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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    No one said it was. I laid out the case that Duke's all-time status rests disproportionately on one coach more than any of the others, except UCLA/Wooden. Even there, they won an NCAAT without him.

    BTW, you still haven't given us any examples of anyone doing what you claim it's a "no brainer" for Brad Stevens to do.
    I donít feel the need to give any examples, as that doesnít seem particularly relevant. I didnít base on precedent my reasons why I think the Duke job is as good or better than any NBA job.

    I simply made my case for why the job of head coach of Duke Basketball is extremely desirable and I stand by it 100%. And Iím confident that Brad Stevens or Quin Snyder or some other NBA coach might very well end up agreeing with me. We shall see.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    As long as St Michael is here, we're 1ish in momentary rankings.


    But if waggity-white times still count, Duke MBB, considered long term, is not #1, and staying where we are will be heavily contested and require a homerun hire. All the other five schools in this discussion have an advantage Duke most decidedly does not, which is a big state school alumni base much of which lives relatively close to campus.

    Duke is not quite as important as Duke people think Duke is.
    I enjoy having you post, and I salute your perspective as a historian. "Who's the top college program?" That's the question. For the past thirty years it's been Duke, I would argue, and it's perception-based, but not based on ancient data like 1924 Ku Klux Klan UNC team, known as the White Shadows. But the widespread international recognition is more recent based on K's FIBA success.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    The top college coaches are in enviable positions. High income, deities on their campus who really (if they behave sensibly) don't have bosses in the conventional sense. The tenure of these top few extend for decades. You know them -- K, Roy, Self, Calipari, Boeheim, (soon to be) Tony Bennett, and Jay Wright. It's not clear there are more than these -- Mark Few maybe, but West Coast Conference is not a big player and Spokane is a long way away from anywhere.

    The NBA top coaches also have good deals, but there are many fewer in that top echelon. Part of the problem is the Pat Riley Axiom: "After a few years, the players quit listening to you, and it's time to move on." That's an NBA, not a college, problem. Then there is the "bosses problem" -- GM, team president, owners change from time to time and the new guy or gal may want to make changes. Compare with college -- a new AD or chancellor at KU is not gonna fire Bill Self. In the past 75 years in the NBA, there are only five coaches who have won more than two championships: Phil Jackson, Auerbach, Popovich, Riley and George Mikan's coach John Kundla (yep, I had to look him up). It is really hard to become an established NBA coach -- less so if you go to the right college position.

    Now, would I personally leave a relatively secure position at an NBA franchise to return to college. Probably not, but the top college coaching gigs are really good jobs.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'And I strongly disagree with the notion that Duke is a "4ish" program. Duke is the best known amateur team in the entire world -- thanks to its distinctive branding (there is, despite what Odom says, an advantage in not being named for a state) and chiefly to Coach K as the highly successful Team USA coach'
    What about Steve Kerr?

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    What about Steve Kerr?
    You're right. Steve Kerr has three championships. The five I listed had five or more, and I thought no one else had more than two. Kerr does and may get many more.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Butler to 2 championship games was lightning in a bottle. Donovan caught the 2 bolt as well. Neither prove you to be a great long term coach.
    I guess you're referring to my post about Donovan. Make no mistake, Billy Donovan was a great college coach. (Not to mention, though I am, that there is a huge difference between getting to the game and winning it. Sheesh.)

    He took over a program that had nowhere near the basketball cachet that Duke had. He got them to a national championship game in his 4th year (it took K 6). He got them a national championship in his 10th year (it took K 11). He got to 500 wins younger than any coach other than Bobby Knight.

    If he hadn't gone to the NBA, he may have approached K status. There is no doubt he was a great college coach.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    I don't think you need three NBA titles to be an "established NBA coach."

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Whoís gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    How does it compare to winning those back to back finals?
    Boom. Stevie Four Three I love your support of Stevens and maybe youíd be right, but in a bet between someone with zero championships and K, Iíll take K.
    Carolina delenda est

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Admittedly weak examples, but you have Mullin going to St. John's (I think he was in the NBA front office) and Ewing going to Georgetown (he had been an NBA assistant for a while). And Larry Brown going to SMU, but he was between jobs at the time so it's not like he gave something up. And he's Larry Brown.

    I think Quin is most likely to be a wild card because the job we are talking about is at his alma mater, and he also has extensive college coaching experience, both as an assistant at the alma mater and as a college head coach. That being said, I'm not holding my breath.
    If we have any hope of Quin coming back home, we better hope K coaches quite a few more years. If the job were open today and Quin asked K what he thought about his fit for the job, Iíd imagine K would tell him to keep coaching Donovan Mitchell and his current team for the time being and let everything else take care of itself. Heck, I bet K would love to switch places with Quin for a bit to get to coach that team in todays NBA.
    Carolina delenda est

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I fundamentally disagree that coaching in the NBA is more desirable and more elite than being a virtual god on a college campus as the head of one of the Blue Blood programs.

    That would be an easy decision for me if I were fortunate enough to have that choice.
    But here's the thing and I'll try and say this clearly. You don't become a virtual god at blue blood just by getting the job. You become a virtual god by winning at a record setting level and that makes the job awesome. In other words, Coach K's job at Duke is more desirable to him than going to the NBA because of the equity he's built up by winning for 35 years. For him, going to the NBA would be a step down because he makes NBA money and he has more control and job security and competitive advantage than he would as a first year NBA coach who would be below the owner and any superstars players on the roster.

    Take Indiana for example. Bob Knight was a virtual god in Bloomington able to get away with behavior that would have gotten a lot of people fired. Of course when he started not going winning the big Ten and flaming out in the NCAAs some of the that sheen wore off and he got fired. And even though Indiana when Knight left had great winning tradition, a rich recruiting base, lots of fans, etc, Tom Crean, Mike Davis, Archie Miller they didn't manage to get to virtual god status.

    Finally, you do not want to be the guy that succeeds one of these virtual gods. You want to be the guy that follows the virtual god's successor.

    In college sports, obviously, certain institutions have more resources than others. But it seems to me it's the really gifted coaches that maximize that institutional potential. For example, Florida has a lot of potential in football. But boy, it seemed like Steve Spurrier and Urban Meyer did a much better job of unlocking that potential than Ron Zook and Will Muschamp.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Indiana goes down in the first round to Rutgers. Archie is in trouble ...

    Not happy times around the Miller dinner tables ...

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Winston’Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    Indiana goes down in the first round to Rutgers. Archie is in trouble ...

    Not happy times around the Miller dinner tables ...
    Archie Miller out at IU.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    Archie Miller out at IU.
    They owe him a cool 10 mil.
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Worth noting that Kevin Ollie, Rick Pitino, Bill Self, Billy Donovan, Gary Williams, and Tubby Smith are all championship winning coaches. Who knows what other scrubs made the championship game but didn't end up winning. Making the final is a heck of a feat, but it isn't quite​ the indicator of surefire elite coaching that you're implying.
    not sure rick pitino and bill self really fit with the others there. both have had much success over relatively long periods of time. pitino has taken multiple schools to final fours, and heck, has the iona gaels on the rise. I don't really care for him, but pretending he's far closer to roy level than kevin ollie level.

    Paul Hewitt, anyone?
    basketball is back, baby!

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    pitino has taken multiple schools to final fours, and heck, has the iona gaels on the rise.
    Iona? Maybe one day he can work his way up to NC State.

    A movie is not about what it's about; it's about how it's about it.
    ---Roger Ebert


    Some questions cannot be answered
    Whoís gonna bury who
    We need a love like Johnny, Johnny and June
    ---Over the Rhine

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Iona? Maybe one day he can work his way up to NC State.
    I got a lot of street cred this weekend from my elementary school aged kids with the story of "Hi. I'm Jim Valvano. Iona College" with the reply "you're too young to own a college."

    #DadJokes

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Iona? Maybe one day he can work his way up to NC State.
    Nah; Pack will hire Archie now.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC
    I assume Indiana has already called Brad Stevens. I wonder if his agent returned that call or not.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    I assume Indiana has already called Brad Stevens. I wonder if his agent returned that call or not.
    Once he finished laughing. I'd be extremely surprised if Stevens were to go to Indiana, or even seriously consider it. It's just not a prestigious job these days.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    Archie Miller out at IU.
    Will brother Sean be able to hold on at AZ?

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by throatybeard View Post
    Iona? Maybe one day he can work his way up to NC State.
    hah. it's more on my radar since it's my mom's alma mater (and fortunately, I get a lot less basketball jaw from her, than my Lehigh alum dad...)
    basketball is back, baby!

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