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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    And what has happened to our T's?!?!?

    Cam New'un
    What a cute ki'un
    Say it how it is wri'un.


    I think some people are doing it on purpose now, b/c what? They think it's cool to sound stupid?
    I sound stupid but I have never been all that fired up about it.

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    And what has happened to our T's?!?!?

    Cam New'un
    What a cute ki'un
    Say it how it is wri'un.


    I think some people are doing it on purpose now, b/c what? They think it's cool to sound stupid?
    I grew up in the NJ suburbs of NY and have been told that this is part of our regional dialect. It requires a very significant conscious effort for me to pronounce those t's - in the flow of normal conversation I most likely would leave it out. I personally don't think it sounds stupid at all.
    Last edited by CrazyNotCrazie; 03-02-2021 at 09:19 AM.

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    And what has happened to our T's?!?!?

    Cam New'un
    What a cute ki'un
    Say it how it is wri'un.

    I think some people are doing it on purpose now, b/c what? They think it's cool to sound stupid?
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I grew up in the NJ suburbs of NY and have been told that this is part of our regional dialect (my speech p. It requires a very significant conscious effort for me to pronounce those t's - in the flow of normal conversation I most likely would leave it out. I personally don't think it sounds stupid at all.
    I grew up in NY and live in NJ now and I laughed at aimo's post thinking "what idiots!" But after reading CNC's post, I started saying those lines out loud and it seems I do it. I can't even say the sentences with the "t's" it feels so peculiar. So count me in as sounding stupid (although where I live I agree with CNC that this is the norm), but I wasn't even consciously aware that I did it.
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I grew up in NY and live in NJ now and I laughed at aimo's post thinking "what idiots!" But after reading CNC's post, I started saying those lines out loud and it seems I do it. I can't even say the sentences with the "t's" it feels so peculiar. So count me in as sounding stupid (although where I live I agree with CNC that this is the norm), but I wasn't even consciously aware that I did it.
    I'm not talking about pronouncing without sharp T's. Like noo-tn. I am talking about no T at all. As if Cam Newton's name was spelled Newun.

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by aimo View Post
    I'm not talking about pronouncing without sharp T's. Like noo-tn. I am talking about no T at all. As if Cam Newton's name was spelled Newun.
    That is generally how I pronounce it - Newun. I pronounce mitten as mi-un. In order to form the intermediate t sound, the tongue presses against the back of your front teeth. Mine doesn't do that. I don't think it is particularly noticeable.

    And again, I think it is kind of judgy to say that makes people sound stupid. I know that is the purpose of this thread, but there are speech habits that irk and ones that make the speaker sound stupid - I think this better qualifies as an irk. I am very attuned to linguistic differences and accents and there is a distinction between these things. Of course, our past experiences also influence our opinion of things - if a really dumb person one met at some point in life did this, one would associate it with being dumb, even if there are plenty of other smart people who do the same thing.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    There is a spectrum of glottal stopping going on with respect to the 't' sound, as in Cam's last name. (Probably using Cam's last name as an example isn't great, because there are also differences and preferences in the way the FIRST syllable is pronounced; old-timers and British purists would pronounce the first syllable 'nyoo' rather than 'noo.' But let's move on to the 't' aspect of the name and forget about the first syllable for now.)

    1) The traditional way of pronouncing it is to say the hard 't' full on. 'New-ton.'

    2) Then there is a soft glottal stop, in which the 't' isn't specifically pronounced, but there is no actual pause in the sound as the name is said. This stuff is hard to spell...for lack of any other option, let's say 'New'un,' but with the caveat that there isn't a hard stop and there isn't any pause at all. Really it is closer to 'newt-un,' with the 't' kind of quiet and attached to the first syllable as opposed to the last. And you skip straight over from the quiet 't' sound to the second syllable. Doesn't sound as formal as 'new-ton,' in which the 't' sound is placed squarely on the second syllable.

    3) Then there is the (in my opinion) more obnoxious way of doing a glottal stop, which has become more and more popular over the past ten years or so; that is, to pronounce it 'new'''un,' with a very early complete stop, no 't' at all, and a fairly long pause before the second syllable is pronounced.



    As mentioned, I do think this a spectrum, not just three ways; there are various degrees of the latter pronunciation. I suspect the latter is the one that has been deemed to make one sound stupid. I don't think anybody sounds stupid at all if they use pronunciation number 2, and to my ear, pronunciation number 1 often comes off sounding snooty or overly formal or overly sophisticated. I might use the hard 't' in formal speaking, or at a job interview, or if I were a voice actor and the job asked for it. In casual conversation I am always using pronunciation number 2, with the soft glottal stop.

    It will be a VERY COLD DAY in HELL before you ever hear me using pronunciation number 3, unless I am imitating somebody else or doing it for comic effect. And, with apologies to anybody who speaks that way, I, too, think it makes the speaker sound less intelligent than they probably actually are. My father always told me that, whenever possible, I should try to avoid sounding stupider than I actually am (presumably because I am stupid enough already).
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    2) Then there is a soft glottal stop, in which the 't' isn't specifically pronounced, but there is no actual pause in the sound as the name is said. This stuff is hard to spell...for lack of any other option, let's say 'New'un,' but with the caveat that there isn't a hard stop and there isn't any pause at all. Really it is closer to 'newt-un,' with the 't' kind of quiet and attached to the first syllable as opposed to the last. And you skip straight over from the quiet 't' sound to the second syllable. Doesn't sound as formal as 'new-ton,' in which the 't' sound is placed squarely on the second syllable.

    3) Then there is the (in my opinion) more obnoxious way of doing a glottal stop, which has become more and more popular over the past ten years or so; that is, to pronounce it 'new'''un,' with a very early complete stop, no 't' at all, and a fairly long pause before the second syllable is pronounced.
    The boundary between these two is where the tongue is when you get to the "t". In version 2, the tongue presses against the roof of the mouth and/or back of the teeth, even though the mouth never fully closes and you don't force additional air out of your mouth. In shape, it is almost completely like the full pronunciation, except additional air for the second syllable is forced up to the nose instead of getting released out of the mouth.

    Under method three, the tongue doesn't go the roof of the mouth and the gap in the word and the extra air is provided not by the tongue, but from deep in the throat. It becomes a nearly-complete gap in the word. It's like very quickly pronouncing two complete words "new" and "(e)n".

    I agree that it is a spectrum, but the tongue position and where the air comes from/goes to is the crucial differentiator.

    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    It will be a VERY COLD DAY in HELL before you ever hear me using pronunciation number 3, unless I am imitating somebody else or doing it for comic effect.
    I'm afraid this applies to me, also. I find method three to be very grating.

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spectrum of glottal stopping going on with respect to the 't' sound, as in Cam's last name. (Probably using Cam's last name as an example isn't great, because there are also differences and preferences in the way the FIRST syllable is pronounced; old-timers and British purists would pronounce the first syllable 'nyoo' rather than 'noo.' But let's move on to the 't' aspect of the name and forget about the first syllable for now.)

    1) The traditional way of pronouncing it is to say the hard 't' full on. 'New-ton.'

    2) Then there is a soft glottal stop, in which the 't' isn't specifically pronounced, but there is no actual pause in the sound as the name is said. This stuff is hard to spell...for lack of any other option, let's say 'New'un,' but with the caveat that there isn't a hard stop and there isn't any pause at all. Really it is closer to 'newt-un,' with the 't' kind of quiet and attached to the first syllable as opposed to the last. And you skip straight over from the quiet 't' sound to the second syllable. Doesn't sound as formal as 'new-ton,' in which the 't' sound is placed squarely on the second syllable.

    3) Then there is the (in my opinion) more obnoxious way of doing a glottal stop, which has become more and more popular over the past ten years or so; that is, to pronounce it 'new'''un,' with a very early complete stop, no 't' at all, and a fairly long pause before the second syllable is pronounced.



    As mentioned, I do think this a spectrum, not just three ways; there are various degrees of the latter pronunciation. I suspect the latter is the one that has been deemed to make one sound stupid. I don't think anybody sounds stupid at all if they use pronunciation number 2, and to my ear, pronunciation number 1 often comes off sounding snooty or overly formal or overly sophisticated. I might use the hard 't' in formal speaking, or at a job interview, or if I were a voice actor and the job asked for it. In casual conversation I am always using pronunciation number 2, with the soft glottal stop.

    It will be a VERY COLD DAY in HELL before you ever hear me using pronunciation number 3, unless I am imitating somebody else or doing it for comic effect. And, with apologies to anybody who speaks that way, I, too, think it makes the speaker sound less intelligent than they probably actually are. My father always told me that, whenever possible, I should try to avoid sounding stupider than I actually am (presumably because I am stupid enough already).
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    The boundary between these two is where the tongue is when you get to the "t". In version 2, the tongue presses against the roof of the mouth and/or back of the teeth, even though the mouth never fully closes and you don't force additional air out of your mouth. In shape, it is almost completely like the full pronunciation, except additional air for the second syllable is forced up to the nose instead of getting released out of the mouth.

    Under method three, the tongue doesn't go the roof of the mouth and the gap in the word and the extra air is provided not by the tongue, but from deep in the throat. It becomes a nearly-complete gap in the word. It's like very quickly pronouncing two complete words "new" and "(e)n".

    I agree that it is a spectrum, but the tongue position and where the air comes from/goes to is the crucial differentiator.



    I'm afraid this applies to me, also. I find method three to be very grating.
    Thanks for the helpful explanations. I think I am closer to 2 than 3, though not necessarily purely in bucket 2. Despite your explanations, I am having a hard time determining exactly what 3 would sound like.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    The fact that "putting" and "pudding" are pronounced similarly, but that "putting" and "putting" are pronounced differently.
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Thanks for the helpful explanations. I think I am closer to 2 than 3, though not necessarily purely in bucket 2. Despite your explanations, I am having a hard time determining exactly what 3 would sound like.
    Say "uh-oh" the way you do when something goes terribly wrong. Now just replace the two syllables of "uh-oh" with "new-un" and you will get exactly what I am talking about.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, within a couple of miles of Cameron
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueTeuf View Post
    Are we suggesting that bad beer doesn't affect one's dialect and word choices? I find I'm much more eloquent (and descriptive) when inebriated.

    Okay..on topic... it irks me that the word Polish changes pronunciation when you take away its capitalization.
    Can't remember off the top of my head who used it, but a while back one poster's tagline was 'My favorite beer? The fifth one, as it makes me both handsome and fearless!'
    Hope he/she is still around.

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by JStuart View Post
    Can't remember off the top of my head who used it, but a while back one poster's tagline was 'My favorite beer? The fifth one, as it makes me both handsome and fearless!'
    Hope he/she is still around.
    Hah. With regard to the number of beers to reach that stage, it does depend on the gravity of the situation. 😂

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio

    The Voice

    With all the discussion that's popped up related to regional accents and dialects, I thought I'd mention a book I just finished reading which addresses this very subject - and maybe more academically than we do.

    The book is, "This is the Voice" by John Colapinto. The beginning of the book covers the physics, mechanics and intellect required for humans to speak. And also discusses the differences in the vocal tracts of other animals describing why they are physically incapable of making the sounds humans can.

    Interesting fact I didn't previously know. In their first months, humans can only phonate (I think that's the right word) the same sounds that chimpanzees can make. Our voice boxes migrate downwards when we go from liquid food to solid food, and it is that relocation that permits making a broader range of sounds.

    After addressing all the tiny details associated with creating the sounds we use to speak, the author spends time addressing the variations associated with learning different languages along with dialects and regional accents - just like the ones mentioned upthread.

    One other new learning for me on that subject is that if you are going to become a native, English, French, German, or whatever speaker, you begin learning some of the language fundamentals in the last two months before birth.

    Pretty interesting book if you find the subject entertaining.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    Hah. With regard to the number of beers to reach that stage, it does depend on the gravity of the situation. 😂
    And of the beverage(s).
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    The fact that "putting" and "pudding" are pronounced similarly, but that "putting" and "putting" are pronounced differently.
    Wrong thread alert!
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spectrum of glottal stopping going on with respect to the 't' sound, as in Cam's last name. (Probably using Cam's last name as an example isn't great, because there are also differences and preferences in the way the FIRST syllable is pronounced; old-timers and British purists would pronounce the first syllable 'nyoo' rather than 'noo.' But let's move on to the 't' aspect of the name and forget about the first syllable for now.)

    1) The traditional way of pronouncing it is to say the hard 't' full on. 'New-ton.'

    2) Then there is a soft glottal stop, in which the 't' isn't specifically pronounced, but there is no actual pause in the sound as the name is said. This stuff is hard to spell...for lack of any other option, let's say 'New'un,' but with the caveat that there isn't a hard stop and there isn't any pause at all. Really it is closer to 'newt-un,' with the 't' kind of quiet and attached to the first syllable as opposed to the last. And you skip straight over from the quiet 't' sound to the second syllable. Doesn't sound as formal as 'new-ton,' in which the 't' sound is placed squarely on the second syllable.

    3) Then there is the (in my opinion) more obnoxious way of doing a glottal stop, which has become more and more popular over the past ten years or so; that is, to pronounce it 'new'''un,' with a very early complete stop, no 't' at all, and a fairly long pause before the second syllable is pronounced.

    As mentioned, I do think this a spectrum, not just three ways; there are various degrees of the latter pronunciation. I suspect the latter is the one that has been deemed to make one sound stupid. I don't think anybody sounds stupid at all if they use pronunciation number 2, and to my ear, pronunciation number 1 often comes off sounding snooty or overly formal or overly sophisticated. I might use the hard 't' in formal speaking, or at a job interview, or if I were a voice actor and the job asked for it. In casual conversation I am always using pronunciation number 2, with the soft glottal stop.

    It will be a VERY COLD DAY in HELL before you ever hear me using pronunciation number 3, unless I am imitating somebody else or doing it for comic effect. And, with apologies to anybody who speaks that way, I, too, think it makes the speaker sound less intelligent than they probably actually are. My father always told me that, whenever possible, I should try to avoid sounding stupider than I actually am (presumably because I am stupid enough already).
    I was involved in a matter once in which my clients (educators) made a call to the juvenile authorities when a disabled child came to school with bruises on him and was asked how they came about and he said "mom hit." The parents insisted that he couldn't say "hit" because he couldn't make the "t" sound. Fortunately one of the educators was a speech therapist who set everyone straight about what a glottal stop was, and that this child could indeed do that.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    There is a spectrum of glottal stopping going on with respect to the 't' sound, as in Cam's last name. (Probably using Cam's last name as an example isn't great, because there are also differences and preferences in the way the FIRST syllable is pronounced; old-timers and British purists would pronounce the first syllable 'nyoo' rather than 'noo.' But let's move on to the 't' aspect of the name and forget about the first syllable for now.)

    1) The traditional way of pronouncing it is to say the hard 't' full on. 'New-ton.'

    2) Then there is a soft glottal stop, in which the 't' isn't specifically pronounced, but there is no actual pause in the sound as the name is said. This stuff is hard to spell...for lack of any other option, let's say 'New'un,' but with the caveat that there isn't a hard stop and there isn't any pause at all. Really it is closer to 'newt-un,' with the 't' kind of quiet and attached to the first syllable as opposed to the last. And you skip straight over from the quiet 't' sound to the second syllable. Doesn't sound as formal as 'new-ton,' in which the 't' sound is placed squarely on the second syllable.

    3) Then there is the (in my opinion) more obnoxious way of doing a glottal stop, which has become more and more popular over the past ten years or so; that is, to pronounce it 'new'''un,' with a very early complete stop, no 't' at all, and a fairly long pause before the second syllable is pronounced.



    As mentioned, I do think this a spectrum, not just three ways; there are various degrees of the latter pronunciation. I suspect the latter is the one that has been deemed to make one sound stupid. I don't think anybody sounds stupid at all if they use pronunciation number 2, and to my ear, pronunciation number 1 often comes off sounding snooty or overly formal or overly sophisticated. I might use the hard 't' in formal speaking, or at a job interview, or if I were a voice actor and the job asked for it. In casual conversation I am always using pronunciation number 2, with the soft glottal stop.

    It will be a VERY COLD DAY in HELL before you ever hear me using pronunciation number 3, unless I am imitating somebody else or doing it for comic effect. And, with apologies to anybody who speaks that way, I, too, think it makes the speaker sound less intelligent than they probably actually are. My father always told me that, whenever possible, I should try to avoid sounding stupider than I actually am (presumably because I am stupid enough already).
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    The boundary between these two is where the tongue is when you get to the "t". In version 2, the tongue presses against the roof of the mouth and/or back of the teeth, even though the mouth never fully closes and you don't force additional air out of your mouth. In shape, it is almost completely like the full pronunciation, except additional air for the second syllable is forced up to the nose instead of getting released out of the mouth.

    Under method three, the tongue doesn't go the roof of the mouth and the gap in the word and the extra air is provided not by the tongue, but from deep in the throat. It becomes a nearly-complete gap in the word. It's like very quickly pronouncing two complete words "new" and "(e)n".

    I agree that it is a spectrum, but the tongue position and where the air comes from/goes to is the crucial differentiator.



    I'm afraid this applies to me, also. I find method three to be very grating.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Thanks for the helpful explanations. I think I am closer to 2 than 3, though not necessarily purely in bucket 2. Despite your explanations, I am having a hard time determining exactly what 3 would sound like.
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Say "uh-oh" the way you do when something goes terribly wrong. Now just replace the two syllables of "uh-oh" with "new-un" and you will get exactly what I am talking about.
    I also am having trouble imagining what rsvman's category 2 and 3 pronunciations sound like. Can anyone post an audio file of these pronunciations? Or point me to an audio file that illustrates the missing t's, glottal stops and all?

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skydog View Post
    I also am having trouble imagining what rsvman's category 2 and 3 pronunciations sound like. Can anyone post an audio file of these pronunciations? Or point me to an audio file that illustrates the missing t's, glottal stops and all?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vabg-EUHOQk

    From 19 seconds through 38 seconds you will here pronunciation number two, described in this video as typical American pronunciation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chcjHwWwVxQ

    This woman is British, so it sounds a BIT different, but she demonstrates number 3; from 25 seconds through about 1:35 you can hear what it sounds like with a British accent.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  19. #219
    Y'all is never "you all", but may be, "You". Sometimes used as "you guys".
    ~rthomas

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vabg-EUHOQk

    From 19 seconds through 38 seconds you will here pronunciation number two, described in this video as typical American pronunciation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chcjHwWwVxQ

    This woman is British, so it sounds a BIT different, but she demonstrates number 3; from 25 seconds through about 1:35 you can hear what it sounds like with a British accent.
    That was helpful. I realize I’m not great at noticing subtleties in speech. I’ve always been envious of those who are more adept at this and are able to pick up impressions and master accents quickly. Jimmy Fallon for example - he can hear someone say or sing something once and then immediately duplicate it almost perfectly.

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