Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 102
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Only valuable if all the young pieces are coming back.
    Seeing as we know some of them will be back, I would argue it is still valuable. The only young player who seems certain to leave is Jalen. That's a lot of other guys who could benefit from playing under tournament pressure.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by PSurprise View Post
    Wish we had more of those this past Fall.
    So many that it's ingrained in my spelling now.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Seeing as we know some of them will be back, I would argue it is still valuable. The only young player who seems certain to leave is Jalen. That's a lot of other guys who could benefit from playing under tournament pressure.
    Who do we know​ is back?

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Durham, NC
    I didn't like it when Coach P turned down an NIT invitation the year Greenwell was hurt, and I won't like it if Coach K turns down an NIT invitation now. It's an opportunity to play games and represent the school.

    If the players vote to turn it down, that's a whole different thing.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Who do we know​ is back?
    I mean, no one has declared anything but I don't think anyone expects Roach, Brakefield, Coleman, or Williams to really consider turning pro. The consensus right now seems to be that DJ Steward will have a decision to make, but most draft analysts think he is enough of a fringe prospect so that a year of added strength and better shooting could really help his stock.

    That's the freshmen -- among the sophs, I think everyone expects Wendell Moore to return to Duke. Hurt is likely to leave, but it is not a lock. Joey Baker will be back for his senior campaign.

    -Jason "I suppose we might lose someone to transfer, it is always possible (but not very common), but that's even harder to predict than NBA decisions" Evans
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I mean, no one has declared anything but I don't think anyone expects Roach, Brakefield, Coleman, or Williams to really consider turning pro. The consensus right now seems to be that DJ Steward will have a decision to make, but most draft analysts think he is enough of a fringe prospect so that a year of added strength and better shooting could really help his stock.

    That's the freshmen -- among the sophs, I think everyone expects Wendell Moore to return to Duke. Hurt is likely to leave, but it is not a lock. Joey Baker will be back for his senior campaign.

    -Jason "I suppose we might lose someone to transfer, it is always possible (but not very common), but that's even harder to predict than NBA decisions" Evans
    It is fair to say those guys might be back, and certainly some of them will be, but saying we "know" it is overstating the case, and of the group you listed outside of Stewart, it would be pretty surprising given patterns of past teams if we didn't have at least one more surprise departure, one way or the other. It has been quite a few years since someone saying they "knew" the young non-lottery locks would be back would have been right.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I mean, no one has declared anything but I don't think anyone expects Roach, Brakefield, Coleman, or Williams to really consider turning pro. The consensus right now seems to be that DJ Steward will have a decision to make, but most draft analysts think he is enough of a fringe prospect so that a year of added strength and better shooting could really help his stock.

    That's the freshmen -- among the sophs, I think everyone expects Wendell Moore to return to Duke. Hurt is likely to leave, but it is not a lock. Joey Baker will be back for his senior campaign.

    -Jason "I suppose we might lose someone to transfer, it is always possible (but not very common), but that's even harder to predict than NBA decisions" Evans
    Goldwire and Tapé could also come back, if they want.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    It is fair to say those guys might be back, and certainly some of them will be, but saying we "know" it is overstating the case, and of the group you listed outside of Stewart, it would be pretty surprising given patterns of past teams if we didn't have at least one more surprise departure, one way or the other. It has been quite a few years since someone saying they "knew" the young non-lottery locks would be back would have been right.
    I think Jason said we know “some of them” will be back. Not that we know which of the group will comprise that “some.” And a tourney experience would be valuable for whomever of the group returns.

    I would venture fairly confidently that more than half will be back. I won’t venture as to which ones, or exactly how many more than half. But to Jason’s point, for however many do return, a tourney will be valuable experience.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    I mean, no one has declared anything but I don't think anyone expects Roach, Brakefield, Coleman, or Williams to really consider turning pro. The consensus right now seems to be that DJ Steward will have a decision to make, but most draft analysts think he is enough of a fringe prospect so that a year of added strength and better shooting could really help his stock.

    That's the freshmen -- among the sophs, I think everyone expects Wendell Moore to return to Duke. Hurt is likely to leave, but it is not a lock. Joey Baker will be back for his senior campaign.

    -Jason "I suppose we might lose someone to transfer, it is always possible (but not very common), but that's even harder to predict than NBA decisions" Evans
    Speaking of Baker - now that we know he is granted an extra year of availability, can we revisit the "burning Baker's redshirt was a horrible mistake" thread we had a few years ago?

    I insisted that it was impossible to deem it a mistake until he was gone from Duke. Seems that this tilts the scales towards "overblown drama" at the time and zero long term effect.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Speaking of Baker - now that we know he is granted an extra year of availability, can we revisit the "burning Baker's redshirt was a horrible mistake" thread we had a few years ago?

    I insisted that it was impossible to deem it a mistake until he was gone from Duke. Seems that this tilts the scales towards "overblown drama" at the time and zero long term effect.
    To be fair, it would have been difficult to predict at the time that it wouldn't matter because of a national pandemic that resulted in him getting a 5th year anyway. "Rather be lucky than good" and all, but I'm not sure you can really take credit for calling that one correctly here.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    We send the banner over to the Dean Dome for hanging, if they can find enough ceiling space.
    Gotcha rsvman. If not the ceiling, then the roof.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Goldwire and Tapé could also come back, if they want.
    Goldwire more likely than Hurt imo. The Tapé situation is just sad.
    Last edited by -jk; 02-11-2021 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Spelling

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Speaking of Baker - now that we know he is granted an extra year of availability, can we revisit the "burning Baker's redshirt was a horrible mistake" thread we had a few years ago?

    I insisted that it was impossible to deem it a mistake until he was gone from Duke. Seems that this tilts the scales towards "overblown drama" at the time and zero long term effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    To be fair, it would have been difficult to predict at the time that it wouldn't matter because of a national pandemic that resulted in him getting a 5th year anyway. "Rather be lucky than good" and all, but I'm not sure you can really take credit for calling that one correctly here.
    Yep, the assessment needs to be made based on where things were then. Surely Coach K knew that Baker wasn’t going to play significant minutes that year when the decision was made. Unless Coach K knew back in early 2019 that we would have cataclysmic worldwide disaster, I don’t think he can get relief on that one.

    Also worth noting that had Baker redshirted, he would have 3 more years of eligibility now instead of just the 2. The pandemic year doesn’t subtract that away, though who knows if Baker would use the 6th year if it had been available (he wouldn’t be the first to do so). And given that he made essentially zero impact on the results his freshman year, it still seems like a wasteful and short-sighted decision.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Skinker-DeBaliviere, Saint Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Seems that this tilts the scales towards "overblown drama" at the time and zero long term effect.

    Only if we're being reasonable about it.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    To be fair, it would have been difficult to predict at the time that it wouldn't matter because of a national pandemic that resulted in him getting a 5th year anyway. "Rather be lucky than good" and all, but I'm not sure you can really take credit for calling that one correctly here.
    Well, obviously no one knew about the pandemic - we can probably mostly agree that even K isn't omniscient.

    But my point at the time was - calling it an unequivocal mistake when it happened was impossible for exactly that reason among others. You can't write something off as a misstep when there are so many unknowns.

    At the time, the argument was that a fifth year Baker might be the missing cog. Well, now we know that burning the redshirt won't be the difference in finding out.

    I won't bother listing out other scenarios that would have borne out similar results, but certainly "worldwide pandemic" wasn't on my list at the time.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Well, obviously no one knew about the pandemic - we can probably mostly agree that even K isn't omniscient.

    But my point at the time was - calling it an unequivocal mistake when it happened was impossible for exactly that reason among others. You can't write something off as a misstep when there are so many unknowns.

    At the time, the argument was that a fifth year Baker might be the missing cog. Well, now we know that burning the redshirt won't be the difference in finding out.

    I won't bother listing out other scenarios that would have borne out similar results, but certainly "worldwide pandemic" wasn't on my list at the time.
    But the reason it was unequivocally a mistake is that it offered basically no upside. Coach K essentially never played Baker. And he had to know that was going to be the case when he put Baker in.

    So given that Baker was never likely to play meaningful minutes that year, there was no benefit to burning the redshirt. And there was no way that we would get an extra year that didn’t involve losing a more valuable version of him in a subsequent season. If he had redshirted last year or this year, we would have lost more player value than we did in 2019. And even with the pandemic year, had he redshirted the first year he would be a sophomore now with 3 more years instead of a junior with 2.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    But the reason it was unequivocally a mistake is that it offered basically no upside. Coach K essentially never played Baker. And he had to know that was going to be the case when he put Baker in.
    At the time the decision was made to burn Baker's redshirt, Zion had just gotten injured and we didn't know how long he'd be out, we lost the UNC game badly, and we had a really difficult stretch ahead of us on the schedule. We needed a spark and needed some depth, we were already in need of more shooting, and everyone decided that Baker might be able to contribute. In retrospect we can look back and say it was the wrong decision, but I think that in that moment the decision was justifiable. K knows his players but can't exactly predict how well they will perform in games with 100% accuracy. And who knows how much his presence affected the team in practices and in his limited court time and how that was different because he knew he was eligible? Maybe without his engagement on the sidelines against Louisville we don't make that huge comeback. I know that's a bit of a stretch, but overall I think the uproar over burning his redshirt is kind of overblown and only being made in hindsight. Just like Zoubek should have been redshirted his freshman year, but we didn't know it at the time. Both Baker and the coaches decided it was worth the risk given the team that we had, and throwing all our eggs into that basket to maximize our chances at a title knowing that roster like that doesn't come around every year was a decision I'm comfortable with.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    At the time the decision was made to burn Baker's redshirt, Zion had just gotten injured and we didn't know how long he'd be out, we lost the UNC game badly, and we had a really difficult stretch ahead of us on the schedule. We needed a spark and needed some depth, we were already in need of more shooting, and everyone decided that Baker might be able to contribute. In retrospect we can look back and say it was the wrong decision, but I think that in that moment the decision was justifiable. K knows his players but can't exactly predict how well they will perform in games with 100% accuracy. And who knows how much his presence affected the team in practices and in his limited court time and how that was different because he knew he was eligible? Maybe without his engagement on the sidelines against Louisville we don't make that huge comeback. I know that's a bit of a stretch, but overall I think the uproar over burning his redshirt is kind of overblown and only being made in hindsight. Just like Zoubek should have been redshirted his freshman year, but we didn't know it at the time. Both Baker and the coaches decided it was worth the risk given the team that we had, and throwing all our eggs into that basket to maximize our chances at a title knowing that roster like that doesn't come around every year was a decision I'm comfortable with.
    Yes, I'm well aware of when Baker's redshirt was burned. There was no saving the season if Zion wasn't coming back, so adding Baker wasn't going to change the equation without Zion. The season was always going to rest on Zion's return. Furthermore, the coaching staff also had watched the team practice for months, and they had to have a pretty good idea that Baker wasn't going to make any impact on the court. I mean, they evidently had a good inclination of this, given how little he played even right out of the gate. If they didn't have a pretty good idea, then that is probably an indictment on the coaching staff. But I think they knew.

    I think it was a panic move, and I think it was a mistake. And no, this isn't a claim being made in hindsight. Most of the folks who have complained about it complained about it at the time as well.

    It may wind up not mattering much: Baker hasn't developed into a regular player yet, so he may never wind up relevant. But it was totally unnecessary given how little they planned to use him. And to the original point in this thread, the pandemic doesn't change that in any way.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yes, I'm well aware of when Baker's redshirt was burned. There was no saving the season if Zion wasn't coming back, so adding Baker wasn't going to change the equation without Zion. The season was always going to rest on Zion's return. Furthermore, the coaching staff also had watched the team practice for months, and they had to have a pretty good idea that Baker wasn't going to make any impact on the court. I mean, they evidently had a good inclination of this, given how little he played even right out of the gate. If they didn't have a pretty good idea, then that is probably an indictment on the coaching staff. But I think they knew.

    I think it was a panic move, and I think it was a mistake. And no, this isn't a claim being made in hindsight. Most of the folks who have complained about it complained about it at the time as well.

    It may wind up not mattering much: Baker hasn't developed into a regular player yet, so he may never wind up relevant. But it was totally unnecessary given how little they planned to use him. And to the original point in this thread, the pandemic doesn't change that in any way.
    Well my original point was that EVERYONE was complaining about it and that NO ONE would know until hindsight.

    Baker has proven a limited factor at best. If your argument is that a sixth year Baker would be a difference maker on a Duke team, well, I guess maybe.

    At the time, I was just frustrated that everyone seemed to be railing on K when it seemed to me like it was not an obviously bad move, and that we wouldn't really know the fallout for years to come.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Well my original point was that EVERYONE was complaining about it and that NO ONE would know until hindsight.

    Baker has proven a limited factor at best. If your argument is that a sixth year Baker would be a difference maker on a Duke team, well, I guess maybe.

    At the time, I was just frustrated that everyone seemed to be railing on K when it seemed to me like it was not an obviously bad move, and that we wouldn't really know the fallout for years to come.
    I mean, railing on him is probably a bit of an overstatement of what happened. And the argument was always about fifth year (or now sixth year) Baker compared with the minimal usage of first year Baker.

    At best, it was an irrelevant move. But when "at best" is "irrelevant", that should be the answer as to whether or not it was a good decision. No?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 66
    Last Post: 02-10-2021, 05:09 PM
  2. Portsmouth Invitational Tournament
    By awhom111 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-21-2017, 10:15 AM
  3. Nelson in Portsmouth Invitational Tournament
    By astoria26 in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-08-2008, 09:27 PM
  4. College Basketball Invitational Tournament
    By BCGroup in forum Elizabeth King Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •