Quotes from Gavin Newsom just a couple months ago “Our energy grid is being pushed to its max. The risk of outages is real. We need everyone to double down to save energy after 4 p.m. today” Pre-cool your home. Run your conditioner earlier”

They have to figure out the energy grid supply. As most know, the federal and local regulations and time it takes to upgrade facilities safely to supply electricity takes time. Think about how long it takes to get a permit for a new house and a new house built. Now think about modernizing and upgrading an electrical grid. I am not saying that eventually this cannot be done, just 2035 seems like a pie in the sky number.

[PackMan97]

Not kidding, have two kids, I’m a darn good scientist, will keep it civil, because I’m not crazy. California is not ready for that quite yet, they have other issues to deal with and the grid is nowhere near ready for the amount of electricity it would take. I am just saying we are not ready for people to drive home from work and drain the grid between 5-7 when most families are off work and cooking dinner, watching tv and playing with devices. Since people are home, they also want to run AC and heat.

Quotes from Gavin Newsom just a couple months ago “Our energy grid is being pushed to its max. The risk of outages is real. We need everyone to double down to save energy after 4 p.m. today” Pre-cool your home. Run your conditioner earlier”

They have to figure out the energy grid supply. As most know, the federal and local regulations and time it takes to upgrade facilities safely to supply electricity takes time. Think about how long it takes to get a permit for a new house and a new house built. Now think about modernizing and upgrading an electrical grid. I am not saying that eventually this cannot be done, just 2035 seems like a pie in the sky number.

I read that one of the biggest problems is the gains in efficiency in lighting appliances, insulation, TVs, etc has allowed power companies to reduce the need for new generating capacity. The amount saved just by LED lights is huge!

The downside is that much of our generating capacity is OLD. The new stuff is almost exclusively renewable subject to weather conditions. There will be a reckoning.

[rsvman]

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South Carolina has been trying to push that for twenty years. They spend money on programs at universities, R&D and infrastructures hoping to be a front runner. Unfortunately, the race never started.

Twenty years is nothing. There was a guy out in Utah where you grew up that was driving a hydrogen-powered vehicle in every parade I ever went to back in the 1970s. This technology has been around for at least 50 years!

Seems to be that lf it were practical, over the course of 50 years somebody would have figured out how to scale it.

[YmoBeThere]

aren't eager to stick their necks out and move to something else.

Wait, so I should have put all my money in crypto?

[sciencegeek]

I read that one of the biggest problems is the gains in efficiency in lighting appliances, insulation, TVs, etc has allowed power companies to reduce the need for new generating capacity. The amount saved just by LED lights is huge!

The downside is that much of our generating capacity is OLD. The new stuff is almost exclusively renewable subject to weather conditions. There will be a reckoning.

Great points on the generating capacity. There are new technologies that will be out in the next 20 to 50 years that could potentially fuel our country quite a bit. nuclear fission is an interesting technology that just recently made headlines.

[dudog84]

How can a "darn good scientist" not know the difference between fission and fusion? 'cause it's a pretty big difference.

[budwom]

Wait, so I should have put all my money in crypto?

No, not at all, just send it to me and I promise to double your money in the next year maybe.

[sciencegeek]

How can a "darn good scientist" not know the difference between fission and fusion? 'cause it's a pretty big difference.

Sorry my bad, fusion, lots of good potential there. Was thinking we underutilize fission and had fission on my mind. Apparently first cup of coffee hasn’t kicked in.

[sciencegeek]

Great points on the generating capacity. There are new technologies that will be out in the next 20 to 50 years that could potentially fuel our country quite a bit. nuclear *fission is an interesting technology that just recently made headlines.

*fusion …. Sorry about that. The webpage on phone won’t let me edit my comment.

[PackMan97]

*fusion …. Sorry about that. The webpage on phone won’t let me edit my comment.

Fusion is definitely one of those things that is a bit like a holy grail.

One thing I've always wondered about, aside from photovoltaic, wind, hydro and gas turbines... power generation is simply producing heat to convert water to steam and using that to do work (mostly spin a turbine to generate power). It doesn't matter if it's the simplest wood powered steam engine, or nuclear fusion. All we are doing is changing the heat source. It's a bit wild when you think about it. In fact, photovoltaic cells are the only method of power generation I can think of that doesn't involved a magnet and a coil of wires.

I feel like to solve our problems we are really going to need something "new". Some fundamental new discovering in producing electricity. IDK...just idle thoughts that by the time fusion becomes practical, our understanding of the physical world will advance beyond needing to produce heat to spin some magnets and wires with a steam turbine.

What that is? I have no idea.

[BigWayne]

Not kidding, have two kids, I’m a darn good scientist, will keep it civil, because I’m not crazy. California is not ready for that quite yet, they have other issues to deal with and the grid is nowhere near ready for the amount of electricity it would take. I am just saying we are not ready for people to drive home from work and drain the grid between 5-7 when most families are off work and cooking dinner, watching tv and playing with devices. Since people are home, they also want to run AC and heat.

Quotes from Gavin Newsom just a couple months ago “Our energy grid is being pushed to its max. The risk of outages is real. We need everyone to double down to save energy after 4 p.m. today” Pre-cool your home. Run your conditioner earlier”

They have to figure out the energy grid supply. As most know, the federal and local regulations and time it takes to upgrade facilities safely to supply electricity takes time. Think about how long it takes to get a permit for a new house and a new house built. Now think about modernizing and upgrading an electrical grid. I am not saying that eventually this cannot be done, just 2035 seems like a pie in the sky number.

Here in CA, they just changed the rules on solar installations to make the power companies happier. This will result in a significant drop off in the number of solar systems being installed.

The main driver for the changes in the rules is that 5-7 peak window. What they are going to end up doing eventually is making the cost of electricity at that time of day prohibitive so people won't plug their cars in until later. The "solution" is that they want residential solar installs to have battery banks to store the solar power during the day and feed it back onto the grid at night. Eventually this might all work, but there are a lot of supply chain, technology, and regulatory roadblocks right now.

I read that one of the biggest problems is the gains in efficiency in lighting appliances, insulation, TVs, etc has allowed power companies to reduce the need for new generating capacity. The amount saved just by LED lights is huge!

The downside is that much of our generating capacity is OLD. The new stuff is almost exclusively renewable subject to weather conditions. There will be a reckoning.

LED lighting is a help, but there are lots of things working against it. The massive increase in technology usage puts more power consuming devices in the average home every year. However, the big drivers are the fanatical desire to stop usage of all fossil fuels at the end user side. Building codes are being written to outlaw the use of natural gas for cooking and heating. Electric vehicles are being mandated as well. The assumption is that you can just convert over to plugging all these devices into the electrical grid. Nevermind that the electrical grid has its limits.

[sciencegeek]

Here in CA, they just changed the rules on solar installations to make the power companies happier. This will result in a significant drop off in the number of solar systems being installed.

The main driver for the changes in the rules is that 5-7 peak window. What they are going to end up doing eventually is making the cost of electricity at that time of day prohibitive so people won't plug their cars in until later. The "solution" is that they want residential solar installs to have battery banks to store the solar power during the day and feed it back onto the grid at night. Eventually this might all work, but there are a lot of supply chain, technology, and regulatory roadblocks right now.


LED lighting is a help, but there are lots of things working against it. The massive increase in technology usage puts more power consuming devices in the average home every year. However, the big drivers are the fanatical desire to stop usage of all fossil fuels at the end user side. Building codes are being written to outlaw the use of natural gas for cooking and heating. Electric vehicles are being mandated as well. The assumption is that you can just convert over to plugging all these devices into the electrical grid. Nevermind that the electrical grid has its limits.

Speaking of solar… Anyone know much about solar panels on the coast, basically on the beach? Have a beach house and I’m thinking of putting panels on the top of the house. Although with hurricanes and salt corrosion usually a problem at the beach, I’m wondering if it’s even feasible. Would be nice to have panels and generate my own electricity at the beach house. The plug in a Tesla.

[budwom]

Speaking of solar… Anyone know much about solar panels on the coast, basically on the beach? Have a beach house and I’m thinking of putting panels on the top of the house. Although with hurricanes and salt corrosion usually a problem at the beach, I’m wondering if it’s even feasible. Would be nice to have panels and generate my own electricity at the beach house. The plug in a Tesla.

Interesting question, let us know what you find out. We rent on the ocean most years, and the never ending salt corrosion would more likely than not be a big consideration...(nor do I recall many rooftop installations)

[BigWayne]

Speaking of solar… Anyone know much about solar panels on the coast, basically on the beach? Have a beach house and I’m thinking of putting panels on the top of the house. Although with hurricanes and salt corrosion usually a problem at the beach, I’m wondering if it’s even feasible. Would be nice to have panels and generate my own electricity at the beach house. The plug in a Tesla.

The marine environment is not ideal, but is not a showstopper.
https://www.hahasmart.com/blog/2665/...od-combination

The mounting issue vs. hurricanes could be a problem, but is not something the manufacturers have ignored.
https://formesolar.com/how-wind-affects-solar-panels/

You need to make sure the roof you are mounting them on is very solid and make sure they get mounted properly.

[PackMan97]

Interesting question, let us know what you find out. We rent on the ocean most years, and the never ending salt corrosion would more likely than not be a big consideration...(nor do I recall many rooftop installations)

As someone who worked at a beach side restaurant in high school, part of my job was to clean the windows. It had to be done daily and even then crud built up on them. I imagine the dash be would happen with the glass on solar panels .

[BigWayne]

Interesting question, let us know what you find out. We rent on the ocean most years, and the never ending salt corrosion would more likely than not be a big consideration...(nor do I recall many rooftop installations)

The other issue with coastal installs is how much sun do you get. If you get a lot of coastal cloud cover, that could make the math not work out. When I get clouds, my solar generation drops way off.

[budwom]

As someone who worked at a beach side restaurant in high school, part of my job was to clean the windows. It had to be done daily and even then crud built up on them. I imagine the dash be would happen with the glass on solar panels .

we've rented the same house over the past 15 years and every year I notice something else corroding or falling apart...it's especially jarring to look at the outside a/c or heat pump units everyone has...I've seen some of those get covered with rust in two years...

Many years ago my wife and I rented a house on the OBs, bedroom was upstairs and fortunately it had a bathroom in the room because when we woke up we found the doorknob mechanism was completely frozen from rust and the door hinges were on the outside, so we had to wait a few hours for the rental agents to wake up and rescue us.

[Phredd3]

Not kidding, have two kids, I’m a darn good scientist, will keep it civil, because I’m not crazy. California is not ready for that quite yet, they have other issues to deal with and the grid is nowhere near ready for the amount of electricity it would take. I am just saying we are not ready for people to drive home from work and drain the grid between 5-7 when most families are off work and cooking dinner, watching tv and playing with devices. Since people are home, they also want to run AC and heat.

I'm confused. Your earlier post was discussing "off peak" charging. There's no way that includes 5-7pm. That's as "peak" as peak gets. "Off-peak" varies place to place depending on your grid mix and local climate, but it is usually either the dead of night (midnight-6am) or it is morning (7am-noon). It's never afternoon and evening, because, as you point out, that's when demand is by far the highest.

Almost all EVs have a way to schedule charging for those truly off-peak hours.

I followed the link to your article, by the way. I'm not impressed. It cites a particular paper, which it claims was published in Nature Energy. When I click the link, however, the link takes me to an Elsevier abstract of an article published in Applied Energy. That study, furthermore, does not say what the article claims it says, and in particular, the passage you quoted (reproduced below) is not an accurate summary of the study.

Leaving your electric car charging overnight to have it ready in the morning seems like a good idea in theory. But in reality, research suggests doing so does more harm in the long run. Stanford scientists say that it’s more costly to charge your electric car at night and it could stress out your local electric grid...

In contrast, here's a portion of the summary from the actual article:

... The scenario with high access to home charging and high use of automated timers in residential charging yielded the highest peak charging demand of 8.725 GW. By comparison, scenarios without timer control and with behavioral changes to better spread charging throughout the day limited peak charging demand to under 4 GW. This illustrates the substantial impact of assumptions about access to charging infrastructure, automated control, and driver behaviors on the final load, highlighting the importance of scenario-based planning.

There are many other scenarios to be run and the set presented here is not comprehensive. It is instead meant to demonstrate how the model can be used to consider different assumptions involved in long-term planning for EVs. ...

Basically the article is saying we can simulate various scenarios, and as a society can plan for certain behavior patterns and stimulate those we want to encourage or discourage. They don't conclude anything like daytime charging "does more harm in the long run". They say everybody setting their timers for nighttime charging to begin at exactly the same time produces a substantial spike in electricity demand. Not exactly an earth-shattering revelation, and more than one solution presents itself pretty readily.

It always pays to check the source.

[Skydog]

I’m told our massively interlocked power grid is very susceptible to being brought down by foul play. Can you imagine the damage an attack on our power grid will do when the vast majority of our vehicles are electric powered? Our interwebs, heat, cooling, refrigeration AND our vehicles inoperable?!?! And this isn’t some offbeat unlikely scenario- unless our grid is toughened up it is more likely to happen than not. Heck last month here in NC someone brought down electric power to 10’s of thousands of people simply by pumping a few bullets into a power station.

[sciencegeek]

I’m told our massively interlocked power grid is very susceptible to being brought down by foul play. Can you imagine the damage an attack on our power grid will do when the vast majority of our vehicles are electric powered? Our interwebs, heat, cooling, refrigeration AND our vehicles inoperable?!?! And this isn’t some offbeat unlikely scenario- unless our grid is toughened up it is more likely to happen than not. Heck last month here in NC someone brought down electric power to 10’s of thousands of people simply by pumping a few bullets into a power station.

Affected residents were invited to a local pharma plant to come take showers. That shutdown was bad.