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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    Right on ...

    Just wish he wasn’t so darn strong or his Nikes weren’t so darn weak and he wouldn’t have blown out his sole like an 18 wheeler rumblin’ down 95 South at 80 mph through eastern North Carolina ...
    Freeeeee throoooows.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by BobBender View Post
    Hmm, I’m cool with being on the other side of Kyrie Irving on just about any issue. I’m actually embarrassed he is associated with Duke. If he reads this , he might even have to take another week off for his oft-used “personal reasons”.
    I am much more proud of Kyrie’s association with Duke than many of the “students” who attended university with me, lying and cheating while partying their way to a degree and a path to a high paying job.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    This analysis is flawed. As you note, there are very few teams each year with lottery-pick one-and-done talent on their team, whereas there are hundreds that don't have such players. In a six-game, single-elimination tournament, you want volume of teams. So it is not surprising that more teams without one-and-dones have won titles.

    Look, we get that you don't like the way we've gone about recruiting, and that's fine. But the data suggest pretty strongly that having the best talent leads to better results. It doesn't always lead to titles, and we can debate whether it is preferable to field a less consistently awesome team but a more college-like team. But saying that only 20% of the Final Four teams had one-and-done stars and only 2 of 15 title teams had one-and-done stars is not a reasonable way of arguing in favor of going away from one-and-dones.
    And we all get that Duke could be on a 20 year Final Four drought and you’d still be defending the “get the best talent and bring in multi OAD” approach.

    14 lottery picks a year. Of the past 15 championships, only 2 have been won with a lottery pick OAD. I get that it’s against the field, but that’s a lot of OAD lottery picks and teams vs the field to only produce 2 championships. If it’s a superior recruiting strategy, you’d expect better results. Back to Duke - since we fully embraced multi OAD after 2015, we are on our longest Final 4 drought since when? 1986?

    My issue is that posters like you just want to shut down the debate. I love your posts. You’re maybe the most prolific and knowledgeable poster here. But it’s not a black and white case, especially when you factor in fan engagement and athlete engagement in the full Duke experience. Just wish you and others wouldn’t shut down a worthwhile debate on a complex issue. We weren’t always fully on the OAD train, and one day we might not be again.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by BobBender View Post
    Hmm, I’m cool with being on the other side of Kyrie Irving on just about any issue. I’m actually embarrassed he is associated with Duke. If he reads this , he might even have to take another week off for his oft-used “personal reasons”.
    Well bless your heart.

    Kyrie has done a lot of work off the court, and even on the court he seems well liked by both teammates and opponents. Count me in as one of his supporters. No, that doesn’t mean I agree with everything that he says or does. But overall I think he’s a fine representative for the University. I’m glad he was and will always be a Duke Blue Devil.

  5. #405
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington, DC
    I'm so thankful that I got to be in the crowd one of Kyrie's eight games in a Duke uniform.

    It was against Portland or Portland State, and he did things with that ball that looked like genuine magic. Never seen anything like it.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    . Back to Duke - since we fully embraced multi OAD after 2015, we are on our longest Final 4 drought since when? 1986?
    2009 if you go by the # of tournaments actually played (ie not counting 2020 since there was no tournament).

    We experienced a 5-6 year FF drought literally every decade K has been at Duke - obviously it’s not possible to have more than one such drought in a single decade.

    Since our incredible 7 out of 9 FFs streak, we’ve been there 5 times in 27 (or 26) years. Not quite once every five years. What we’re seeing now is only a drought by comparison to our own nearly impossible standards.

  7. #407
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    2009 if you go by the # of tournaments actually played (ie not counting 2020 since there was no tournament).

    We experienced a 5-6 year FF drought literally every decade K has been at Duke - obviously it’s not possible to have more than one such drought in a single decade.

    Since our incredible 7 out of 9 FFs streak, we’ve been there 5 times in 27 (or 26) years. Not quite once every five years. What we’re seeing now is only a drought by comparison to our own nearly impossible standards.
    One of my favorite Duke stats is that every class from the class of 1986 through the class of 2007 got to see a final four except the class of 98 (I have many friends in the class of 98 who don't like to be reminded of that).

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    And we all get that Duke could be on a 20 year Final Four drought and you’d still be defending the “get the best talent and bring in multi OAD” approach.
    No, I wouldn't. I didn't misstate your position, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misstate mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    14 lottery picks a year. Of the past 15 championships, only 2 have been won with a lottery pick OAD. I get that it’s against the field, but that’s a lot of OAD lottery picks and teams vs the field to only produce 2 championships. If it’s a superior recruiting strategy, you’d expect better results. Back to Duke - since we fully embraced multi OAD after 2015, we are on our longest Final 4 drought since when? 1986?
    And even that is disingenuous, as we were literally a made shot away from the Final Four on two different occasions, and there wasn't a tournament in one of those years. And I would argue that the reason we weren't in better position for a Final Four this year was because we DIDN'T have a one-and-done heavy team this year. Aside from that? We've had a 5 tournament drought between 2004 and 2010 in which we had no Elite-8 appearances. We've had a 5 tournament drought from 2015-2021, in which we've had two elite-8 appearances. I'd say we've fared better in this recent period than we did in 2005-2009.

    Also, you have conveniently tossed out "14 lottery picks each year...", but not all 14 lottery picks are one-and-dones each year. Some are European. Some are sophs or upperclassmen. You've omitted several lottery picks from championship teams over the years. Either trim the list appropriately for the number of teams relying heavily on one-and-dones (so 2 or 3 a year), or lump the lottery picks overall into your statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    My issue is that posters like you just want to shut down the debate. I love your posts. You’re maybe the most prolific and knowledgeable poster here. But it’s not a black and white case, especially when you factor in fan engagement and athlete engagement in the full Duke experience. Just wish you and others wouldn’t shut down a worthwhile debate on a complex issue. We weren’t always fully on the OAD train, and one day we might not be again.
    And see, that's the thing: I don't want to shut down the debate at all. I have never once said we shouldn't talk about it. I just want the discussion to be based in reasonable arguments, not disingenuous statements. You can certainly make the argument that you would rather us recruit lesser talent and hope for them to stay longer. I will continue to say that I think you'll have trouble actually keeping those players for 3-4 years unless you go much further down the recruiting rankings than you think you need to, ESPECIALLY with the latest rule change regarding transfers. That doesn't mean I want the discussion shut down. Not at all. I just think you need to tweak your expectations a bit further than what you are suggesting.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Look, we get that you don't like the way we've gone about recruiting, and that's fine. But the data suggest pretty strongly that having the best talent leads to better results. It doesn't always lead to titles, and we can debate whether it is preferable to field a less consistently awesome team but a more college-like team. But saying that only 20% of the Final Four teams had one-and-done stars and only 2 of 15 title teams had one-and-done stars is not a reasonable way of arguing in favor of going away from one-and-dones.
    Sure, this is a fair point. Still, the fact that the vast majority of title teams don't have any OAD player, let alone heavily rely on them, at least makes the issue debatable. It's not as clear cut as "well, obviously recruiting tons of OAD players is the best approach" either.

    The guys that are absolutely killing us are Cassius Stanley, DJ Steward, Frank Jackson, Trevon Duvall, Gary Trent Jr. I mean, if you keep everything the same except just have GTJ stick around one more year as we probably expected, then we fix the 2019 team's biggest weakness, and not only win the national title but go down as one of the all-time great teams. In practice it's just so hard to predict who's going to leave after 1 year of that kind of group these days, though. No easy answers.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    No, I wouldn't. I didn't misstate your position, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't misstate mine.



    And even that is disingenuous, as we were literally a made shot away from the Final Four on two different occasions, and there wasn't a tournament in one of those years. And I would argue that the reason we weren't in better position for a Final Four this year was because we DIDN'T have a one-and-done heavy team this year. Aside from that? We've had a 5 tournament drought between 2004 and 2010 in which we had no Elite-8 appearances. We've had a 5 tournament drought from 2015-2021, in which we've had two elite-8 appearances. I'd say we've fared better in this recent period than we did in 2005-2009.

    Also, you have conveniently tossed out "14 lottery picks each year...", but not all 14 lottery picks are one-and-dones each year. Some are European. Some are sophs or upperclassmen. You've omitted several lottery picks from championship teams over the years. Either trim the list appropriately for the number of teams relying heavily on one-and-dones (so 2 or 3 a year), or lump the lottery picks overall into your statement.



    And see, that's the thing: I don't want to shut down the debate at all. I have never once said we shouldn't talk about it. I just want the discussion to be based in reasonable arguments, not disingenuous statements. You can certainly make the argument that you would rather us recruit lesser talent and hope for them to stay longer. I will continue to say that I think you'll have trouble actually keeping those players for 3-4 years unless you go much further down the recruiting rankings than you think you need to, ESPECIALLY with the latest rule change regarding transfers. That doesn't mean I want the discussion shut down. Not at all. I just think you need to tweak your expectations a bit further than what you are suggesting.
    Ok, let’s agree not to shut down the debate. Some agreement is good. And point taken that we’ve fared better the past 5 years than we did 05-09. Let’s hope we break out of it next year just like we did in 2010.

    We have a pretty special combination of OAD and returning talent. And everything I’m reading and watching on Banchero makes me think he could be one of those transcendent talents who lifts the whole team up to his level. I can raise the question about the multi OAD approach and still be very excited about next year’s squad.

  11. #411
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I am much more proud of Kyrie’s association with Duke than many of the “students” who attended university with me, lying and cheating while partying their way to a degree and a path to a high paying job.
    There must be some great stories behind your experience. I assume you went to UNC and not Duke.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    There must be some great stories behind your experience. I assume you went to UNC and not Duke.
    I earned my AB from Duke the correct way, but plenty of people did not. UNC frat boys may have perfected the art, but quite a few Duke frat boys were just fine at cheating.
    Carolina delenda est

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I earned my AB from Duke the correct way, but plenty of people did not. UNC frat boys may have perfected the art, but quite a few Duke frat boys were just fine at cheating.
    When did you graduate?

  14. #414
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    And we all get that Duke could be on a 20 year Final Four drought and you’d still be defending the “get the best talent and bring in multi OAD” approach.

    14 lottery picks a year. Of the past 15 championships, only 2 have been won with a lottery pick OAD. I get that it’s against the field, but that’s a lot of OAD lottery picks and teams vs the field to only produce 2 championships. If it’s a superior recruiting strategy, you’d expect better results. Back to Duke - since we fully embraced multi OAD after 2015, we are on our longest Final 4 drought since when? 1986?

    My issue is that posters like you just want to shut down the debate. I love your posts. You’re maybe the most prolific and knowledgeable poster here. But it’s not a black and white case, especially when you factor in fan engagement and athlete engagement in the full Duke experience. Just wish you and others wouldn’t shut down a worthwhile debate on a complex issue. We weren’t always fully on the OAD train, and one day we might not be again.
    C'mon, man! When you disagree with CDu, you can't go on and say nice things about him -- you're just egging him on.

    On your main points, this is not an easy problem with an obvious solution. Duke is one of the few schools that can really attract multiple players with top talent (OAD's). And, our recruiting has evolved in the sense that we are recruiting more players, including 4-stars who would normally not turn pro after one year (or two or three). As we have seen with the title player of this thread, it is even tough to retain some of these.

    I don't see the lack of competitiveness you imagine. In 2018, we had a 90+ percent chance with one minute remaining of beating Kansas (three-point lead and the ball) and going to the FF, and fate intervened. In 2019, I think we win it all if Zion stays healthy, but even so, we lost in the Elite Eight by a point.

    In 2017 we had a decade's worth of injuries -- Tatum, Giles, Grayson's meltdown, etc.

    In 2020, where -- unlike in 2017, 2018 and 2019 -- we didn't have ANY lottery picks on the roster, the team was up and down but had two good showings prior to the cancellation of the season.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    Well bless your heart.

    Kyrie has done a lot of work off the court, and even on the court he seems well liked by both teammates and opponents. Count me in as one of his supporters. No, that doesn’t mean I agree with everything that he says or does. But overall I think he’s a fine representative for the University. I’m glad he was and will always be a Duke Blue Devil.
    To address both your points
    (1) undeniably Kyrie is a high profile player in the league and undoubtedly NO teammate who is further down the ladder is going to take him on publicly. But if the rank and file members of the Brooklyn Nets support him off the record it would be mind-blowingly surprising. He is as unreliable a teammate as I’ve ever seen in professional sports. He blows off games for weeks at a time whenever the mood strikes.
    (2) three of my children live in Kyrie’s hometown ( Montclair, NJ). They are unabashed Duke fans because of me. They have never seen or heard of Kyrie doing anything in that “ community” ( a word which is tossed around freely whenever a tragedy occurs but not really an accurate portrayal of many neighborhoods).
    So this urban legend that Kyrie is some kind of eccentric urban Robin Hood is pure BS. At least. In his home turf of Essex County, NJ, he is invisible. 11 games at Duke bought him a lot of fans, but the truth is a bit murkier than what you guys are selling .

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by BobBender View Post
    I’m with CameronDuke 100% on this.
    And the usefulness of the “Brotherhood” that you point out is exactly what is going on in broader American society today. To wit, every group has there own “truth”, their own “facts”. That is without regard to whether it is real or not.
    The Brotherhood marketing garbage might work on 17 year-old basketball prodigies, but by age 19 a different truth emerges. It should be retired.
    And every non-Duke fan laughs in my face whenever i jokingly bring it up.
    Really, you're surprised when you "jokingly" bring up (I'm sure with the accompanying eye roll) the Brotherhood, and a Duke-hating fan laughs at it? You made it a joke--and you're surprised that a UNCheat or Ky fan exhibits a lack of respect for anything Duke?

    But, as long as the issue is truth, on what do you base your assertion that all Duke basketball players and alums over the age of 19 feel that the Brotherhood is "marketing garbage?"

    And when Coach K refers to the (lower case) brotherhood between his former players, is he a cynical manipulator, or a starry-eyed fool?

    https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/25274579 "Why the Duke Brotherhood is Special"

    Oh well, I guess you know more than the players.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    C'mon, man! When you disagree with CDu, you can't go on and say nice things about him -- you're just egging him on.

    On your main points, this is not an easy problem with an obvious solution. Duke is one of the few schools that can really attract multiple players with top talent (OAD's). And, our recruiting has evolved in the sense that we are recruiting more players, including 4-stars who would normally not turn pro after one year (or two or three). As we have seen with the title player of this thread, it is even tough to retain some of these.

    I don't see the lack of competitiveness you imagine. In 2018, we had a 90+ percent chance with one minute remaining of beating Kansas (three-point lead and the ball) and going to the FF, and fate intervened. In 2019, I think we win it all if Zion stays healthy, but even so, we lost in the Elite Eight by a point.

    In 2017 we had a decade's worth of injuries -- Tatum, Giles, Grayson's meltdown, etc.

    In 2020, where -- unlike in 2017, 2018 and 2019 -- we didn't have ANY lottery picks on the roster, the team was up and down but had two good showings prior to the cancellation of the season.
    I'm honored. Another favorite poster jumping in... You make great points. I can't make the case that focusing exclusively on expected multi-year talented players (ex, #30-70 recruits) would produce better teams. We have been pretty outstanding from 2016-19 not to have made a Final 4. I just don't think it's black and white that the reverse is true and prioritizing multi-OAD classes is producing superior teams. I could use the data to argue either side. And I know there are a lot of Duke fans out there that would prefer watching players develop for multiple years and who would like to see more players embracing the full Duke academic and social experience.

    It's a complex problem without an easy answer. It hurts all of us to watch guys like Brakefield and Coleman leave when we'd love to see them starting as battle-hardened juniors and seniors. And the reality is that it doesn't matter what any of us fans think. We've got the best coaches in the business and it's their decision. The landscape is changing again in a big way and I know they'll adapt as they always have.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    If it’s a superior recruiting strategy, you’d expect better results.
    In the 15 year period you're talking about, how many schools have won more championships than Duke?

    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBrickey View Post
    Back to Duke - since we fully embraced multi OAD after 2015, we are on our longest Final 4 drought since when? 1986?
    Actually, since 2009. Which by my count wasn't that long ago. But I think the real disconnect is your apparent underlying assumption that the best teams make the Final Four every year, which is clearly untrue. In the five tournaments since our last Final Four, we've seen a #10 seed in the Final Four, then a #7 seed, then a #11, then a #5, then another #11. Unless you're suggesting that those low seeds were better teams than, e.g., Duke's 2018 and 2019 teams, then you're measurement of success kind of falls flat.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    In 2020, where -- unlike in 2017, 2018 and 2019 -- we didn't have ANY lottery picks on the roster, the team was up and down but had two good showings prior to the cancellation of the season.
    What about a lottery pick who left the team, which arguably made it better? I’ve seen mock drafts with him as high as 10th or 12th.

  20. #420
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Lot's of good discussion even it's on Coleman transfer thread. I'll just add, I had rather watch a Zion, Tatum, Ingram, Carter, Bagley type season than what I watched last season. In other words, true OAD players. My definition of a OAD is players like the ones I listed and not Johnson and DJ type players from last years team. I don't see how a college program can be elite with players ranked anywhere from 90-100 without using the transfer portal. If Duke can win 20+ games, make the NCAAT, be in the top 3 in the ACC regular season and beat the Cheats, I'll be very happy.
    Oh, I like Kyrie and I'm ok with The Brotherhood but I hope I don't hear, "we got knocked back" anytime soon.

    GoDuke!

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