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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by bullettoothtony View Post
    Agreed.

    Scoring is about a lot more than shooting though. Jordan's combination of athleticism and fundamentals/technique--which innumerable coaches and players have discussed at length--is what made him so unguardable.

    Different skill sets, makes it a bit tougher to evaluate IMO. But I'd still go with Jordan.

    But I love Durant, don't get me wrong. His length and shooting... uber-elite offensive talent.
    Staking out a position where Jordan is viewed as the best ain't a bad take man. Never will be. It is a great hill to die on.

  2. #702
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Currently going between DC and Greensboro, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    MJ is the greatest player ever. This is not up for debate. Simply the best ever. Durant is the best pure offensive player in history though. But the distance between MJ and the 2nd best dude (Lebron, Wilt, Kareem or Russell and take your choice there) is further than the distance between the 2nd best dude and the 10th best dude.
    To add to this a bit, Jordan is the greatest ever because he did many, many parts of the game well. He was an excellent defender and underrated passer, in addition to being a great scorer. Durant is a better shooter and scorer, but he is definitely way behind Jordan when it comes to the other parts of playing basketball. Put another way, I don't think many people would go out of their way to praise Durant's defense or ability to create for others (though he did a good job of it today).

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by bullettoothtony View Post
    Agreed.

    Scoring is about a lot more than shooting though. Jordan's combination of athleticism and fundamentals/technique--which innumerable coaches and players have discussed at length--is what made him so unguardable.

    Different skill sets, makes it a bit tougher to evaluate IMO. But I'd still go with Jordan.

    But I love Durant, don't get me wrong. His length and shooting... uber-elite offensive talent.
    I mean, Jordan was better at getting to the rim. And that's more fun to watch I guess. But I've never seen anyone score in volume like Durant in so many ways. Breakways, spin moves, ten foot, fifteen foot, twenty foot, twenty five foot jumpers.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Heck, now you have appointment television.
    Zion, Brandon, Mason, Jayson, Kyrie and Luke could be a decent international team.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I mean, Jordan was better at getting to the rim. And that's more fun to watch I guess. But I've never seen anyone score in volume like Durant in so many ways. Breakways, spin moves, ten foot, fifteen foot, twenty foot, twenty five foot jumpers.
    Definitely a fair point. I think Durant offensively has more in his bag/repertoire.

    But what Jordan did well... whew, e.g., an otherworldly midrange game.

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    Zion, Brandon, Mason, Jayson, Kyrie and Luke could be a decent international team.
    I think Zion's talents translate more to the international game than the NBA. And his game translates to the NBA.

  7. #707
    I forgot how soft-spoken Tatum is.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Staking out a position where Jordan is viewed as the best ain't a bad take man. Never will be. It is a great hill to die on.

    Lol... agreed!

    Appreciate the perspective gents.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by bullettoothtony View Post
    Definitely a fair point. I think Durant offensively has more in his bag/repertoire.

    But what Jordan did well... whew, e.g., an otherworldly midrange game.
    The argument I have heard for MJ is that in today's game he would have made himself into a 40% 3 point shooter. Because he is the greatest player of all time. I wouldn't doubt him.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I wish actual NBA games happened at this pace. So many fewer pauses in action.
    Unbelievable. 100mins start to finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    USA seems to think they can shoot their way back in when they have to. Interested to see how that works out.
    Agreed, live by the 3…I posted upthread (snipped below), but this team does have a ridiculous amount of excellent 3 point shooters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Win or lose this game, I don't see a medal for this squad.
    The team doesn’t seem to be having as much fun or have that camaraderie we’ve seen in recent teams. A little bit of that is lack of leadership on the team (Durant’s not the guy that leads…Draymond can, but some people think he’s a pain…and Pop…the guys just don’t seem to gravitate to him). They can shoot their way to victory, but there are going to be some tough games in the knockout round where they will need cohesiveness and leadership to come back from a 2nd half hole or something…and I agree, i think they stumble.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    On the topic of “if we win”…last night was the first full game I’ve been able to watch of Team USA. If they win gold it will be because they did get one thing right in roster construction: 3 point shooting. I dont think any Team USA team under K had this many excellent 3 point shooters (the league has really become a 3point league in the last ~10 years). You have (last year’s 3pt %):

    Durant: 45%
    Lavine: 42%
    Middleton: 41%
    Dame: 39%
    Tatum: 39%
    Jrue: 39%

    (Heck even Grant and Booker are ~35% shooters)

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Unbelievable. 100mins start to finish.



    Agreed, live by the 3…I posted upthread (snipped below), but this team does have a ridiculous amount of excellent 3 point shooters.



    The team doesn’t seem to be having as much fun or have that camaraderie we’ve seen in recent teams. A little bit of that is lack of leadership on the team (Durant’s not the guy that leads…Draymond can, but some people think he’s a pain…and Pop…the guys just don’t seem to gravitate to him). They can shoot their way to victory, but there are going to be some tough games in the knockout round where they will need cohesiveness and leadership to come back from a 2nd half hole or something…and I agree, i think they stumble.
    I wrote that at halftime and I'm admittedly impressed with the complete change in the second half. If they can play with that intensity and urgency, they may medal. But they can't mail in a half moving forward like they did today.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Unbelievable. 100mins start to finish.



    Agreed, live by the 3…I posted upthread (snipped below), but this team does have a ridiculous amount of excellent 3 point shooters.



    The team doesn’t seem to be having as much fun or have that camaraderie we’ve seen in recent teams. A little bit of that is lack of leadership on the team (Durant’s not the guy that leads…Draymond can, but some people think he’s a pain…and Pop…the guys just don’t seem to gravitate to him). They can shoot their way to victory, but there are going to be some tough games in the knockout round where they will need cohesiveness and leadership to come back from a 2nd half hole or something…and I agree, i think they stumble.
    Not everyone has that leadership quality. From what I have read- Holliday is that guy but he has had little time on the floor. The team has quiet personalities - Middleton, Booker, Tatum and Durant let their play do the talking. Lebron and MJ are more natural leaders. Perhaps this is why K was valuable- player gravitate to him.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I wrote that at halftime and I'm admittedly impressed with the complete change in the second half. If they can play with that intensity and urgency, they may medal. But they can't mail in a half moving forward like they did today.
    Is it a reasonable assertion that the baseline talent level of other countries has improved over time? There have always been good international teams, but perhaps the average international team is substantially more talented than ever. Since that is the case, everyone can get out to really good starts but they will still struggle to defeat the US because the US can bring in wave after wave of talented players and other countries simply don't have that reserve. So it is still a numbers game for the US. The gulf between our top five guys and their top five guys has seemingly decreased, but the gulf between our next five and their next two is still substantial. If that's true, then all things being equal, all the US has to do is play fast and shoot okay against all but the best international teams. You can't play slow AND shoot poorly and win. But shooting well and playing fast will win 90% of games. Add in good to great D and the percentage of teams you can beat on sheer effort increases, even on a bad shooting night. And if the US shoots well AND plays good defense then pretty much no one will have an answer. That is my take, but your mileage may vary. I have a history degree, not a bachelor's in basketball.

  14. #714
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    The argument I have heard for MJ is that in today's game he would have made himself into a 40% 3 point shooter. Because he is the greatest player of all time. I wouldn't doubt him.
    Didn't work w/ baseball.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    Didn't work w/ baseball.
    Do you mean people aren't looking for a 6-foot 6 Punch and Judy hitter to hit 225?

  16. #716
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    Do you mean people aren't looking for a 6-foot 6 Punch and Judy hitter to hit 225?
    Sporks for you sir or madam.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    Sporks for you sir or madam.
    It was the use of Punch and Judy right?

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    But the distance between MJ and the 2nd best dude (Lebron, Wilt, Kareem or Russell and take your choice there) is further than the distance between the 2nd best dude and the 10th best dude.
    Nah. I am in the camp that thinks Jordan is the best ever, but the gap between him and Lebron is far smaller than the gap between Lebron and Hakeem Olajuwon or whoever.

  19. #719
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
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    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    But the distance between MJ and the 2nd best dude (Lebron, Wilt, Kareem or Russell and take your choice there) is further than the distance between the 2nd best dude and the 10th best dude.
    Oh my! Who let the tarheel on the board?

  20. #720
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    Didn't work w/ baseball.
    To be fair, hitting .200 in AA after having not played a lick of baseball for 13+ years is really impressive. Had he devoted more than just 12 months’ time to it, I suspect Jordan would have gotten pretty darn good at baseball too.

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