Henry Coleman to Texas A&M

[Native]

The opportunity to be at one of the world’s most beautiful campuses, at one of the most highly respected academic institutions... is simply not that important.

I have to think there’s a connection between notions like these and the rising costs of college in general. Society as a whole is starting to recognize that higher education as an institution is in need of reform, and this realization manifests itself in these sorts of ways.

I think there’s also a lot of this underpinning the Play The Players debate. I wonder whether it used to be that a free ride for a four-year university was compensation enough and that’s changed. A college education might be worth more in dollars and cents than it was twenty or thirty years ago, but is it any more valuable than it was back then? Especially when you have the comparative value of media rights, sponsorships, endorsements, pro contracts, and so forth. (Raising prices without making your product better in an increasingly competitive market is a pretty bad business model.)

To get entirely too abstract, I think there’s a severe decline of trust in institutions across the board in America, and the reaction to this mistrust is to empower individuals instead. YMMV.

[gumbomoop]

AJ will pick up some minutes at the 4. He is 6'7, 220, with a 7'+ wingspan. Trevor will also get minutes at the 3.

Yes, I agree. Lots of flexibility with both Griffin and Moore capable of playing 2 through 4. But my post was specifically in response to your post’s reference to the blue team during practice.

[proelitedota]

Yes, I agree. Lots of flexibility with both Griffin and Moore capable of playing 2 through 4. But my post was specifically in response to your post’s reference to the blue team during practice.

Ah. Yes that makes sense.

It'll be interesting to see which one of Moore, Roach, AJ, Trevor will sit, in the case that all four of them do end up on the roster when the season starts.

[sagegrouse]

It's naive to think that all current fans will just accept that its the current state of things and continue to support the program as they have. The last 72 hours in european soccer demonstrates that even the most die hard of fans have their limits.

WHEN we go back to a sit-out year, the running tide of transfers will subside. Of course, it's not "WHEN," it's "IF."

I sympathize with the poster above who said that the turmoil is very hard on established and older coaches.

[DukeTrinity11]

It's naive to think that all current fans will just accept that its the current state of things and continue to support the program as they have. The last 72 hours in european soccer demonstrates that even the most die hard of fans have their limits.

The sky certainly isn't falling though. Did you only like the player development aspect of Duke basketball?

We've lost 4 transfers. One was Tape. One was Goldwire who is graduating and could have transferred under any set of rules. 2 were freshmen who showed flashes (and only flashes) and probably believe they can have a much bigger role on a slightly smaller stage. We're bringing back 3 starters (Williams, Roach, Moore), a key reserve (Baker), and we've added 4 top 100 recruits (Banchero, Griffin, Keels, and Blakes). And we've added transfer who's a proven starter in the Big East in Theo John.

Baylor just won a title with 3 of its top 4 guys transferring in. Houston made the Final Four behind 6 transfers (4 of whom started). UCLA's best player for the tournament (Juzang) was a transfer. As was Gonzaga's point guard (Nembhard). And those were all under the old transfer rules. Kids are going to look for the best situation for them, whether it is OAD, transferring, staying close to home, going to a power school, etc. It's not the end of the world, or Duke basketball.

[CDu]

Yeah I’m obviously a Duke fan. I think you have read/seen/argued my posts enough in the past to be able to discern that, but maybe I gave you too much credit. Who knows.

My question was who here on the boards (presumably the majority of which are Duke fans - hence the DUKE basketball report message boards) had even heard of Theo John before he committed. The point was that a majority of posters think he would have significantly taken minutes from Henry so much that Henry decided to transfer. Before he committed to Duke, I bet the majority of posters on here hadn’t even heard of him but now they’re describing the minutes he’s gonna play as if he’s in the Shelden Williams or Jah Okafor realm. The guy averaged 8 and 5 for a mediocre Big East team. Sure he’ll play. Sure he could have stolen minutes from Henry but isn’t that what competition is all about? If Henry was good enough to play, he could have. Simple as that. Do I understand his decision? Yes, but I don’t agree with it and many reasons why some folks are describing why he chose to transfer. Duke landed Tapé as a transfer this season and he barely sniffed the floor. Things happen, injuries happen, guys don’t pan out, etc. I’m not ready to throw in the towel and state with ultimate conviction Theo John is a God send and would dominate the minutes that Henry could have gotten. I don’t see Theo John as being in the top 3-4 best or most efficient players on Duke next year. Maybe not top 5.

First, not sure why the snippy tone in your first paragraph. Your previous response was weird since I specifically said Duke fans would know who Coleman was, to which you responded that you lived in Richmond so you know who he was. Seemed an unnecessary point to make as a Duke fan is all.

Second, nobody is saying John is some sort of God that is unbeatable. But he is a more proven, more experienced player than Coleman. I think most everyone expects him to play over Coleman. It appears Coleman felt that way too. I don’t expect John to be among our top 5 most effective/efficient players either. I would guess 7th. I would have guessed Coleman would be 8th or 9th. Unfortunately, being fourth/fifth in the big-man rotation leaves you on the fringe in terms of playing time. Coleman saw this, and decided to go somewhere where he could start (presumably). It doesn’t seem all that weird.

[Chicago 1995]

I don’t get Theo John being the tipping point. John wasn’t Coleman being recruited over.

Griffin and Banchero were. That didn’t happen yesterday. Whatever Henry was going to become, a rim protector who played the 5 on D was not it. Just seems like unrealistic expectations finally hit home or something.

Disappointing as that he seems to be a great kid and the kind of kid we want representing Duke, but if he wanted more PT assured and a different basketball experience, good luck.

[UrinalCake]

I think it remains to be seen whether these mass transfers are a one year anomaly due to COVID causing everyone to be unhappy on top of the free season plus no sit out rule, OR whether this is going to be the norm moving forward. K predicted months ago that this summer would be the “Wild West” so it’s not like he was unprepared.

I’m as bummed as anyone, but on a positive note we still (as of now) have Roach, Moore, Baker and Williams returning which is at least as much retention as we’ve had in any other season in recent memory.

[-jk]

WHEN we go back to a sit-out year, the running tide of transfers will subside. Of course, it's not "WHEN," it's "IF."

I sympathize with the poster above who said that the turmoil is very hard on established and older coaches.

I'm not sure we'll go back to the sit-out year. I think the NCAA wants one free transfer moving forward.

It'll settle down as the covid bump in eligibility works through, though.

-jk

[CameronDuke]

First, not sure why the snippy tone in your first paragraph. Your previous response was weird since I specifically said Duke fans would know who Coleman was, to which you responded that you lived in Richmond so you know who he was. Seemed an unnecessary point to make as a Duke fan is all.

Second, nobody is saying John is some sort of God that is unbeatable. But he is a more proven, more experienced player than Coleman. I think most everyone expects him to play over Coleman. It appears Coleman felt that way too. I don’t expect John to be among our top 5 most effective/efficient players either. I would guess 7th. I would have guessed Coleman would be 8th or 9th. Unfortunately, being fourth/fifth in the big-man rotation leaves you on the fringe in terms of playing time. Coleman saw this, and decided to go somewhere where he could start (presumably). It doesn’t seem all that weird.

If you think that’s snippy you ought to see me when I’ve had a few beers and bourbon

You are a better poster than tone judger, I’ll give you that.

Coleman failed to see the big picture of coming to Duke University and developing. For someone many described as a guy who was the quintessential 4-year recruit who will develop and be a good steward for Duke basketball and the school, it is disappointing he didn’t stay where I can virtually guarantee he would have gotten his shot as a junior and senior.

[SlapTheFloor]

Maybe if the new transfer rule becomes permanent, he can come back next year when we have an opening. (I kid)

[CDu]

If you think that’s snippy you ought to see me when I’ve had a few beers and bourbon

You are a better poster than tone judger, I’ll give you that.

Coleman failed to see the big picture of coming to Duke University and developing. For someone many described as a guy who was the quintessential 4-year recruit who will develop and be a good steward for Duke basketball and the school, it is disappointing he didn’t stay where I can virtually guarantee he would have gotten his shot as a junior and senior.

I don’t think even Coach K could virtually guarantee that Coleman would have gotten his shot as a junior. Who is to say that we won’t be adding the next year’s Banchero and Griffin? And/or some more transfers? I am guessing Coleman got the picture that his opportunities are Duke were questionable.

The days of the “upper-tier recruits waiting their turn for 2-3 years” are probably over in general. They know they can go somewhere else and play. While it sucks for us fans, that is just the reality of players realizing that opportunity doesn’t have to come only at a prominent program.

[CameronDuke]

I don’t think even Coach K could virtually guarantee that Coleman would have gotten his shot as a junior. Who is to say that we won’t be adding the next year’s Banchero and Griffin? And/or some more transfers? I am guessing Coleman got the picture that his opportunities are Duke were questionable.

The days of the “upper-tier recruits waiting their turn for 2-3 years” are probably over in general. They know they can go somewhere else and play. While it sucks for us fans, that is just the reality of players realizing that opportunity doesn’t have to come only at a prominent program.

Guess I’ll have to agree to disagree about Coleman with you. Getting to be a pecker measuring contest ... Go Duke.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

As I think this through, I think that though the no-sit transfer rule might unfortunately be here to stay, the number of transfers might go down a bit as we work through all of the players with bonus years. Think about Duke - we brought in a guy who suddenly had a bonus year (John). We can debate whether there was cause-and-effect between that and Henry leaving or not (I think it is). But as a result, Henry leaves. If I understand correctly, you only get one no-sit transfer (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So Henry took his bite at the apple, as are a lot of other guys. If they want to transfer again, they have to sit.

But anyway, I think the numbers and the optics of it are definitely inflated by all of the fifth year seniors and then some of the transfers that occur downstream as a result of their transfers. I still think the whole situation stinks.

[jimsumner]

I'm not sure we'll go back to the sit-out year. I think the NCAA wants one free transfer moving forward.

It'll settle down as the covid bump in eligibility works through, though.

-jk

https://www.cbssports.com/college-fo...e-eligibility/

[Steven43]

Guess I’ll have to agree to disagree about Coleman with you. Getting to be a pecker measuring contest ... Go Duke.

Wow, you really went for it with that comment. Perhaps you have indeed imbibed those beers and bourbon you mentioned earlier. 😊

[CameronDuke]

Wow, you really went for it with that comment. Perhaps you have indeed imbibed those beers and bourbon you mentioned earlier. 😊

Just beer so far. But the night is young my friend ...

[kshepinthehouse]

Darn it. As I said repeatedly, I was optimistic that Coach K discussed the transfer of John with Henry. I guess I can understand wanting the more sure thing in John vs. a development project in Henry, but I was hoping I could have my cake and eat it to. Personally, I'm not sure if I would have taken John if it meant losing Henry, but who knows everything that went into this.

Very frustrating. He seems like a great kid who would have put in the work to develop into a valuable contributor. I remember being so impressed with how he spoke at the rally shortly after arriving at Duke.

Best of luck to him. And so much for the theory that the roster on GoDuke is finalized. Fingers crossed that Mark stays...

Maybe he already knew Henry was leaving and that's why they grabbed John.

[uh_no]

The sky certainly isn't falling though. Did you only like the player development aspect of Duke basketball?

no, but I'm also significantly less invested in it than I might have been. Not that the investment is currently small or anything, and even if the population HERE is not most seriously at risk, it is definitely the case among many casual fans I've talked to.

[Phredd3]

Coleman failed to see the big picture of coming to Duke University and developing. For someone many described as a guy who was the quintessential 4-year recruit who will develop and be a good steward for Duke basketball and the school, it is disappointing he didn’t stay where I can virtually guarantee he would have gotten his shot as a junior and senior.

I don't know about the virtual guarantee, but it still seems to me that the main issue for a player like Coleman is development and the value of a Duke education.

It seems to me that current players don't really consider the first of these. Having John on the roster is a way for Coleman to get better. It is arguably better for his basketball career to have John here than not. John would be direct competition daily. If this were a law firm, sure - you don't want competition for your position. But this is school. Competition and mentoring/coaching make you better, and better means more marketable. A guy like Coleman won't play a minute in the NBA, no matter how much playing time he gets. But he has a viable career in other leagues if he improves from where he is. I think his leaving is a career mistake, despite other people's view that all he needs is playing time. I'll be happy to eat my words if I'm wrong, but I think what Coleman needs most is to improve, and there aren't many places he could go that will challenge him and make him better the way Duke will.

As for the value of the Duke degree - which many on this board have, and as a consequence, appear to undervalue - I don't have that, and I can tell you that the value of my degree is entirely due to the fact that I HAVE a degree. Having it from the particular institution I attended does not add to the value at all. Having a degree from Duke does add value. I've seen it. I don't know how to measure that added value, but I'd guess it has the potential to be quite significant, up to and including having a job relevant to one's degree at all. If you are a player like Coleman, you are extremely unlikely to make retirement-level money playing basketball. So the added value of having a degree from Duke matters in a way it might not for a player destined to be an NBA first-rounder, where the money is life-changing (see the Mark Williams thread).

All of this sounds like I'm dissing Coleman, which is not my intent. I actually really like the guy, and am very sad he's leaving. But part of the reason I'm sad is because I think he just made a questionable life decision.