2021 NCAA Men's Final Four (Gonzaga, Baylor, Houston, UCLA)

[wsb3]

Gonzaga reminds me of our 1999 team - dominant but had a bad game at the worst possible time.

UC, that start reminded me of Duke Kansas 88. Where Duke had a horrible start and played catch up for the rest of the game and never could get there.

[rsvman]

Gonzaga reminds me of our 1999 team - dominant but had a bad game at the worst possible time.

Please.


Our 1999 team would beat this Zags team 9 out of 10 games without much trouble. Maybe all 10. Plus we were in the final up until the last moments, not blown out.

This Zags team was a very good team that would have done very well in the ACC this year. Definitely one of the 2 or 3 best teams in the country and with some solid wins. But to compare them with our 1999 team is a stretch, imo.

[Dukehk]

zags really need to play in a conference that is actually competitive. I'm surprised they havent made the move to the Pac yet.

I feel it hurts their NCAA tourney "battle-readiness" every season. The other side of it is that they get to pad their record and walk into the no.1 seed in the west almost every season.

Thats really got to stop now. This zags team would have had a few losses if it played in a proper conference.

Its nowhere near any of the great duke teams. Not even close.

Baylor disapatched of them much too easily and exposed their defensive weaknesses against guard play.

[Wander]

To be fair, I don't think people are saying Gonzaga sucks.

Also to be fair, double-digit neutral-court wins over teams outside the top-20 of KenPom and Torvik (Kansas, Oklahoma, and Virginia) aren't all that impressive. The wins over USC and Iowa were very nice, and they certainly deserve credit for a difficult path through the tourney. But it's a team that played only 2 top-20 teams over the course of the regular season, which inflated their stature at least a little.

The only reason folks are "dunking on" them is because the foolish narrative being presented on sports TV/radio about them possibly being the best ever. It's a good, veteran team, with one legitimate NBA talent, playing in a weak conference. They were certainly deserving of a 1 seed, and were certainly one of the two best teams this year. But it does appear that the talking heads were overrating them a bit.

I just don't think anyone here really thought they were ever the best team of all time – I agree that would be an overhype. We do however have posters questioning whether they "belonged in the title game", a mod making like 7 in-game posts whining about the refs that actually Baylor should be up by more than 30 points, etc. It all reminds of me of anti-Duke sentiment (well, really anti-Duke sentiment from the pre-OAD era).

But, obviously agree with you the rankings of this season deserve to be 1. Baylor and 2. Gonzaga. It really did look like Gonzaga only had one NBA-caliber player (Suggs) with nearly everyone else overmatched.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The only reason folks are "dunking on" them is because the foolish narrative being presented on sports TV/radio about them possibly being the best ever. It's a good, veteran team, with one legitimate NBA talent, playing in a weak conference. They were certainly deserving of a 1 seed, and were certainly one of the two best teams this year. But it does appear that the talking heads were overrating them a bit.

I didn't hear anyone suggesting they were the best team ever. What I heard incessantly was media idiots asking the question "do they deserve to be in consideration for the best team ever?" and no one saying yes.

It's a dumb media way of hedging an idea but "just asking the question." I can't recall one person replying in the affirmative.

Colin Cowherd is the worst at this, though I never listen to him any more out of principal. I can just hear his voice yesterday "Now... Im not saying that if Gonzaga wins they are the best team ever. But, if they win big don't you have to at least ask the question?"

Ugh.

[Billy Dat]

I thought that when the Baylor bigs got into serious foul trouble in the second half, that Gonzaga had a chance to play through Timme and come back strong but then he foolishly committed two straight fouls himself, got hurt, was popping pillies on the sidelines and that potential path back shut right down.

I just don't think anyone here really thought they were ever the best team of all time – I agree that would be an overhype. We do however have posters questioning whether they "belonged in the title game", a mod making like 7 in-game posts whining about the refs that actually Baylor should be up by more than 30 points, etc. It all reminds of me of anti-Duke sentiment (well, really anti-Duke sentiment from the pre-OAD era). But, obviously agree with you the rankings of this season deserve to be 1. Baylor and 2. Gonzaga. It really did look like Gonzaga only had one NBA-caliber player (Suggs) with nearly everyone else overmatched.

I agree that the national media flocked to Gonzaga the way they seemed to flock to Duke in the late 80s when K first had the team knocking on the door year after year. So many people wanted this team to be anointed. The 3-week COVID pause Baylor endured, which is insane when you think about it, obscured the fact that they were every bit as good. Maybe Baylor goes unbeaten without the pause, in a major conference. I heard Gary Parrish (CBS) say that not playing the regular season game was, in retrospect, bad for Gonzaga because had they had round 1 with Baylor, they'd have known what was coming and maybe that first 5 minute knockout punch doesn't land.

Timme is really annoying. If he played at Duke he would be public enemy no 1.

Maybe Timme is the catalyst for people turning on the Zags the way that they turned on Duke. But, Gonzaga would have had to win for that to happen. Assuming he stays, we get to see it up close in Vegas over Thanksgiving. Hopefully Mark Williams is around to try and stop him.

Yeah, but Timme I think most people knew was not really a serious NBA prospect. Kispert is ranked in the top 10 picks in some mock drafts... for some reason. I don't get it, totally exposed.

JJ didn't look to good in 2006 getting shut town by Tasmin Mitchell and the other NBA dudes on LSU. I agree his stock took a hit last night, and he didn't play well in the final four, but I think he'll have a nice NBA career. I think he's like Joe Harris, and I am sure he'll be a first rounder.

Congrats to Baylor. They were a really fun team to watch and the rebuilding and ascension of that program under Scott Drew, after the horrendous multifaceted scandal headlined by one teammate killing another, is an all time amazing resurrection story.

[Rich]

I think he's like Joe Harris, and I am sure he'll be a first rounder.

Speaking of, I went to the Nets vs. Rockets game last week and Harris ended with 28 points (10-17 FG, 7-12 3Pt, 1-1 FT) and six rebounds in 37 minutes during the Nets' 120-108 victory. Harris is a 6'6" shooting guard/small forward in the NBA and the ultimate blue collar guy. Timme is 6'10" and plays inside. I don't see the comparison.

[rsvman]

Speaking of, I went to the Nets vs. Rockets game last week and Harris ended with 28 points (10-17 FG, 7-12 3Pt, 1-1 FT) and six rebounds in 37 minutes during the Nets' 120-108 victory. Harris is a 6'6" shooting guard/small forward in the NBA and the ultimate blue collar guy. Timme is 6'10" and plays inside. I don't see the comparison.

Maybe that's because they are talking about Kispert, not Timme.

[Rich]

Maybe that's because they are talking about Kispert, not Timme.

Oooops, nevermind!

(Actually, I also don't see Kispert getting into the muck and doing all the little things like Harris does. Kispert might have a role as a spot up 3 point shooter)

[CDu]

Please.


Our 1999 team would beat this Zags team 9 out of 10 games without much trouble. Maybe all 10. Plus we were in the final up until the last moments, not blown out.

This Zags team was a very good team that would have done very well in the ACC this year. Definitely one of the 2 or 3 best teams in the country and with some solid wins. But to compare them with our 1999 team is a stretch, imo.

Yes, that 1999 Duke team had arguably 3 players better than Gonzaga's best player (2 almost certainly better in Brand and Maggette, and Battier was probably better too), and perhaps the next two most talented players after Suggs in Langdon and Avery.

This Gonzaga team was a very good team that almost certainly doesn't go undefeated through the regular season if they played in a P5 conference. But it paled in comparison to the talent on that 1999 team.

[CDu]

I just don't think anyone here really thought they were ever the best team of all time – I agree that would be an overhype. We do however have posters questioning whether they "belonged in the title game", a mod making like 7 in-game posts whining about the refs that actually Baylor should be up by more than 30 points, etc. It all reminds of me of anti-Duke sentiment (well, really anti-Duke sentiment from the pre-OAD era).

I don't think any of that is "a lot of people dunking on" the Zags or saying that they sucked.

[simplyluvin]

zags really need to play in a conference that is actually competitive. I'm surprised they havent made the move to the Pac yet.

I feel it hurts their NCAA tourney "battle-readiness" every season. The other side of it is that they get to pad their record and walk into the no.1 seed in the west almost every season.

Thats really got to stop now. This zags team would have had a few losses if it played in a proper conference.

Its nowhere near any of the great duke teams. Not even close.

Baylor disapatched of them much too easily and exposed their defensive weaknesses against guard play.

A move to the Pac 12 could be in their interests. The issue is that they don’t have a football program, and the Pac 12 is in in the end a football conference (even if the weakest among Power 5). Doesn’t mean it can’t be done just for basketball, somewhat like ND does in the ACC. I don’t necessarily feel that the Zags being in a non-competitive conference was the reason they lost last night, but there is something to be said for building mental toughness throughout a season that the WCC probably doesn’t facilitate.

[mkirsh]

This Baylor team reminds me of the 2010 Duke team: three juniors, two seniors start. Bench is made up of underclassmen. Team grew up together, got better every season.

Good for them. Drew finally got his natty. Where's he going next? When is Cal jumping for the NBA?

But Teague, Mitchell, Flagler, and Tchatchoua all transferred in. They did get the partial season together last year, but not sure it’s the same category of “growing up together.” I agree that their age, maturity, and strength cartainly was an advantage for them this season.

[mkirsh]

Yes, that 1999 Duke team had arguably 3 players better than Gonzaga's best player (2 almost certainly better in Brand and Maggette, and Battier was probably better too), and perhaps the next two most talented players after Suggs in Langdon and Avery.

This Gonzaga team was a very good team that almost certainly doesn't go undefeated through the regular season if they played in a P5 conference. But it paled in comparison to the talent on that 1999 team.

Is it really fair to compare teams across eras on a head-to-head basis? With increased early entry and a larger dispersion of talent, the best teams in 99 had more talent and experience than the best teams this year. Similarly I could argue the 92 team was much better than the 99 team given the level of experience. But we have to judge them relative to their contemporaries as the game keeps changing. So no, Gonzaga does have as much talent as the 99 runner up or many other teams from other eras, but they did dominate most of CBB this year. Baylor was just better, but take Baylor out and I think Gonzaga was better than the rest of the field and not a fluke of a weak conference.

[75Crazie]

A move to the Pac 12 could be in their interests. The issue is that they don’t have a football program, and the Pac 12 is in in the end a football conference (even if the weakest among Power 5).

Thank you! I cannot get over the number of people saying that Gonzaga should move to a P5 conference, as if it is solely their own choice. The sport of importance in P5 is football, with basketball being a definite but decidedly subordinate second sport. I do not see any P5 conference (including the Pac-x) bringing in a non-football school. So I guess what I hear people saying is that, if Gonzaga does not wish to participate in football, it has no business being of any importance at all in basketball.

[flyingdutchdevil]

But Teague, Mitchell, Flagler, and Tchatchoua all transferred in. They did get the partial season together last year, but not sure it’s the same category of “growing up together.” I agree that their age, maturity, and strength cartainly was an advantage for them this season.

Wow! Really? Had no idea.

Drew and Few proved that the transfer market is a great way to replenish the pipeline and win.

[Bluedog]

Even with that beatdown, somehow Gonzaga still "won" the "kenpom championship" and by a decent margin. So, the advanced metrics (at least Ken Pomeroy's algorithm) think the game was anomalous. Any human watching it obviously certainly wouldn't think so and came away with the CLEAR conclusion that Baylor is the much better team. I guess shows you the limitations of computers -- or the limitations of human brains. I suppose we sometimes do see a team in the NBA get blown out of game 1 and then manage to still win the series. So, a sample size of 1 game isn't always indicative. With all that said, I'm not arguing Gonzaga is the better team. I think this season was also odd and the data probably isn't as reliable. Gonzaga clearly was a top 2-3 team in the country this year regardless.

[mkirsh]

Thank you! I cannot get over the number of people saying that Gonzaga should move to a P5 conference, as if it is solely their own choice. The sport of importance in P5 is football, with basketball being a definite but decidedly subordinate second sport. I do not see any P5 conference (including the Pac-x) bringing in a non-football school. So I guess what I hear people saying is that, if Gonzaga does not wish to participate in football, it has no business being of any importance at all in basketball.

This gives me opportunity for my standard rant here - why do schools let a sport that plays 8 conference games drive the bus for all other sports? It’s crazy that Rutgers soccer team has to travel to Nebraska for a weeknight match. I don’t understand why there aren’t football conferences, and then everything else conferences. Seems so much more logical for the majority of athletes on campus. I’m sure there are tons of complexities I’m missing but current system seems suboptimal.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wow! Really? Had no idea.

Drew and Few proved that the transfer market is a great way to replenish the pipeline and win.

Teague was a UNCA transfer.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Thank you! I cannot get over the number of people saying that Gonzaga should move to a P5 conference, as if it is solely their own choice. The sport of importance in P5 is football, with basketball being a definite but decidedly subordinate second sport. I do not see any P5 conference (including the Pac-x) bringing in a non-football school. So I guess what I hear people saying is that, if Gonzaga does not wish to participate in football, it has no business being of any importance at all in basketball.

Gonzaga would actually be a really good fit for the Big East except geography would make that an absolute nightmare for everyone. The Big East is primarily Catholic schools with no major football program.

Few has made the best of the situation, scheduling one of the tougher non-conference schedules around to offset the weakness of their conference. This year they were scheduled to face among the top teams in the ACC (UVA), Big 12 (Kansas, WVU and Baylor), Big 10 (Iowa) and a historically solid SEC team (Auburn). Some of those teams were not quite as good as expected and the Baylor game got cancelled. None of those games were at Gonzaga or even relatively close.

Yes, a smattering of tough non-conference games does not fully prepare you for the NCAA tournament like the twice-a-week grind of a tough conference, but I don't know if that is that huge of an issue.

Though I have no ties or loyalties to the school, I really enjoyed watching Gonzaga play. I like Few a lot and he seems to run a very clean program with good kids (if the biggest fault one can find with a program is that Timme stache rub then they are doing pretty well). They make me nervous as they are now competing with Duke for top players, but such is life.