MBB: Duke vs Notre Dame (Tuesday, Feb 9 4:30pm* ACCN) Pregame and In-game Thread

[CDu]

Game tomorrow. Time to start winning.

* Note: GoDuke says 4:30, ESPN says 4. Either way, an unusual start time so be prepared.

[CDu]

Must-win game for our at-large chances. Basically, we have to win all of the games we're supposed to win, plus probably a couple of games we're supposed to lose. There is no more margin for error at all. So, let's start winning!

This Notre Dame team will look a bit different from when we faced them in South Bend. They have added another body and have made a slight change to the starting lineup. They have started playing better of late, walloping Miami and Pitt and playing a nailbiter against Georgia Tech, all on the road. They now have a solid 7-man rotation of legitimate ACC players, with 3 as-needed minutes-fillers behind them.

They remain a veteran group and extremely well coached. Their offense is very deliberate, historically with an extreme focus on getting good looks from 3. They don't have many players capable of creating shots for themselves, so they are very reliant on running the offense (#16 nationally). They shoot it EXTREMELY well though both inside and out, and combined with their extremely low turnover rate they have a very good offense. It isn't the most talented team in the world, but they have experience and they are well-coached to exceed the sum of their parts. Defensively, they don't foul at all (#1 in the country) and don't force turnovers (#346). They don't do anything else particularly well as a team defensively, and are just mediocre on that end. They don't beat themselves on defense, but they also don't do much to beat you on defense.

Centers: Juwan Durham (6'11", 225lb senior transfer from UConn) is the center. Durham is a shotblocking machine and a solid rebounder on each end. He's the lone starter that isn't a shooting threat, but he's pretty athletic and long and can get putback points. Not a source of primary offense, mainly a screener and rebounder and finisher off putbacks and assists. Nate Laszewski (6'10", 225lb junior) is the nominal backup center. He's a stretch big who can shoot from 3. Sort of their version of Matthew Hurt. He is extremely dangerous shooter if left alone, hitting over 50% of his 3s. He's also a solid defensive rebounder. The only other true big is Matt Zona (6'9", 245lb freshman). Zona is another in the Mooney mold: below-the-rim game (for sure) but good shooter and good skills. But like Mooney was early on, he's not ready for ACC level yet. Basically, Zona plays spot minutes at best now that Notre Dame has more depth.

Forwards: Laszewski starts at the PF spot, but rotates up to C when Durham comes out. The other forward is Nikola Djogo (6'8", 230lb senior captain from Canada). Djogo is a versatile defender and a capable shooter from 3 point range. He focuses on doing the little things for the team. Djogo can also play down a spot at SF if needed, although he is rarely used in that role given the roster.

Wings: Trey Wertz (6'5", 195lb junior transfer from Santa Clara) and Dane Goodwin (6'6", 200lb junior) are the starters on the wing. Wertz is a long and athletic wing with good ballhandling skills and is perhaps the most gifted shot creator on the team. Wertz can of course really hit the 3, which allows him to fit right in with the Irish. But his skill set is somewhat reminiscent of Jerian Grant's (albeit not as well developed). Goodwin can really shoot it, but that's not all he brings to the table. He's also sneaky athletic and not afraid to battle inside, to the tune of 5 rebounds per game so far. Cormac Ryan (6'5", 195lb junior transfer from Stanford) has moved to a 6th man role with Wertz moving into the starting lineup. He is a co-captain despite his limited time in the program (sat out the season last year due to transfer). But he's a hard-nosed NYC kid who can shoot it really well and has a high bball IQ to go along with the scrappy game. He's not just a shooter, and knows how to use angles to get shots up in the lane despite not being super athletic. Both guys play as much as they can due to injuries. The fourth wing is Tony Sanders Jr (6'7", 200lb freshman). Sanders was a guy who wasn't expected to play much this year. But injuries to Carmody, Taylor, and Djogo forced Sanders into a regular role early in the season. Now that Wertz is in the rotation, Sanders plays sparingly.

Guards: There's just one guy here, and it's their other captain: Prentiss Hubb (6'3", 175lb junior). Hubb is a do-everything guy for the Irish. He's a more of a combo guard who can score and distribute than a true lead guard or point guard, but he leads the team in assists and steals and is second in scoring. Hubb is more smooth than explosive, and isn't great at scoring off the dribble. In fact, he's downright bad at it, shooting just 33.3% at the rim. Over half of his shots come from 3pt range. A lot is asked of Hubb, and that helps explain his 3.4 turnovers per game. He's a really good player, but is probably being asked to do too much. The only other guard is walk-on Elijah Morgan, who rarely ever plays.

This will be an important bounceback opportunity. We beat them comfortably in South Bend, but they are playing better than back then. Brey is such a good coach and because he has such a veteran team, it'll be a good barometer test for the team's confidence following last week's setbacks. It's a matchup of their strengths (3pt shooting) against our weakness (3pt shooting defense). Hopefully we bring it tomorrow afternoon.

[VA_BDevil]

Anyone know why we have a 4:30 start? Is this punishment for something?

[gofurman]

we have generally beaten (like ND game1) the teams with better O and worse D. ND is still a top 20 O but a sub-100 D. That fits our m.o. as it helps us get an offensive rhythm.

[UrinalCake]

Given the way Miami and UNC shot against us, ND may literally shoot over 100% from three.

It's going to be a tough game, they are playing much better than last time we faced them.

[TruBlu]

Anyone know why we have a 4:30 start? Is this punishment for something?

It’s being played outdoors to save on the electric bill. Also, Coach K is hoping that the 4 MPH wind will blow the opponent’s 3 point shots off course. Nothing else seems to work. 😡

[BlueDevilStop]

Duke will look for the season sweep of Notre Dame. Game preview:


https://bluedevilstop.com/duke-vs-no...-game-preview/

[Music man55]

Notre Dame is playing much better than December when we last faced them. I’ll tell ya, the way the Irish shoot the 3 and the way we have been getting destroyed by it lately, kind of has me concerned. Duke has to ABSOLUTELY lock down on their shooters, or it could be a long afternoon. I am hoping we can really get Hurt, Johnson, Steward and others going on offense, since ND doesn’t play great defense. If we can answer them with our offense and tighten down on their shooting, I think we win. Let the winning streak start tomorrow!! Go Duke!!

[dukelifer]

Anyone know why we have a 4:30 start? Is this punishment for something?

Allows teams to get in and out on the same day

[Billy Dat]

At this point, with the tough season the team is having, I am mostly interested in whether or not K can keep them engaged and improving. This season is so unique that normal expectations are out the window. Our players are isolated at the Washington Duke, our Coach has had COVID in his family and has been more candid than normal about the impact that is unprecedented environment has had one him (https://thespun.com/more/top-stories...ultuous-season), etc. So, I am honestly curious about how we execute this last ~1/3rd of the season...are we going to continue to be a .500 team? Will a staff and players, none of whom are used to losing this much, stay focused and hungry or will the staff "lose" the squad at some point?

I thought this quote from the UNC presser was informative:

On his mindset behind switching up the lineup tonight:
“People earn starting, and they have to keep earning it. That’s part of the growth. We have all these young guys; you have to keep earning it. That’s been part of our program. Mark (Williams) has been playing really well. Tonight’s game was a very difficult one. It was so physical inside, and he was not ready for that level. He will be. Then offensively they really clogged up the lane when he was in. I thought Henry (Coleman III) gave us an amazing boost. We just have to keep looking at different things for our team and keep getting better. The kids have great attitudes and great work ethics, and that’s what I’m looking for. However that turns out, it’ll turn out the best that it could turn out based on good attitudes and work ethic. It may not reach the level of expectations of other people, but if our kids do that it’ll reach the level of expectation for me. I’ve coached some real young teams before and you gotta stay with it. You gotta stay with it.”

What stood out is that the starting line-up changes were the addition of Mark Williams and Jeremy Roach with Jalen Johnson and Jordan Goldwire coming off the bench. I could read K's quote and think that, therefore, Johnson was not showing a good attitude and good work ethic, but how would that explain Goldwire, who one has to assume, based on his body of work, has both? Also, Roach did not play well against Miami, yet moved into the starting line-up. I don't know, but something doesn't feel right about Johnson. Obviously, he's been inconsistent all year, but it also doesn't feel like the coaches love him. So I am very curious to see how he does over this last stretch. Do they get him to "unpack his bags", ala the old story K used to tell about Carlos Boozer needing to focus on his time at Duke and not his future pro career, or will he already have an eye toward the draft?

I know there is a lot of talk in the "next season" thread about who will or won't come back, but I am hopeful that the Roach/Steward backcourt will play together next year so I am keen to watch them the rest of the way. They rarely both have a good game, maybe we can see more of that in this final 8 games?

Our defense was so poor against UNC and is down at 70 on KenPom. Yikes! Can that improve?

Speaking of KenPom, our "Luck" number is one of the worst in the country. I believe that means that, according to our game by game offensive and defensive efficiencies, we should have won more games. We have played in so many close games since our long holiday hiatus. I know DukeLifer, among others, has lamented our inability to make the big plays when we need them down the stretch. The fact that we failed to get off shots in the most critical possessions of our last two close losses is a sign that we are still a work-in-progress in search of a true identity. Others have lamented the lack of captains being named and cite is as proof of a lack of leadership. For us to keep growing, and certainly to be better next year, we need those leaders and that identity to emerge. That's what I am looking for the rest of the way, starting tomorrow.

[gofurman]

At this point, with the tough season the team is having, I am mostly interested in whether or not K can keep them engaged and improving. This season is so unique that normal expectations are out the window. Our players are isolated at the Washington Duke, our Coach has had COVID in his family and has been more candid than normal about the impact that is unprecedented environment has had one him (https://thespun.com/more/top-stories...ultuous-season), etc. So, I am honestly curious about how we execute this last ~1/3rd of the season...are we going to continue to be a .500 team? Will a staff and players, none of whom are used to losing this much, stay focused and hungry or will the staff "lose" the squad at some point?

I thought this quote from the UNC presser was informative:

On his mindset behind switching up the lineup tonight:
“People earn starting, and they have to keep earning it. That’s part of the growth. We have all these young guys; you have to keep earning it. That’s been part of our program. Mark (Williams) has been playing really well. Tonight’s game was a very difficult one. It was so physical inside, and he was not ready for that level. He will be. Then offensively they really clogged up the lane when he was in. I thought Henry (Coleman III) gave us an amazing boost. We just have to keep looking at different things for our team and keep getting better. The kids have great attitudes and great work ethics, and that’s what I’m looking for. However that turns out, it’ll turn out the best that it could turn out based on good attitudes and work ethic. It may not reach the level of expectations of other people, but if our kids do that it’ll reach the level of expectation for me. I’ve coached some real young teams before and you gotta stay with it. You gotta stay with it.”

What stood out is that the starting line-up changes were the addition of Mark Williams and Jeremy Roach with Jalen Johnson and Jordan Goldwire coming off the bench. I could read K's quote and think that, therefore, Johnson was not showing a good attitude and good work ethic, but how would that explain Goldwire, who one has to assume, based on his body of work, has both? Also, Roach did not play well against Miami, yet moved into the starting line-up. I don't know, but something doesn't feel right about Johnson. Obviously, he's been inconsistent all year, but it also doesn't feel like the coaches love him. So I am very curious to see how he does over this last stretch. Do they get him to "unpack his bags", ala the old story K used to tell about Carlos Boozer needing to focus on his time at Duke and not his future pro career, or will he already have an eye toward the draft?

I know there is a lot of talk in the "next season" thread about who will or won't come back, but I am hopeful that the Roach/Steward backcourt will play together next year so I am keen to watch them the rest of the way. They rarely both have a good game, maybe we can see more of that in this final 8 games?

Our defense was so poor against UNC and is down at 70 on KenPom. Yikes! Can that improve?

Speaking of KenPom, our "Luck" number is one of the worst in the country. I believe that means that, according to our game by game offensive and defensive efficiencies, we should have won more games. We have played in so many close games since our long holiday hiatus. I know DukeLifer, among others, has lamented our inability to make the big plays when we need them down the stretch. The fact that we failed to get off shots in the most critical possessions of our last two close losses is a sign that we are still a work-in-progress in search of a true identity. Others have lamented the lack of captains being named and cite is as proof of a lack of leadership. For us to keep growing, and certainly to be better next year, we need those leaders and that identity to emerge. That's what I am looking for the rest of the way, starting tomorrow.

Never have really understood this. Miami is in the midst of a bad year with horrible injuries and yet was still engaged and beat Duke and should’ve also beat VT. Tons of close losses but they keep trying.. tons of teams have years far worse than we are and never give up. Clemson was in the middle of a streak of getting beaten down by epic proportions (30 points a game) for three or four games - the likes of which we have not seen. They have come right back. If we don’t keep trying then our guys are not what I thought they were. If players can’t get up for an ACC game I have no sympathy ... Norte Dame was getting whooped and has turned their season around. Wake is improving etc. all these teams have suffered more than us and keep improving

[jv001]

Never have really understood this. Miami is in the midst of a bad year with horrible injuries and yet was still engaged and beat Duke and should’ve also beat VT. Tons of close losses but they keep trying.. tons of teams have years far worse than we are and never give up. Clemson was in the middle of a streak of getting beaten down by epic proportions (30 points a game) for three or four games - the likes of which we have not seen. They have come right back. If we don’t keep trying then our guys are not what I thought they were. If players can’t get up for an ACC game I have no sympathy ... Norte Dame was getting whooped and has turned their season around. Wake is improving etc. all these teams have suffered more than us and keep improving

Are you saying our guys have given up? Are you saying you think they will give up? I respect Coach K too much to think that will happen. Matter of fact, respect these young kids to think they will give up. Sure, they have lost focus many times but I don't think lack of effort is the problem. I believe they are a group of young men trying to learn the "Duke way" of playing basketball. Sometimes it looks like they're thinking too much, instead of just playing the game. Losing preseason work and those out of conference games set them back. Then they find themselves housed up at The Washington Duke Inn with little to no social time. I've not seen one player, well maybe one, that's not bought into this season and how it was dealt them. This team is weirdly built. No true point guard at this time and no wing player that can hit the three pointer and also take the ball to the basket. We don't have a true post player that we can run the offense through. Williams might eventually get there but not this season and Matthew seems to work outside to inside. We have a team of good basketball players that will probably improve but they can only improve so much in such a short time. I'll be rooting for them every game and won't be down on them. Hopefully other Duke fans will as well.

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Are you saying our guys have given up? Are you saying you think they will give up? I respect Coach K too much to think that will happen. Matter of fact, respect these young kids to think they will give up. Sure, they have lost focus many times but I don't think lack of effort is the problem. I believe they are a group of young men trying to learn the "Duke way" of playing basketball. Sometimes it looks like they're thinking too much, instead of just playing the game. Losing preseason work and those out of conference games set them back. Then they find themselves housed up at The Washington Duke Inn with little to no social time. I've not seen one player, well maybe one, that's not bought into this season and how it was dealt them. This team is weirdly built. No true point guard at this time and no wing player that can hit the three pointer and also take the ball to the basket. We don't have a true post player that we can run the offense through. Williams might eventually get there but not this season and Matthew seems to work outside to inside. We have a team of good basketball players that will probably improve but they can only improve so much in such a short time. I'll be rooting for them every game and won't be down on them. Hopefully other Duke fans will as well.

GoDuke!

Yeah, this team just isn't a cohesive bunch with the right parts. It bothers me when folks here are calling out effort or desire or want. I don't see a lack of any of those core things, and it seems strange to play that card.

It's just not a very well-built team - especially for all the uncertainty and inconsistency of this season.

It is possible for the team to not be very good and for it to not be anyone in particular's fault. It doesn't mean that K has lost his edge or that or players have crappy attitudes. I've definitely seen worse attitudes from players on very successful Duke teams.

[gofurman]

Are you saying our guys have given up? Are you saying you think they will give up? I respect Coach K too much to think that will happen. Matter of fact, respect these young kids to think they will give up. Sure, they have lost focus many times but I don't think lack of effort is the problem. I believe they are a group of young men trying to learn the "Duke way" of playing basketball. Sometimes it looks like they're thinking too much, instead of just playing the game. Losing preseason work and those out of conference games set them back. Then they find themselves housed up at The Washington Duke Inn with little to no social time. I've not seen one player, well maybe one, that's not bought into this season and how it was dealt them. This team is weirdly built. No true point guard at this time and no wing player that can hit the three pointer and also take the ball to the basket. We don't have a true post player that we can run the offense through. Williams might eventually get there but not this season and Matthew seems to work outside to inside. We have a team of good basketball players that will probably improve but they can only improve so much in such a short time. I'll be rooting for them every game and won't be down on them. Hopefully other Duke fans will as well.

GoDuke!

I didn't say that. Not at all. "Billy Dat" said that in HIS post, POST #10. Please read the first paragraph of post number 10 before responding. See what I quoted where Billy said this - (look upthread, I was responding to him) -

Billy Dat said:
At this point, with the tough season the team is having, I am mostly interested in whether or not K can keep them engaged and improving. This season is so unique that normal expectations are out the window. Our players are isolated at the Washington Duke, our Coach has had COVID in his family and has been more candid than normal about the impact that is unprecedented environment has had one him (https://thespun.com/more/top-stories...ultuous-season), etc. So, I am honestly curious about how we execute this last ~1/3rd of the season...are we going to continue to be a .500 team? Will a staff and players, none of whom are used to losing this much, stay focused and hungry or will the staff "lose" the squad at some point?

--
I find it a little odd that you all reacted to my post but not the guy who directly wondered aloud if our staff would "lose" the squad...

[jv001]

Yeah, this team just isn't a cohesive bunch with the right parts. It bothers me when folks here are calling out effort or desire or want. I don't see a lack of any of those core things, and it seems strange to play that card.

It's just not a very well-built team - especially for all the uncertainty and inconsistency of this season.

It is possible for the team to not be very good and for it to not be anyone in particular's fault. It doesn't mean that K has lost his edge or that or players have crappy attitudes. I've definitely seen worse attitudes from players on very successful Duke teams.

I know some Duke fans have said K is responsible for the way it's built but there's more to it than that. He probably thought Roach would be comparable to Tyus and Tre as a freshmen point guard. Of course he hasn't been but neither of the Jones brothers had the virus to contend with and Roach may not be completely healed from his high school knee injury. It took Quinn Cook two years to get all the way back. Putting trust in that knee is not easy. As for bad attitudes, I don't know of any problems in the program and I love the way DJ, Roach, Williams, Coleman and Brakefield seem to enjoy playing college basketball. I love that Matthew came back this season stronger. I love Jordan's desire to play good defense. I love that Wendell is improving from his terrible start to begin the season. In other words, there's a lot to love about these kids.

GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

I know some Duke fans have said K is responsible for the way it's built but there's more to it than that. He probably thought Roach would be comparable to Tyus and Tre as a freshmen point guard. Of course he hasn't been but neither of the Jones brothers had the virus to contend with and Roach may not be completely healed from his high school knee injury. It took Quinn Cook two years to get all the way back. Putting trust in that knee is not easy. As for bad attitudes, I don't know of any problems in the program and I love the way DJ, Roach, Williams, Coleman and Brakefield seem to enjoy playing college basketball. I love that Matthew came back this season stronger. I love Jordan's desire to play good defense. I love that Wendell is improving from his terrible start to begin the season. In other words, there's a lot to love about these kids.

GoDuke!

"Building a roster" in a highly competitive recruiting environment and during the one-and-done era is a lot like having a "potluck dinner." You don't necessarily know who's gonna be there and what they're gonna bring.

One thing K has done is to recruit more players. It's elementary operations research: it takes 12-18 months to recruit a player, but you only get four months warning that a player will leave. Both involve uncertainty. So, (in a business sense) we add to inventory in preparation for uncertain events.

[CDu]

I know some Duke fans have said K is responsible for the way it's built but there's more to it than that. He probably thought Roach would be comparable to Tyus and Tre as a freshmen point guard. Of course he hasn't been but neither of the Jones brothers had the virus to contend with and Roach may not be completely healed from his high school knee injury. It took Quinn Cook two years to get all the way back. Putting trust in that knee is not easy. As for bad attitudes, I don't know of any problems in the program and I love the way DJ, Roach, Williams, Coleman and Brakefield seem to enjoy playing college basketball. I love that Matthew came back this season stronger. I love Jordan's desire to play good defense. I love that Wendell is improving from his terrible start to begin the season. In other words, there's a lot to love about these kids.

GoDuke!

It may be semantics, but I would say that Roach has fully healed from his high school knee injury. That injury was 2+ years ago (Nov 2018), and he played last year in high school. I'd say that he's maybe not quite as explosive as he was in high school, but I don't think it's an issue of being fully healed.

And even that might not really be the issue. I think it's more that he has a skill set that worked in high school that he's trying to figure out how it fits at the college level, and he's not surrounded by the types of players that maximize his skills. Especially the lack of floor spacing from wings that would facilitate his ability to attack the rim, along with the added length and athleticism of college bigs.

Aside from that, I completely agree with you and the mountain man that I don't see a lack of want-to or bad attitudes, but rather a team that isn't ideally fit together that is trying to figure it out (along with the coaches), and doing so with the unfortunate mitigating circumstance that the pandemic has created.

[Billy Dat]

I find it a little odd that you all reacted to my post but not the guy who directly wondered aloud if our staff would "lose" the squad...

Hey gofurman, sorry you got caught in that crossfire!

My point was mostly about the unusual nature of this year for Duke, who has not experienced this kind of season in 26 years. The teams you cited are either used to mediocrity or have certainly experience it time and time again in recent memory. Duke's coaches know what it takes, but the young players don't, and K hasn't named captains so there seems to be a player-level leadership void. The players are being isolated more than their peers at other schools - it's just a completely foreign atmosphere so I am wondering how they react to it. I don't expect them to fold up, but the team psyche feels fragile from the outside. I'll always bet on K, and a win today is exactly what the team needs.

[jv001]

I didn't say that. Not at all. "Billy Dat" said that in HIS post, POST #10. Please read the first paragraph of post number 10 before responding. See what I quoted where Billy said this - (look upthread, I was responding to him) -

Billy Dat said:
At this point, with the tough season the team is having, I am mostly interested in whether or not K can keep them engaged and improving. This season is so unique that normal expectations are out the window. Our players are isolated at the Washington Duke, our Coach has had COVID in his family and has been more candid than normal about the impact that is unprecedented environment has had one him (https://thespun.com/more/top-stories...ultuous-season), etc. So, I am honestly curious about how we execute this last ~1/3rd of the season...are we going to continue to be a .500 team? Will a staff and players, none of whom are used to losing this much, stay focused and hungry or will the staff "lose" the squad at some point?

--
I find it a little odd that you all reacted to my post but not the guy who directly wondered aloud if our staff would "lose" the squad...

I was probably wrong but I took your last sentence; Wake is improving, etc. all these teams have suffered more than us and keep improving" to mean Duke was not giving the effort that Wake, Clemson and Miami were giving. Sorry if I was wrong. Looking at those 3 teams; over the last 6 games for each. Miami is 1-5, Wake is 2-4 and Clemson is 3-3. Of those 3 teams I would say Clemson has improved the most. They are 3-1 in their last 4 games. However, the Tigers were ranked pretty high before Covid. So, it's not surprising that they have gotten it together. Duke is 2-4 in their last 6 games and 2-2 in their last 4. Miami's only win was of course against our Blue Devils so that's something. I will have to say it's pretty sad that we're comparing Duke with Wake, Miami and Clemson. Those have not been very good teams in the last few years. I just don't think lack of effort is the biggest problem.

GoDuke!

[budwom]

I know the team has limitations. Having said that, it would be nice if they would concentrate on sound decision making...no more lazy, telegraphed passes, no more drives into the teeth of the defense. Some tenacity and focus on defense.