Fraternities "disaffiliating" from Duke

[dudog84]

Is this a big thing? I'm a dinosaur (I was a lizard at Duke, but I liked their parties) and have very little knowledge of what campus life has become over the last 35+ years. Frat life was deeply integrated on campus in my time.

I'm sure there are many frat alums here. Has your fraternity left? What do you think? Is this a major shift, or has it been a coming for a long time and is really just "official" now?

https://www.dukechronicle.com/articl...r-recruit-rush

[BLPOG]

Is this a major shift, or has it been a coming for a long time and is really just "official" now?

Not a matter of just being "official" now, but the answer to the other two parts of your question is "yes" - they aren't mutually exclusive. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. Actually, more like the hay bale.

I could talk about this subject for days, in part because I've closely observed the (inevitable, predictable) progression over the years. Honestly though, I just don't want to. It's too depressing and would require too much effort for no gain.

What I will say is that the university has perpetuated a policy of trying to squash Greek life, and to a lesser extent, SLGs, for decades. That would be bothersome enough to someone who was involved, but the aggravating factor is that they do so in a totally disingenuous manner. The idea of such dishonest people shaping life at Duke rankles me to no end. I could take BS quotes from that article and match them practically word for word with others from emails and old Chronicle articles from my time as a student (or earlier, I'm sure) with the same BS double-speak. They run the same play every few years and this time things hit the breaking point.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Is this a big thing? I'm a dinosaur (I was a lizard at Duke, but I liked their parties) and have very little knowledge of what campus life has become over the last 35+ years. Frat life was deeply integrated on campus in my time.

I'm sure there are many frat alums here. Has your fraternity left? What do you think? Is this a major shift, or has it been a coming for a long time and is really just "official" now?

https://www.dukechronicle.com/articl...r-recruit-rush

Not a matter of just being "official" now, but the answer to the other two parts of your question is "yes" - they aren't mutually exclusive. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. Actually, more like the hay bale.

I could talk about this subject for days, in part because I've closely observed the (inevitable, predictable) progression over the years. Honestly though, I just don't want to. It's too depressing and would require too much effort for no gain.

What I will say is that the university has perpetuated a policy of trying to squash Greek life, and to a lesser extent, SLGs, for decades. That would be bothersome enough to someone who was involved, but the aggravating factor is that they do so in a totally disingenuous manner. The idea of such dishonest people shaping life at Duke rankles me to no end. I could take BS quotes from that article and match them practically word for word with others from emails and old Chronicle articles from my time as a student (or earlier, I'm sure) with the same BS double-speak. They run the same play every few years and this time things hit the breaking point.

It started with Nan. (I hate that woman.) Nanerl did everything in her power to quash frats. Mine, Phi Kappa Psi, was put on double secret probation and kicked off campus in the late 90's. We, (alumni) made overtures over the last 15+ years to get back to no avail. Did I mention that I hate that woman?

[Bluedog]

There's been a movement on several prestigious campuses to eliminate fraternities and sororities, with the theory that they perpetuate racism and sexism. I live by Northwestern and the same thing has been occurring. So, it's not Duke-specific necessarily, but certainly has come to a head at Duke this year. Duke sororities recently indicated they will no longer hold mixers with a single fraternity because it's 1.) exclusive, and 2.) assumes a certain sexual orientation.

Disclosure: Did not join a fraternity at Duke. But know many (great, kind) people who did. Know many (great kind) people who did not. Also know "not kind" people in both buckets. I think generalizations, in general, are dangerous.

[BLPOG]

There's been a movement on several prestigious campuses to eliminate fraternities and sororities, with the theory that they perpetuate racism and sexism. I live by Northwestern and the same thing has been occurring. So, it's not Duke-specific necessarily, but certainly has come to a head at Duke this year. Duke sororities recently indicated they will no longer hold mixers with a single fraternity because it's 1.) exclusive, and 2.) assumes a certain sexual orientation.

Disclosure: Did not join a fraternity at Duke. But know many (great, kind) people who did. Know many (great kind) people who did not. Also know "not kind" people in both buckets. I think generalizations, in general, are dangerous.

Yes, I am familiar with that "theory", perpetuated by people who don't know a damn thing about fraternity life. I have found that they never take the time to actually learn anything from anyone involved.

They could take an afternoon, for instance, to read some of the minutes and correspondence of Duke chapters from the 1960s, stored in the university archives, which relate to the admission of black students. I've done so myself and was deeply moved. They could, as I have, talk to members of fraternities from that era, and learn that some chapters' efforts to admit minority students - and their fights with national organizations - led them to return their charter. They could learn how, for so many people for so many years, fraternity life lead people to seek personal self-improvement and improvement for the fraternity, striving to do better than their forbears (one of the fruits of which is long-since eliminating prejudicial membership policies among traditional Greek-letter fraternities). They could actually meet some active fraternity members and find that they come in all sorts of varieties.

The people loudly complaining about fraternities never make a peep about groups that are truly exclusionary (which I'm not even taking a stance on, just noting) and who actually *do* actively maintain prejudices - they get a free pass. There are racially/ethnically-affiliated groups at Duke that say and do *terrible* things to potential recruits, sometimes to the point of trying to make them disassociate from people of another race (yes, I'm serious), but you won't ever hear about it from the administration, because it's politically inconvenient. The reason for all of that is simple: the real motivation of the anti-fraternity crowd is the inclination toward attacking their perceived outgroup.

[Acymetric]

Yes, I am familiar with that "theory", perpetuated by people who don't know a damn thing about fraternity life. I have found that they never take the time to actually learn anything from anyone involved.

They could take an afternoon, for instance, to read some of the minutes and correspondence of Duke chapters from the 1960s, stored in the university archives, which relate to the admission of black students. I've done so myself and was deeply moved. They could, as I have, talk to members of fraternities from that era, and learn that some chapters' efforts to admit minority students - and their fights with national organizations - led them to return their charter. They could learn how, for so many people for so many years, fraternity life lead people to seek personal self-improvement and improvement for the fraternity, striving to do better than their forbears (one of the fruits of which is long-since eliminating prejudicial membership policies among traditional Greek-letter fraternities). They could actually meet some active fraternity members and find that they come in all sorts of varieties.

The activities of a fraternity in 1960 have very little bearing on their activities in 2021. Not all fraternities are bad. Some definitely are. Some, on the other hand, are very good. You appear to be very familiar with Greek life half a century ago but it isn't clear you are up to speed on the modern day. To your last sentence...you think the people arguing against you have literally never known anyone involved in Greek life? Some of my best friends in college were Greek, and their stories/experiences absolutely inform my opinion.

[cato]

It started with Nan. (I hate that woman.) Nanerl did everything in her power to quash frats. Mine, Phi Kappa Psi, was put on double secret probation and kicked off campus in the late 90's. We, (alumni) made overtures over the last 15+ years to get back to no avail. Did I mention that I hate that woman?

Nan was very effective as the President at Duke. You say you hate her. Have you reached out to her? I did when I was an undergrad and she responded.

[dudog84]

Truly sorry if I touched a nerve, it was not my intention. I found the OP article linked inside an article from the 'End of Duke's season' thread, where the poster was facetiously blaming the end on frat week. I was surprised given my long ago on-campus experience, and even searched "fraternities" to see if it had been discussed on the board. Perhaps I'm naive, I see now it's potential for inflamed opinions.

[BLPOG]

Not all fraternities are bad. Some definitely are. Some, on the other hand, are very good. You appear to be very familiar with Greek life half a century ago but it isn't clear you are up to speed on the modern day. To your last sentence...you think the people arguing against you have literally never known anyone involved in Greek life? Some of my best friends in college were Greek, and their stories/experiences absolutely inform my opinion.

I was still at Duke 10 years ago and I've stayed in touch with active members at Duke. I'm pretty well up to speed on the last 20 years. Not sure how you took my comments about the 60s to imply a lack of familiarity with the here and now.

And I'm not saying all of these folks have literally never encountered someone in Greek life - that's silly - I'm saying that for whatever encounters they've had, they've utterly failed in learning. They have their preconceived notions and stick with them. It's a about a narrative, and experience or evidence or trends to the contrary are irrelevant. A lot of them do have very little practical exposure, though, which makes it easier to maintain a false belief structure.

Edit to add:

The activities of a fraternity in 1960 have very little bearing on their activities in 2021.

Depends on the fraternity

[throatybeard]

Few things have convinced me more of the opposite than all the Keohane hatred. The haters made me a fan.

[acdevil]

I found her to be quite disingenuous in my dealings with her, but to each their own.

[budwom]

It started with Nan. (I hate that woman.) Nanerl did everything in her power to quash frats. Mine, Phi Kappa Psi, was put on double secret probation and kicked off campus in the late 90's. We, (alumni) made overtures over the last 15+ years to get back to no avail. Did I mention that I hate that woman?

this is what probably cost you the AD job some years ago, Oz!

[bundabergdevil]

Nan was very effective as the President at Duke. You say you hate her. Have you reached out to her? I did when I was an undergrad and she responded.

A very big pile of money was raised under her watch, that’s for sure.

[throatybeard]

A very big pile of money was raised under her watch, that’s for sure.

Which is indeed a chancellor/president's job numero uno.

[dudog84]

A very big pile of money was raised under her watch, that’s for sure.

Not sure how much she was responsible for that. The stock market tripled under her watch, and really did all of that in the first 6 years of her tenure. A university president shouldn't blow the opportunity, but it's more a function of the economy.

[bundabergdevil]

Not sure how much she was responsible for that. The stock market tripled under her watch, and really did all of that in the first 6 years of her tenure. A university president shouldn't blow the opportunity, but it's more a function of the economy.

Hey man, every US president in my lifetime has taken credit and assigned blame for the stock market, why not university presidents!

She did out perform peers though. I believe the campaign for Duke (or whatever it was called) was one of the most successful in history among any university...or was at the time. I’d need to verify that but seem to recall that coming out of the university at some point.

[wilson]

I was in a fraternity at Duke (graduated '04). I have really mixed feelings about it...I had a wonderful time as part of the group and I truly cherish my handful of ongoing close friendships from my fraternity. On the other hand, in retrospect I'm pretty embarrassed at my particular group's traditions and politics, and I regret some of the ways in which I as a Greek undergrad helped contribute to social division, self-segregation, and generally toxic behaviors. I recently voluntarily surrendered my membership in my fraternal organization, I'm not at all surprised that things are moving in this direction (as others have pointed out, it's been afoot at Duke and elsewhere for like a quarter century now), and I believe this will be on balance a positive movement for campus life among undergraduates.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

this is what probably cost you the AD job some years ago, Oz!

No, Joe Aleva was hired in 1998 and checking the records, Phi Psi was kicked off in 2001. https://today.duke.edu/2001/02/phipsi202.html so I don't think Nan had anything to do with it.

[richardjackson199]

It started with Nan. (I hate that woman.) Nanerl did everything in her power to quash frats. Mine, Phi Kappa Psi, was put on double secret probation and kicked off campus in the late 90's. We, (alumni) made overtures over the last 15+ years to get back to no avail. Did I mention that I hate that woman?

No question you know more about this than me. I remember that a Phi Kappa Psi Duke student died of aspiration pneumonia from binge drinking prior to this. It was reportedly not from a fraternity event, but my uneducated guess is that kind of thing gets administrators thinking liability. Whether that is fair or unfair is debatable.

I didn't know the student, but it was very sad and shook the campus. I remember the event:

https://www.wral.com/news/local/stor...ive%20drinking.

[sagegrouse]

I was in a fraternity at Duke (graduated '04). I have really mixed feelings about it...I had a wonderful time as part of the group and I truly cherish my handful of ongoing close friendships from my fraternity. On the other hand, in retrospect I'm pretty embarrassed at my particular group's traditions and politics, and I regret some of the ways in which I as a Greek undergrad helped contribute to social division, self-segregation, and generally toxic behaviors. I recently voluntarily surrendered my membership in my fraternal organization, I'm not at all surprised that things are moving in this direction (as others have pointed out, it's been afoot at Duke and elsewhere for like a quarter century now), and I believe this will be on balance a positive movement for campus life among undergraduates.

I think this thread could rapidly spin out of control, but I will restrain my remarks. When I came to Duke, the fraternities offered by far the best West Campus living arrangements. The independent dorms barely had commons rooms and little in the way of structured social life. I have fond memories of most the brothers from that day and keep in touch with a number of them. We have a list-serve and have even had the occasional multi-class reunion.

The problem with fraternities and "selective living groups" at a school like Duke -- fairly small school, mostly on-campus housing -- is that each of these groups is exclusionary, in that one must be selected. Then what of the people who are "not selected?" Are they second-class citizens? And fraternities, of course, compete to be the best -- and tend to dislike or resent other houses. I believe there are better models available -- residential college systems, for example -- which I have seen work close-up. It's hard to do at Duke with the two campuses and the rather archaic Gothic quad arrangement on the "preferred" campus. But I understand the problems when one-half of students are in the exclusionary groups and the other half are not. It tends to promote hierarchies and is far less democratic.