Best Duke Athlete?

[tecumseh]

Is this the best athlete Duke has produced recently???
http://www.andrewskurka.com/info/aboutskurka.php

[roywhite]

That's impressive.

Best Duke athlete ever? That could be quite a discussion.

It could end up being decathlete Curtis Beach who just finished his freshman year, unfortunately with some injury problems.

Dick Groat, Dave Sime, Grant Hill, Ace Parker are just a few names that would have to be in the conversation.

[jimsumner]

Dave Sime was a world-record holder in track and field and an Olympic medalist.

He was a baseball All-America.

He played football for Duke.

He was a national-class youth speed skater.

Tough to top that.

[DevilHorns]

Dick Groat.

Two big sports:

Baseball (MLB: 8x allstar, 2x world series champ, NL MVP, batting champ)

Basketball (NCAA hall of fame, NCAA single season scoring record at the time, 1st team all-America, Player of the year (Helms, UPI)).

[tecumseh]

Yeah I don't really think he is the best athlete but for grit and determination and willingness to suffer he might have no recent peer

[4decadedukie]

One more vote for Dick Groat (although Groat my not qualify within tecumseh's request for "recently").

[Jarhead]

One more vote for Dick Groat (although Groat my not qualify within tecumseh's request for "recently").

If "recently" is to be used for a criterion for recognition in sports then we should expel most of the Hall of Fame members in any sport, and void their records. There is no doubt in my mind that Groat was an athlete of the highest order. As a freshman at Duke I was exposed to real basketball for the first time in my life. The center of attention was Dick Groat, as fine a point guard that Duke has ever had. That was 60 years ago.

Here was a young man who arguably invented the jump shot as a means for avoiding charging fouls, who was All American in two sports, baseball and basketball, two years running, who went straight from the Duke campus to the starting shortstop for the Pittsburgh Pirates, and who deserved Baseball Hall of Fame honors as much as his infield partner, Bill Mazeroski, did. Dick was no stranger to batting titles and MVP honors during his baseball career. Who knows what else he could have accomplished had Branch Rickey allowed him to continue playing for the Pistons where he was drafted third in the first round of the NBA draft.

So lets leave "recent" out of the requirements for Greatest Duke Athlete. Let's give them all consideration going all the way back to Billy Werber 80 years ago, Ace Parker, Ernie Jackson, Dave Sime, Grant Hill, Skip Alexander...
My vote? Yeah. It would be Groat.

[Olympic Fan]

Here was a young man who arguably invented the jump shot as a means for avoiding charging fouls, who was All American in two sports, baseball and basketball, two years running, who went straight from the Duke campus to the starting shortstop for the Pittsburgh Pirates, and who deserved Baseball Hall of Fame honors as much as his infield partner, Bill Mazeroski, did. Dick was no stranger to batting titles and MVP honors during his baseball career. Who knows what else he could have accomplished had Branch Rickey allowed him to continue playing for the Pistons where he was drafted third in the first round of the NBA draft.

Jarhead, while I agree with your point that we can't exclude old-time athletes -- and with the point that Groat has to be in the discussion as Duke's greatest athlete -- as a baseball nut, I have to take issue with your point that Groat deserves HOF honors in baseball "as much as his infield partner, Bill Mazeroski did."

Yeah, Groat was no stranger to batting titles and MVP honors -- he won one of each, both in the same year. Actually, his 1960 MVP was one of the great miscarraiges of justice -- teammate Roberto Clemente, who hit "only" .314 (to Groat's .325) was a significantly better player in '60 (he scored more runs, drove in more runs and was a much, MUCH better defensive player). But the voters didn't like Clemente, who was very much a victim of anti-Latin racism, so they gave it to Groat.

I'm not saying Groat was not a fine player. He was an excellent offensive shortstop -- no power and few walks, but he hit a lot of singles and doubles. The problem with projecting him as a Hall of Famer is that he was a terrible defensive shortstop -- he makes Derek Jeter look like Ozzie Smith. He led the league in errors five times and never sniffed a gold glove. And while he was a good offensive player for a SS -- he was not Ernie Banks (or Derek Jeter).

In fact, in a 1958 poll of National League managers, a year after Groat had his first really good season, hitting .315 -- he was voted the seventh best SS in the eight-team league. He was that bad defensively.

That's what seperates him from Mazeroski. In offensive terms, they were very similiar players (Groat had slightly higer averages, Maz had a bit more power). Relative to the positions they played, advantage Groat -- Groat was a better than average offensive SS; Maz was a slightly worse than average offensive 2B

The difference was that while Groat was a terrible defensive SS, Maz was the greatest defensive second-baseman in the history of the game -- and it's not even close. Maz's defensive edge at second is greater than the defensive edge of any player at any other position.

Does that warrent HOF election?

To me, that's a debatable issue. But I can't see where Groat's numbers make him a HOF candidate. Similarity scores suggest that the most similar player to him in baseball history was Gary Templeton -- check his offensive numbers ... very similar to Groat.

Michael Hoban, a PhD, published a monograph in 2008 that delved extensively into Hall of Famer careers -- specifically those who deserved election and those who didn't. He argued that Maz did NOT quite meet the standard for HOF election -- as great as his defensive was, it didn't quite make up for his lackluster offense.

On the other hand, he never mentions Groat -- although he explores 11 SSs that either deserve election (Bill Dahlen, Barry Larkin, Alan Trammell) or don't quite make it (Vern Stephens, Jim Fregosi, Tony Fernandez, Bert Campanaris are close, but just short).

Of course, that's one man's opinion, but Hoban is a respected sabrematrician. What's really significant about his monograph is that Groat doesn't even enter the discission.

And while we're giving opinions, I'd have to vote with Jim Sumner as to Duke's greatest athlete. Dave Sime was the greatest sprinter in the world in the mid-1950s ... only a remarkable string of bad luck (which Jim documented in a story last year) prevented him from winning multiple gold medals in the 1956 and 60 Olympic Games. He was an All-American outfielder at a time when Duke baseball was a powerhouse. And he was a starting wide receiver on the football team. The speedskating success was before he got to Duke, but it indicates what a great athlete he was.

I'd like to suggest a couple of more candidates --

-- Gordon Carver was an all-conference football and basketball star. He led the basketball team to the '44 SC title and to three straight conference title games. He finished his career as the leading scorer in Duke basketball history. In football, he starred on the 1945 Sugar Bowl team and made the game-saving tackle in the win vs. Alabama. He was a second-round NFL draft pick. He lettered in track twice -- he earned nine varsity letters in three sports. Plus, as a senior, he played as a grad student -- he was a first-year at Duke med school.

-- Robert O'Mara -- the starting fullback on Duke's 1938 Rose Bowl team, he was also the starting center for the 1938 Duke basketball team, which won the SC title (the first in school history). In the finals, he outplayed Clemson A-A Banks McFadden (also a two-sport star).

-- Robert Gantt -- the son of one of Duke's first sports heroes (Bob "No Hit" Gantt was a great pitcher in the WWI era, when baseball was the big sport), Gantt was an end on the football team and twice won first-team All-America honors. He started at center for the basketball team -- he was a regular on the 22-2 team in 1942 and the 20-6 team in 1943 (when he was first-team All-SC). He and Carver were pretty much contemporaries (Gantt one year older). They had been teammates (along with Bones McKinny) at Durham High. I would say that Gantt was a better football player; Carver better in basketball. But they were both very good in both. BTW, Gantt also lettered in track.

-- Don Altman quarterbacked Duke to the 1961 Cotton Bowl (Duke's last bowl win) and was the star pitcher in the only Duke baseball team to play in the College World Series.

I could mention a bunch of others. Both Leo Hart and Jim Spanarkel were outstanding baseball pitchers. Remember Ray Farmer going from hitting a game-winning HR to beat Clemson in baseball to the spring football game. Dave Dunaway was a great WR in the 1960s and was a one-man track team. Brad Evans didn't turn out to be the superstar he was supposed to be, but he was a starter in baseball and later a starter at WR in football. Ed Newman was an All-American (and future NFL standout) in football and as a wrestler.

[Jarhead]

Olympic fan, I'll have to agree with those other guys you mention, and with your assessment of Roberto Clemente. My reference to HOF for Groat was in comparison to Mazeroski. I saw several of the games while that infield was there, and I figured that Groat was at least the equal of Mazeroski. My thoughts on Groat's defensive capabilities were that his errors resulted from his getting to balls that others wouldn't even try to field. A lot of them resulted in errors, but they would have been hits otherwise. That's a negative in stats, but he made some darn good plays, too.

[sagegrouse]

Dave Sime was a world-record holder in track and field and an Olympic medalist.

He was a baseball All-America.

He played football for Duke.

He was a national-class youth speed skater.

Tough to top that.

Sime was around when I was a student, although he was already in med school. I remember being really impressed with his "sweats" from the 1960 U.S. Olympic track team.

The old guys around Card Gym back in the day talked a lot about Joel Shankle, an all-around athlete and a mentor for Sime, who won a bronze in the high hurdles at the Melbourne Olympics.

sagegrouse
'Maybe not recent, but is seems like yesterday to me'

[brevity]

By ther way, why is this on the OT board?

Same reason George Steinbrenner (rest in peace) is on the Main Board: mods on vacation.

[phaedrus]

If the Olympic decathlon champion is "World's Greatest Athlete", then Duke's Great Athlete must surely be Tyler Clarke, Duke decathlon record-holder.

[sagegrouse]

An old timer, now in his late 90's, Parker was a five-sport star in HS and played football, basketball, and baseball at Duke. He was a star in the NFL and a member of the pro football HOF, where he is the oldest surviving member. He also played for Connie Mack's Philadelphia A's for two years after Duke.

According to one of his Duke baseball pitchers: On days they weren't pitching, they were allowed to play golf. Parker would occasionally join them on the road and had no problem breaking 75 with any old set of clubs he happened to pick up. Sigh!

sagegrouse
'Now Ace Parker was a long time ago!'

[jimsumner]

"Don Altman quarterbacked Duke to the 1961 Cotton Bowl (Duke's last bowl win) and was the star pitcher in the only Duke baseball team to play in the College World Series."


Not to be picky but Duke also played in the 1952 and 1953 CWS.

Eric Tipton probably deserves a shout-out. Hall of Fame college football back, also played seven seasons of major league baseball.

A word on Gordon Carver. By all accounts he was a great baseball player who switched to track because Wade thought it would better help his football development.

Spanarkel came to Duke in large part because Foster told him he could play baseball.

Sonny Jurgensen was a multi-sport athlete, a catcher/pitcher at Duke (try running on that arm), a great basketball player in h.s. and a youth tennis champion.

One of the unfortunate results of longer seasons and increased specialization is a reduction in multi-sport athletes. A pity.

[Olympic Fan]

"Don Altman quarterbacked Duke to the 1961 Cotton Bowl (Duke's last bowl win) and was the star pitcher in the only Duke baseball team to play in the College World Series."


Not to be picky but Duke also played in the 1952 and 1953 CWS.

Eric Tipton probably deserves a shout-out. Hall of Fame college football back, also played seven seasons of major league baseball.

A word on Gordon Carver. By all accounts he was a great baseball player who switched to track because Wade thought it would better help his football development.

Spanarkel came to Duke in large part because Foster told him he could play baseball.

Sonny Jurgensen was a multi-sport athlete, a catcher/pitcher at Duke (try running on that arm), a great basketball player in h.s. and a youth tennis champion.

One of the unfortunate results of longer seasons and increased specialization is a reduction in multi-sport athletes. A pity.

I should have said that Altman quarterbacked Duke's last bowl win and last CWS appearance.

Jim, you are right that Eric Tipton deserves mention ... and sage, you might have the winner -- Ace Parker was an incedble all-around athlete. I was talking to a Va Tech official back when they came into the league and in 2003, he was still griping about losing Parker to Wade ... he called Parker the greatest athlete to ever come out of Virginia (Take that, Ron Curry!).

I didn't know until I looked it up that he played two games for the Duke basketball team in 1937.

I knew Sonny Jurgeson was a great high school basketball player. Every summer, North Carolina holds high school all-star games in Greensboro. When Sonny came out of Wilmington, he passed up the football all-star game and played in the East-West basketball game.

BTW: Looking up the CWS info, I noticed something interesting -- in both 1953 and 1961, Duke was eliminated in extra innings by Boston College. Quite a coincidence.

[CLT Devil]

Just going to give a shout out to another two-sport star:

Quentin McCracken (sp).

Heck of a Football player and then went on to play MLB Baseball.

Ray Farmer was a great all around athlete as well. I must defer to the posters above me, but I loved these two guys growing up.

[roywhite]

If the Olympic decathlon champion is "World's Greatest Athlete", then Duke's Great Athlete must surely be Tyler Clarke, Duke decathlon record-holder.

Well, I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I mentioned Curtis Beach because he possibly could become a world class decathlete and an Olympic and World Championship competitor in the decathlon. Beach broke long-standing high school records in the decathlon. Similar to a McDonald's All-American or a 5-star football recruit, that can sometimes lead to stardom in college and beyond (or not). An Olympic medal in the decathlon would be very impressive in a discussion of "greatest athlete" in nearly any grouping.

As of today, I would not include Clarke or Beach in a serious discussion of Duke's greatest athlete.

FWIW, I think I would go with either Dave Sime or Dick Groat.

[phaedrus]

Well, I'm not sure I follow your logic.

I mentioned Curtis Beach because he possibly could become a world class decathlete and an Olympic and World Championship competitor in the decathlon. Beach broke long-standing high school records in the decathlon. Similar to a McDonald's All-American or a 5-star football recruit, that can sometimes lead to stardom in college and beyond (or not). An Olympic medal in the decathlon would be very impressive in a discussion of "greatest athlete" in nearly any grouping.

As of today, I would not include Clarke or Beach in a serious discussion of Duke's greatest athlete.

FWIW, I think I would go with either Dave Sime or Dick Groat.

An Olympic decathlete is stacked up next to the best Olympic athletes - swimmers, basketball players, sprinters. They are dubbed World's Best Athlete because their sport demands a versatility of athletic talents that is unmatched by other sports.

Similarly, a Duke decathlete - Beach or Clarke - stacked up to the best Duke athletes, exhibits a range of skills unmatched by other Duke athletes. They have the vertical leap of a Plumlee (or closer than you'd think), the speed of a wide receiver (at least over 100 meters), the strength to put a very respectable shot, and the coordination to do some very technically-demanding events like pole vault, discus, javelin, and hurdles.

Essentially, the idea that the best decathlete is the best athlete is premised on the idea that that sport is the ultimate test of athletic versatility. That premise is as true at the college level as it is at the Olympic level.

Of course, the not insignificant point I've left out is that our best decathletes haven't been the best decathletes in the NCAA, while some of our athletes in other sports have been at the top of their sports. Nonetheless, I think a top-notch decathlete always deserves consideration in this conversation.

[burnspbesq]

Save some room on that list for Becca Ward. Barring injury or burnout, she could win medals at four, or even five, Olympics before she's done.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bumping this thread for better appreciation of Don Altman!