Thirty Years Ago Today

[Kedsy]

But it also caused me to feel a bit melancholy as I couldn’t help but compare the current state of the program with what it was back then.

Please move forward from Duke/UNLV just a couple years and compare the “state of the program” from 1993 to 1998 vs. 2016 to 2021 and tell me which was better? While we had one Final Four then (plus an Elite Eight) compared to two Elite Eights in the latter period, they seem roughly equal to me. For overall performance (not just NCAAT), if anything the later period seems to have a little more Duke success.

[Edouble]

I miss the days when other college teams and their fanbases feared playing Duke. The Duke mystique is all but gone now. 😞

Oh well, at least it was tremendous fun while it lasted. 98% of non-Duke fans have ever experienced their school having that type of relentless near-dominance over three decades.

I must have missed the memo.

[roge054]

We lived in south Florida at the time. That fall I was traveling, by bus, with a group of Bull Gators, U of F boosters, to a Gator football game. I handed the driver a tape of Duke/UNLV.
I told him to pop it in the vcr after we were down the road a bit. Remember these are hard core football fans. When the game came on, there were numerous monitors throughout the bus,
someone yelled "what idiot thought we would want to watch a Duke basketball game". All heads turned to me. I said enjoy the ride, "the road goes on forever and the party never ends".

[SouthernDukie]

In my mind, this is the greatest single victory in Duke history. There have been others in National Championship games, as well as huge victories over UNC, Kentucky, etc. in the regular seasons, and some great victories in the ACCT. But no other game in my lifetime was looked at with so much trepidation ahead of time, and no other win was more astounding. Sure, 2.1 seconds v. UK was an answered prayer, but I'd argue it is the greatest play in Duke history, not the greatest game (even so, Hurley's 3 in this game would be in the top 5). But no other entire game was bigger, and no win was sweeter. Even the subsequent win over KU in the final for Duke's first natty ever didn't seem as big as the win over 35-0 UNLV (ending their 45 game win streak). That was a great coda, but the UNLV was the movement itself.

(Which leads me to Gonzaga. They seem to have the same level of consensus about winning it all this year as UNLV did in 1991. And they may well do it. But can an opponent take them down? Undefeated UK in 2015 was thought to be unbeatable, but Wisconsin played a magnificent game and beat them. [I always feel a tiny bit bad for Wisconsin - they slew the UK dragon, but then Grayson Allen and Tyus Jones stuck stake through their heart in the final.] Anyway, it will be interesting - will Gonzaga fall?)

I always love how Laettner calmly hits his FTs. The weight of the world is on his shoulders, and he drains them. Money then and for the rest of his Duke career.

9F

This is exactly how I feel as well. In my eyes and mind this was THE single most important victory in Duke history. Up until this game, Duke had been the bridesmaid and never the bride. Yes, it was a semi-final only, but it felt like the title game for me. Absolutely no one around me thought Duke had a chance. Not only that, but most folk around me weren't even rooting for Duke - which really blew my mind because they hadn't won anything and UNLV had just drubbed them the year previous.

And I must bow my head and admit, that at this point, I too was actually wondering whether Duke would EVER actually win the title. I had spent many years rooting for various teams in different sports (pro and college) and seemed to always have my teams come up short. But when Johnson was forced to pass to Hunt, and that shot went long, I lost it! Screamed like a little girl for I don't know how long. It was like the weight of the world had lifted off my chest. The Finals against Kansas were still a bit stressful, but deep down I knew after the UNLV game we were "destined". No feeling like it in the world.

The "Shot" was incredible the next year. Beating UM was incredibly satisfying. But in my mind the '91 semi-final victory against UNLV was the most important game in Duke history - and it's not even close.

[Steven43]

Please move forward from Duke/UNLV just a couple years and compare the “state of the program” from 1993 to 1998 vs. 2016 to 2021 and tell me which was better? While we had one Final Four then (plus an Elite Eight) compared to two Elite Eights in the latter period, they seem roughly equal to me. For overall performance (not just NCAAT), if anything the later period seems to have a little more Duke success.

You make a fair point, but I’m not strictly talking about NCAA Tournament results. Just honestly compare a 44-year-old, in his prime, young and hungry Coach K to a 74-year-old Coach K. That alone makes for a significant difference.

For that reason and others — some of which have to do with the dramatically changed landscape of college basketball over that time period — I just don’t think Duke Basketball has that same swagger, that same “We are the bully on the block. We’re going to kick your a## AND steal your lunch money and your girlfriend” vibe anymore.

[Kedsy]

You make a fair point, but I’m not strictly talking about NCAA Tournament results. Just honestly compare a 44-year-old, in his prime, young and hungry Coach K to a 74-year-old Coach K. That alone makes for a significant difference.

For that reason and others — some of which have to do with the dramatically changed landscape of college basketball over that time period — I just don’t think Duke Basketball has that same swagger, that same “We are the bully on the block. We’re going to kick your a## AND steal your lunch money and your girlfriend” vibe anymore.

Honestly, I don't think we had that swagger then, either (other than in 1992). Maybe from 1998 to 2006. Though also maybe 2018 and 2019, too. And hopefully next season.

And outside of NCAA tournament performance, Duke in 2016 to 2021 was better than Duke in 1993 to 1998 in almost every way:

Overall win/loss record
93 to 98: 139-58 (.709)
16 to 21: 152-51 (.749)

ACC win/loss record
93 to 98: 59-37 (.614)
16 to 21: 73-37 (.664)

ACC tournament w/l record
93 to 98: 4-6 (.400)
16 to 21: 11-2 (.846)

ACC tournament titles
93 to 98: none
16 to 21: 2

ACC regular season titles
93 to 98: 3
16 to 21: none

AP final rank
93 to 98: 10, 6, unranked, unranked, 8, 3
16 to 21: 19, 7, 9, 1, 11, unranked

Frankly, outside of NCAA tournament performance, Duke in 2010 to 2015 was comparable or better in almost every metric than Duke in 1987 to 1992, too (and note, I chose the six-year periods of 87 to 92 and 10 to 15 because it's the same length and immediately before the six-year periods compared above):

Overall win/loss record
87 to 92: 175-42 (.806)
10 to 15: 185-36 (.837)

ACC win/loss record
87 to 92: 61-25 (.709)
10 to 15: 81-21 (.794)

ACC tournament w/l record
87 to 92: 10-4 (.714)
10 to 15: 10-4 (.714)

ACC tournament titles
87 to 92: 2
10 to 15: 2

ACC regular season titles
87 to 92: 3
10 to 15: 1

AP final rank
87 to 92: 17, 5, 9, 15, 6, 1
10 to 15: 3, 3, 8, 6, 8, 4

[kako]

You make a fair point, but I’m not strictly talking about NCAA Tournament results. Just honestly compare a 44-year-old, in his prime, young and hungry Coach K to a 74-year-old Coach K. That alone makes for a significant difference.

For that reason and others — some of which have to do with the dramatically changed landscape of college basketball over that time period — I just don’t think Duke Basketball has that same swagger, that same “We are the bully on the block. We’re going to kick your a## AND steal your lunch money and your girlfriend” vibe anymore.

The euphoria of winning 2 nattys and going to 7 of 9 FFs wasn't far behind. That will be hard to ever duplicate again. But nothing stays constant. There have been 3 more national championships, 1000+ wins under K, umpteen ACC tourney titles, #1 seeds, a truckload of time spent at #1 in the rankings, etc. And after '92, Duke became the #1 target in NCAAMB. With the expansion of games on TV and streaming, some of the Duke "mystique" being on TV more times than Leave It To Beaver has worn off (side note: Calhoun sucks). Performance-wise, the rest of NCAAMB has improved as well (the overseas interest has both added players and created a bigger pile of money). Oh, and by the way, during '89-92 we had one of the 5 greatest players of all time in NCAAMB (conservatively) and the greatest PG of the modern CBB era (you can't talk me out of this one), and a guy named Grant Hill. All stayed for 4 years. In the current universe, that's not happening again. So these are some of the changes that you are perhaps describing. Nothing could have stopped that change, so no sense in living in the past. It was great while it happened.

But that was then and this is now. I look back and marvel at the great fortune of being a Duke alum and fan. Yes, 2020-21 was a pretty lousy year from Duke's high standards. They were not a team that people feared last year. Still, there have still been times we are that team you desire. 1999, 2001, 2002, 2010, 2015 were all great years. And I think we were that team you describe with Zion, Barrett and company, even though we lost. Zion wasn't a bully, he didn't steal anything, except he did kick your azz from here to Walla Walla. People feared him. People may disparage 1AD, but in order to find that player again, that's what needs to still happen. I am hoping this year lights a fire under K and staff, and that they come out looking to restore order again. And maybe Banchero or Baldwin or ? is that guy.

9F

[mkirsh]

You make a fair point, but I’m not strictly talking about NCAA Tournament results. Just honestly compare a 44-year-old, in his prime, young and hungry Coach K to a 74-year-old Coach K. That alone makes for a significant difference.

For that reason and others — some of which have to do with the dramatically changed landscape of college basketball over that time period — I just don’t think Duke Basketball has that same swagger, that same “We are the bully on the block. We’re going to kick your a## AND steal your lunch money and your girlfriend” vibe anymore.

My recollection of the pre-1991 era was that UNC was the big dog in the ACC with all the swagger and mystique, and that Duke was the underdog upstart trying to reach UNC's level, getting to final fours but not winning a title. It wasn't until after 92 and all the exposure Duke (and particularly Laettner, and particularly the "stomp") got that pushed Duke into the upper tier, "bully on the block" as you say, echelon of college hoops. Where Duke has remained for decades. Even in "down" years Duke is still the marquee game on every other team's schedule.

[mkirsh]

Duke played a crazy hard schedule that year, which I think really helped prepare the team for its tournament run. In addition to the double-round-robin ACC regular season schedule, Duke also played games against:

Arkansas -- That Arkansas team had Lee Mayberry, Todd Day, Oliver Miller, and Isaiah Morris, all of whom had NBA careers. They spent most of the season as the #2 team in the country and lost a close game to #1 UNLV in February of 1991. Duke lost to Arkansas in the semifinals of the Preseason NIT in New York in November of 1990.

Georgetown -- A top 10 team at the time, with future NBA stars Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutombo. Duke lost to them in early December of 1990 in the ACC-Big East Challenge at the Capital Centre in Landover, MD.

Michigan -- They were unranked and it wasn't a great Michigan team, but still...it's Michigan. They were two seasons removed from a national championship and their lineup included seven-footer Eric Riley, who went on to play in the NBA. Duke beat them in Cameron in December of 1990.

Oklahoma -- Ranked #11 at the time, the Sooners featured future NBA players Jeff Webster and Brent Price, the younger brother of former Georgia Tech star Mark Price. Oklahoma was also riding a 51-game home win streak, which Duke broke when it beat them on their home floor in late December of 1990.

LSU -- Ranked #19 at the time, that LSU team featured future NBA star Shaquille O'Neal. But Christian Laettner outplayed O'Neal, and Duke beat them relatively easily in Cameron in February of 1991.

Arizona -- Ranked #9 at the time, Arizona featured six future NBA players. Duke went into Tucson in late February of 1991 and lost in double overtime. The officiating by the PAC-10 crew was so bad that the conference brass later apologized. Seriously.

By the time the NCAA Tournament rolled around, that Duke team was very battle-tested.

This post is great example of how hard it is to sustain excellence like Duke has. Many of the teams you site - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Georgetown, Arizona - were perennial top 10 teams in the 80s/early 90s, and now are all middle of the pack teams in their respective conferences (at best). Also a reminder of how good we have had it under K, and a warning for what a post K world might look like (covered in another thread - don't want to derail us into Brad Stevens would-he-or-wouldn't-he land).

[mattyoung18]

Post Coach K might look like this year's results.K is a once in a lifetime kind of coach.Close to what Ucla has went thru with their success with Wooden.

[Steven43]

The euphoria of winning 2 nattys and going to 7 of 9 FFs wasn't far behind. That will be hard to ever duplicate again. But nothing stays constant. There have been 3 more national championships, 1000+ wins under K, umpteen ACC tourney titles, #1 seeds, a truckload of time spent at #1 in the rankings, etc. And after '92, Duke became the #1 target in NCAAMB. With the expansion of games on TV and streaming, some of the Duke "mystique" being on TV more times than Leave It To Beaver has worn off (side note: Calhoun sucks). Performance-wise, the rest of NCAAMB has improved as well (the overseas interest has both added players and created a bigger pile of money). Oh, and by the way, during '89-92 we had one of the 5 greatest players of all time in NCAAMB (conservatively) and the greatest PG of the modern CBB era (you can't talk me out of this one), and a guy named Grant Hill. All stayed for 4 years. In the current universe, that's not happening again. So these are some of the changes that you are perhaps describing. Nothing could have stopped that change, so no sense in living in the past. It was great while it happened.

Yep, you nailed it. That is almost exactly what I was trying to say and describe. Well, that and Coach K is 30 years older now and in his mid-70s. Nobody can convince me that a 74-year-old K can bring to the table on a 24/7/365 basis what a 44-year-old K did.

As brilliant as K is and as great of a coach as he has been — quite possibly the greatest college basketball coach of all time — I think the program would benefit from a younger man with a fresher perspective at the helm. And not just any younger man, but one who has very recently shown he can coach at a high level in either college or the NBA, which probably rules out Wojo, Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, Hurley, Capel, and all of the current assistants.

I fear Duke is now in a similar holding pattern to the last years of Bob Knight at Indiana and Dean Smith at UNC. And yet Knight was 59 when he was fired and Smith was 66 when he retired. Coach K will be 75 next season. I don’t want this to turn into a Bear Bryant or Joe Paterno situation where an old, formerly great coach held on too long.

[Kedsy]

Post Coach K might look like this year's results.K is a once in a lifetime kind of coach.Close to what Ucla has went thru with their success with Wooden.

Or it might look like UNC, post-Dean (without the cheating). You never know.

[kako]

Yep, you nailed it. That is almost exactly what I was trying to say and describe. Well, that and Coach K is 30 years older now and in his mid-70s. Nobody can convince me that a 74-year-old K can bring to the table on a 24/7/365 basis what a 44-year-old K did.

As brilliant as K is and as great of a coach as he has been — quite possibly the greatest college basketball coach of all time — I think the program would benefit from a younger man with a fresher perspective at the helm. And not just any younger man, but one who has very recently shown he can coach at a high level in either college or the NBA, which probably rules out Wojo, Collins, Dawkins, Amaker, Hurley, Capel, and all of the current assistants.

I fear Duke is now in a similar holding pattern to the last years of Bob Knight at Indiana and Dean Smith at UNC. And yet Knight was 59 when he was fired and Smith was 66 when he retired. Coach K will be 75 next season. I don’t want this to turn into a Bear Bryant or Joe Paterno situation where an old, formerly great coach held on too long.

Well, we disagree. I want to ride the K train as long as it's on the tracks. Knight's reign (of terror?) at Indiana is its own beast. Paterno also left due to non-football performance atrocities. But Dean (and it hurts me to say this) retired just after making a FF, so one couldn't make the argument that they were just waiting for him to retire. I say with confidence that there will never be another K for Duke. At least not in my lifetime. No one will live up to the standard. So until his teams start routinely churning out mediocre seasons (say, like Denny Crum), I'm with K. Probably even beyond that. I believe this season was an anomaly. I believe K and Duke, especially if they get Keels, will be back and contending for the national championship next year.

And oh, do you think Duke will force K out of his job? The AD or President that does that won't have his job much longer. Say what you want about K, but there's little chance his program cheats, hires strippers, covers up murders, ignores sexual misconduct, etc. So he's not getting fired for other reasons. The only way he is going out is on his own terms. When he no longer has the passion, I'm sure he will hang it up. And I will mourn that day.

9F

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, we disagree. I want to ride the K train as long as it's on the tracks. Knight's reign (of terror?) at Indiana is its own beast. Paterno also left due to non-football performance atrocities. But Dean (and it hurts me to say this) retired just after making a FF, so one couldn't make the argument that they were just waiting for him to retire. I say with confidence that there will never be another K for Duke. At least not in my lifetime. No one will live up to the standard. So until his teams start routinely churning out mediocre seasons (say, like Denny Crum), I'm with K. Probably even beyond that. I believe this season was an anomaly. I believe K and Duke, especially if they get Keels, will be back and contending for the national championship next year.

And oh, do you think Duke will force K out of his job? The AD or President that does that won't have his job much longer. Say what you want about K, but there's little chance his program cheats, hires strippers, covers up murders, ignores sexual misconduct, etc. So he's not getting fired for other reasons. The only way he is going out is on his own terms. When he no longer has the passion, I'm sure he will hang it up. And I will mourn that day.

9F

Additionally, while 1991 K was hungry and fired up, our current K has the gravitas of five natty rings, a few gold medals, and a slew of banners. No, we aren't scrappy upstarts, but we are now legit basketball royalty.

Yes, we would all like to see some more fire from our squad, but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if next year's team doesn't come out on a mission - regardless of who is on the team.

The Duke mystique has changed over the years. Perhaps it ebbed a bit this last year, but as we all know, there Are Reasons for that. UNC has dipped substantially the last two years. If we lay the wood to them three times next year, order will be restored in our state. If we have fans in Cameron and go on some patented double digits runs punctuated by fast break dunks and scorching threes, order will be restored in the ACC. And when we reach the Final Four next year, well...

[Steven43]

And oh, do you think Duke will force K out of his job? The AD or President that does that won't have his job much longer. Say what you want about K, but there's little chance his program cheats, hires strippers, covers up murders, ignores sexual misconduct, etc. So he's not getting fired for other reasons. The only way he is going out is on his own terms. When he no longer has the passion, I'm sure he will hang it up. And I will mourn that day.

I didn’t say anything about anyone forcing K out. Whether or not the new AD will try to nudge him out behind the scenes, who knows? Either way it’s not my business.

I simply think that every older coach, even the legendary Coach K, reaches a point to where a fantastic, younger, more energetic, innovative, hungrier coach would bring more to the table. That’s just the way it works. It’s the law of the jungle whether we like it or not.

Has it reached that point with K? Maybe it has, maybe it hasn’t. All I know is the list of extremely effective, 75-year-old coaches at the helm of one of the elite basketball programs is, well, virtually nonexistent.

And yes, I think Syracuse would also benefit from a great, young coach taking over for the soon-to-be-77 Jim Boeheim — though he does still seem to be pretty good. Regardless, I think they would be better off going in a new direction.

[kako]

I didn’t say anything about anyone forcing K out. Whether or not the new AD will try to nudge him out behind the scenes, who knows? Either way it’s not my business.

I simply think that every older coach, even the legendary Coach K, reaches a point to where a fantastic, younger, more energetic, innovative, hungrier coach would bring more to the table. That’s just the way it works. It’s the law of the jungle whether we like it or not.

Has it reached that point with K? Maybe it has, maybe it hasn’t. All I know is the list of extremely effective, 75-year-old coaches at the helm of one of the elite basketball programs is, well, virtually nonexistent.

And yes, I think Syracuse would also benefit from a great, young coach taking over for the soon-to-be-77 Jim Boeheim — though he does still seem to be pretty good. Regardless, I think they would be better off going in a new direction.

So do you have a guaranteed "fantastic, younger, more energetic, innovative, hungrier coach"? If not, then there's no reason to push K out. If you are advocating Duke goes through a coaching carousel in order to find one, with many seasons of disappointment, I'm also going to advocate sticking with K.

This is sports, so it's all about scoreboard. When the scoreboard no longer favors K (or K no longer feels like scoring), then it will be time. I don't believe age is a direct factor on the scoreboard. If that's all you got, then I think you need more game.

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9F

[Steven43]

So do you have a guaranteed "fantastic, younger, more energetic, innovative, hungrier coach"? If not, then there's no reason to push K out. If you are advocating Duke goes through a coaching carousel in order to find one, with many seasons of disappointment, I'm also going to advocate sticking with K.

This is sports, so it's all about scoreboard. When the scoreboard no longer favors K (or K no longer feels like scoring), then it will be time. I don't believe age is a direct factor on the scoreboard. If that's all you got, then I think you need more game.

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9F

Haha, “I have spoken”. That’s pretty funny. 😊

That being said, age is unquestionably a factor in the overall effectiveness of every single coach past their late 60’s or so. Ask any high-level coach in their late 60’s or early-to-mid 70’s how they feel today compared to how they felt when they were in their 40’s and you’ll have your answer.

I am a huge fan of Coach K — both on the court and off. But he has not magically found the Fountain of Youth, even if his hair says otherwise. Only Father Time and Gonzaga are undefeated.

[gep]

So I was thinking... can a business model work here? (I'm not any where near even a business novice, so may not even be worth the 2 cents.) That is, Coach K is "elevated" to Chairman of the Board, with someone like Scheyer as President/CEO of Duke Basketball (head coach). So Coach K is still there for big-picture, strategic discussions and most importantly, continued mentoring (major advisor). But Scheyer will have the day-to-day responsibilities. Too much "looking over my shoulder" for Scheyer (or whoever)?

[Boswell]

Thank you, Tom, for bringing back a great memory! I was at that game as well. I couldn’t agree with you more that Bobby Hurley’s shot was the most consequential shot in Duke basketball history.

[Steven43]

Thank you, Tom, for bringing back a great memory! I was at that game as well. I couldn’t agree with you more that Bobby Hurley’s shot was the most consequential shot in Duke basketball history.

It’s still hard to believe that Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, and Christian Laettner all played together at Duke. What a magical time that was.