Mark Williams confirms he is coming back to Duke for year #2

[DevilYouKnow]

Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

That's rather cynical. Their father is a successful gastroenterologist, so I doubt the family's emphasis on education is just lip service, as is the case for some families. That was my point moreso than saying her decision would influence his.

I hope he stays, but understand if he doesn't.

[Bluedog]

Had Elizabeth Williams been born a man, the value she puts on her Duke education may not have been quite so high.

This has absolutely no bearing on Mark's decision, IMO.

If Mark comes back this year, we are lucky, but otherwise he will be gone next spring.

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

That's rather cynical. Their father is a successful gastroenterologist, so I doubt the family's emphasis on education is just lip service, as is the case for some families. That was my point moreso than saying her decision would influence his.

I hope he stays, but understand if he doesn't.

I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

WNBA 1st Pick Salary (1st Year): $68,000


NBA 1st Pick Salary (1st Year): $8,139,400



Between a WNBA salary and the cost of tuition/boarding, it's basically a wash. The NBA? That's a different story.

[dukelifer]

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

If Duke embraced remote learning more- I suspect more bball players would take advantage.

[DU82]

I agree that we will be lucky if Mark stays for long (although at this point I think him staying for the 21-22 year is more likely than not). However, I don't agree with your first two sentences. The point about Elizabeth is that she and her family value education highly. That attitude has a bearing on Mark's decision, even if it may not be dispositive. It's the relative value of the education compared to other alternatives that differs, not the absolute value.

I don't think that's just a semantic distinction, even though it leads to roughly the same conclusion.

Even if he leaves early, it would not surprise me to see Mark come back to Duke to finish his undergrad work and potentially get an advanced degree. Which won't help us as fans of the team, of course.

A relative was one of Mark's high school teachers. Based on his performance in her class, I can report that Mark takes his education seriously. (And is a terrific young man and one of her favorite students.)

[Bluedog]

If Duke embraced remote learning more- I suspect more bball players would take advantage.

I agree with you, but this is quite an ironic statement given the happenings of this past year. Duke, historically, is notorious for requiring in person classwork and eschewing transfer credits. Definitely makes it harder for a "non traditional" student to obtain his or her degree.

[dukelifer]

I agree with you, but this is quite an ironic statement given the happenings of this past year. Duke, historically, is notorious for requiring in person classwork and eschewing transfer credits. Definitely makes it harder for a "non traditional" student to obtain his or her degree.

I heard that Rodney Hood is taking advantage this year. Duke needs to get into the 21st century on this one. There is a market for it.

[Edouble]

I think Edouble's point was simply that the calculus for potential NBA players is different than WNBA players given the ENORMOUS salary/financial windfall afforded to professional male basketball players. But, yes, agreed that that doesn't mean they don't highly value education, simply that the opportunity to guarantee multiple millions and generational wealth at a very young age would be a factor in consideration -- and that skews differently for male and female players given the huge difference in contracts. (But yes, agreed that is "relative value" as opposed to the "absolute value"). And this is certainly logical and I don't think Edouble is faulting anybody -- merely calling out the difference. The opposite is also true -- if Mark William's financial prospects were on the WNBA scale, he'd be more likely to stay four years.

Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that.

The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro. Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that.

The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro. Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

Interest in education and family finances matter on the margin. If you are projected as a first round pick, that is generally life changing money and these issues don't really matter. But if you are a more marginal player, whether you like being in school and whether a G-League salary will keep a roof over your family's head/put food on the table is something that really comes into consideration. Which aligns with the point upthread about women's salaries vs. men's salaries.

[indy1duke]

Yes, all of this is what I am saying.

However much Mark Williams values education... it just doesn't really matter. At all.

There were people on here thinking Jabari was gonna come back because he was such a "different" kind of kid and he valued education and all that.

[B]The value that Mark Williams or his family puts on education, at the end of the day, plays no factor into his decision to go pro.[/B] Mentioning his father's or his sister's career choices just plays no factor in Mark's decision to forego his college eligibility. I really wish it did, but to think otherwise is to be pontificating with blinders on.

If Mark is projected as a first round pick, he is gone. Even if he is not a projected first round pick, if he plays next season the way he did the last 1/3 of this season, he is most likely gone too.

Maybe you know Mark and his family or perhaps you have an inside source, but if you don’t I am curious how you can make such a bold statement. Don’t tell me it’s all about the money. There is a great value to going to college far beyond the degree. It is a safe place to grow up and learn how to become an adult. It has always seemed to me the challenge for a professional ball player is to attain the emotional stability and the wisdom to handle early wealth. That means learning who to trust, figuring out how to hire and relate to your agent, attorney and financial planner. The number of former NBA players who file for bankruptcy is staggering. Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article stating that within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. This idea of generational wealth and vast riches is exaggerated for most NBA players, and NFL players fare even worse. Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Maybe you know Mark and his family or perhaps you have an inside source, but if you don’t I am curious how you can make such a bold statement. Don’t tell me it’s all about the money. There is a great value to going to college far beyond the degree. It is a safe place to grow up and learn how to become an adult. It has always seemed to me the challenge for a professional ball player is to attain the emotional stability and the wisdom to handle early wealth. That means learning who to trust, figuring out how to hire and relate to your agent, attorney and financial planner. The number of former NBA players who file for bankruptcy is staggering. Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy article stating that within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke. This idea of generational wealth and vast riches is exaggerated for most NBA players, and NFL players fare even worse. Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities.

The idea that a 20 year old man isn't mature enough to handle piles of money feels pretty patronizing to me. We don't require tech millionaires to take financial management classes.

School doesn't evaporate when a player goes to the NBA. In fact, the amount of money made in the NBA assures that college will remain an option long past scholarship eligibility.

I'd even wager that a former player who returns as a student is better focused on studies than players in class during the season.

[MarkD83]

The idea that a 20 year old man isn't mature enough to handle piles of money feels pretty patronizing to me. We don't require tech millionaires to take financial management classes.

School doesn't evaporate when a player goes to the NBA. In fact, the amount of money made in the NBA assures that college will remain an option long past scholarship eligibility.

I'd even wager that a former player who returns as a student is better focused on studies than players in class during the season.

"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

I think Duke requires 34 classes to graduate. The schedule for classes could be:
The student enters with 2 AP credits and then takes 2 classes the Summer before freshman year (4 classes)
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of freshman year (12 total)
4 classes over the Summer of freshman year (16 total) - This might be a bit much.
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of sophomore year (24 total)
2 classes in the Summer before the NBA season (26 total)
The 8 remaining classes can then be taken 2 at a time over the next 4 Summers...or if there are on-line classes these can be spread out over the 4 years.

This is ambitious and not for everyone but if a student/athlete wants to get a degree this could work.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

I think Duke requires 34 classes to graduate. The schedule for classes could be:
The student enters with 2 AP credits and then takes 2 classes the Summer before freshman year (4 classes)
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of freshman year (12 total)
4 classes over the Summer of freshman year (16 total) - This might be a bit much.
4 classes in the Fall and 4 in the Spring of sophomore year (24 total)
2 classes in the Summer before the NBA season (26 total)
The 8 remaining classes can then be taken 2 at a time over the next 4 Summers...or if there are on-line classes these can be spread out over the 4 years.

This is ambitious and not for everyone but if a student/athlete wants to get a degree this could work.

I mean, I know Jay Williams got his degree in three years, but it sounds really unrealistic for a student athlete, with all the additional demands that go along with that role, to graduate in half the time of a "regular" student.

Regardless, I have no issue with that being offered or pursued. And sure, classes in investing and personal finance would obviously be fine.

My only issue was this perception that somehow 20 year olds are "not ready" for fame/fortune. A tiny percentage of the world gets this lucky - actors, models, tech wizards, etc. To hold (predominantly black) athletes back for their own good sits very wrong with me. And using the excuse of "they need q better education" doubles down on the parternalism.

I feel a sense of great pride when a former Duke player comes back and takes classes after exhausting eligiblity requirements, but I don't wag my finger and "tsk" those who choose another path.

[bshrader]

All these cryptic tweets are really starting to worry me. I know Jason says his sources indicate strongly that Mark is returning. I just wonder if anything has changed in the last week or so...Jason, any updates?

[DavidBenAkiva]

All these cryptic tweets are really starting to worry me. I know Jason says his sources indicate strongly that Mark is returning. I just wonder if anything has changed in the last week or so...Jason, any updates?

The players have lives outside of basketball. For all we know, Mark and Henry could have been playing a scavenger hunt or watching a TV show. Unless there's something explicitly about the game, I would pay no mind.

[sagegrouse]

"Tailoring courses to guide future professional athletes on handling their future wealth and all its complications should be a priority at Duke and similarly situated universities." I read indy1dukes quote as a list of course offerings rather than requirements. Think of it like a finance / economics major...here are several courses we recommend it might be good to take a few of these. A 20 year old may know how to budget and control spending but investing large sums of money is quite complicated. And in the words of a great Duke scholar, Grant Hill, "It is not how much you make it is how much you keep."

On another similar note, one of the appeals of Duke is/was a Duke degree. The earlier a player leaves for the NBA the harder it is to get that degree due to the number of classes needed and the free time to take the classes. I always have thought that 2 full years at Duke for players that want to earn a degree makes it doable.

It should be mentioned that there are a lot of good-paying jobs coaching college hoops. Those, with some exceptions I suppose, require a college degree.

And most -- by number -- who play in the NBA play only a few years and don't get the big contract. And playing overseas is fine, and pays well by normal standards -- but is not a "set for life" situation.

And a few -- I hope a very few -- burn up $100 million and have nothing to show for it except bankruptcy court.

[Indoor66]

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

This is an absolutely fair take.

[Indoor66]

This is an absolutely fair take.

Thank you.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A mature, responsible outlook on life and family is the grounding needed to handle NBA level income. Finance courses might help but immaturity will assure failure - both financially and in career length. These young people need a period of grounded growth to succeed - just like non-athletes.

No course at Duke is going to help with this. No one takes a "personal finance" course, if that even exists. As you mentioned, you learn through maturity, but you also learn through family/friends. Another year at Duke will help with the maturity, and it will probably help with gaining new networks/connections/friends who can help navigate you through the bazillions of dollars you'll be making at 20-years old.

But if you already have a strong network and a family who understands money management, I'm not sure what another year at Duke - or any university - will provide on that front.