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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gep View Post
    One of the recurring themes that I see in these threads is the fact that this team *will* improve. It's just that there may not be enough time to get enough wins to make the NCAAT. But... if the improvement is sufficient, maybe they can win the ACCT and get into the tournament that way. They just need to peak come ACCT time... not worry about the regular season record. Maybe? Too optimistic?
    Postulating that we might have to win the acc tournament in order to reach the ncaa tournament is the opposite of optimistic.
    Having said that, if it comes to that, I don't see why it couldn't happen. I don't see any team in the conference that is so dominating that I couldn't imagine us beating them. Furthermore, we wouldn't have to beat them all, just the ones that happen to be on our path. So yeah, it could happen. I don't think it would be likely, because it would require an amount of consistency that I haven't seen from this team just yet, but it could happen, yes.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Postulating that we might have to win the acc tournament in order to reach the ncaa tournament is the opposite of optimistic.
    Having said that, if it comes to that, I don't see why it couldn't happen. I don't see any team in the conference that is so dominating that I couldn't imagine us beating them. Furthermore, we wouldn't have to beat them all, just the ones that happen to be on our path. So yeah, it could happen. I don't think it would be likely, because it would require an amount of consistency that I haven't seen from this team just yet, but it could happen, yes.
    UVa is looking like the class of our conference by far. Though, watching Gonzaga run them off the floor tells me anyone is susceptible to a bad night.

  3. #43
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    I enjoy posting and reading on this site. We are called fans for a reason. I don’t think it’s wrong or bad to criticize poor performances on the basketball court. I don’t think it’s wrong to criticize Coach K . DBR loyalists get so defensive about expressing our opinions about 2020/21 team. Covid 19 is a big issue. Does not seem to bother UVA or Illinois or Gonzaga or Baylor programs. Coach Few and Coach Bennett are thriving. This Duke team has a lot of flaws and I don’t think it’s wrong or disloyal to point that out. I would like this team to play good team basketball for 40 minutes. Matthew Hurt is having a good season. We need the rest of the team to step up.now.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    It is both that and too many of the “program guys” leaving after one or 1.5 years. The model requires that guys like Matt Jones, Quinn Cook, Grayson Allen, Amile Jefferson et al stay 3-4 (or 5) years and develop into dependable starters/regulars by their junior year. Guys like Tucker, Murphy, Gbinije, Ojeleye, Thornton leaving early helps break the system by leaving us without veteran regulars, even if they are role players. Add to that the guys who just don’t pan out (Hairston, thus far Baker) and it is a tightrope act.


    But the problem hasn’t been the one-and-dones. That is just the nature of recruiting good players. It is that the other guys haven’t panned out the way we need them too, and/or haven’t stuck around to “wait their turn.” And we haven’t quite managed the recruiting adjustment in the transfer market to account for that.
    And for some of those guys, I think they figured "their turn" was never gonna come. Meaning, they knew that with each succeeding wave of new talent coming in, they were just going to keep getting recruited over. I would put guys like Tucker, Murphy, Jeter, Obi, and Ojeleye in this category. Thornton was a little different because he was going to be the starting PG at Duke as a soph, but unfortunately that wasn't enough for his dad. As for the rest of those guys, though, with the exception of Ojeleye who obviously blossomed after leaving Durham, and maybe -- maybe -- Tucker, I don't think they were wrong. I don't think the rest of them would have been likely to have ever been starters or even major contributors off the bench at Duke given what we saw of them when at Duke and how they played at their subsequent schools.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    And for some of those guys, I think they figured "their turn" was never gonna come. Meaning, they knew that with each succeeding wave of new talent coming in, they were just going to keep getting recruited over. I would put guys like Tucker, Murphy, Jeter, Obi, and Ojeleye in this category. Thornton was a little different because he was going to be the starting PG at Duke as a soph, but unfortunately that wasn't enough for his dad. As for the rest of those guys, though, with the exception of Ojeleye who obviously blossomed after leaving Durham, and maybe -- maybe -- Tucker, I don't think they were wrong. I don't think the rest of them would have been likely to have ever been starters or even major contributors off the bench at Duke given what we saw of them when at Duke and how they played at their subsequent schools.
    I partially agree. Murphy and Obi weren’t ever going to play a meaningful role. They would have fallen in the Hairston category of guys who never developed into dependable players. I think Jeter would have played a meaningful role as a senior in 2019, ahead of Bolden and DeLaurier, based on his junior year at Arizona. And I think Ojeleye would have been quite useful on the 2016 and 2017 teams. I also think that a junior Tucker would have played over Baker last year, and had he stayed would have played this year as a senior. And as you mentioned losing Thornton obviously hurt in at least 2017 if not 2018 and 2019 as well.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    I think, for those who are tired of a OAD heavy approach, none of us would say we want Duke to stop recruiting the best players. But what you’ve outline so well is that there are many different approaches to winning basketball and Duke is taking arguably the least flexible path. I’d argue that every other top 10 program you listed is employing multiple strategies at once. For instance, Gonzaga is now recruiting McD AA AND international prospects, AND getting many of their players to stay for several years, establishing a solid system.

    For Duke, it’s felt like we were “all in” on OAD. There’s very little (seemingly) effort made to take in transfers, and - fair or not - Duke isn’t doing as much with its secondary recruits as the UNCs, Novas, Zags and Virginia’s of the world are. I suppose what I’m saying is that I honestly think Duke *has* achieved that balance of OAD and multi-year prospects from a recruiting standpoint, pretty much every year but a couple.

    Instead, the shortcoming is with developing those guys. The development just hasn’t been there for guys like Chase Jeter, Marques Bolden, Jacob Delaurier, Joey Baker or Alex O’Connell.

    Duke’s on track to hit something of a sweet spot next year, with (theoretically)the majority of the team back and an elite class coming in. But, that’ll depend on substantial growth for these guys from year 1 to year 2.

    -

    Also, back to the original article. Now that we know K apologized to the student reporter, can we drop belittling tone toward those who thought it was noteworthy and poor form from OUR coach? An attitude of “Quit whining, it could have been a whole lot worse” is boys’ club, locker room talk. As Duke fans, we are above that. What’s more, K preaches “Next Play” so he clearly holds himself to a higher standard than was on display Saturday night. Perhaps that’s why he apologized.
    So I’m late to the party, but if Coach K’s comments are considered a “chewing out” I must have watched the wrong Twitter video. Having read the questioner’s current piece it didn’t sound like he thought too much about it. I was expecting some shouting, profanity filled response after all I had read. Did I watch the wrong response? I expected a Paris Island drill instructor response. In talking with one of my 70 year old Duke friends, a retired Marine, he called some of the current students pussies. It seems the student took the answer fine, but maybe the rest of us are turning into snowflakes. As far as the other press members, they just needed to stir up some crap to get people to read some of their mediocre writing. Plus the Duke haters always going to hate on Coach K. If Coach thought he needed to apologize then fine, but I think this was the proverbial mountain out of a you know what. Maybe a win tonight will make us all feel better!

  7. #47
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    I will confess to being one of those fans who are far less engaged with this Duke team than prior editions. But this has less to do with their poor performance and everything to do with COVID.

    When COVID canceled the big dance, I was distraught as many others were. Confined at home by the pandemic, it would have been nice to at least be able to follow the NCAAT. Cancellations and postponements of the Masters, NBA playoffs and Tour de France followed soon after. What all this amounted to was a forced, cold turkey recovery from my sports addiction. And it worked. I discovered there’s more to life than sports, started spending more quality time with Mrs. Neal’s, zooming with extended family, etc.

    When sports resumed, I wasn’t really interested in following the NBA playoffs, rescheduled Tour de France or NFL.

    As Duke’s season started, I tried to watch the games, hoping to rekindle my interest as a basketball fan. I watched perhaps the first 10 minutes of 3 or 4 games before losing interest. Admittedly, this was 2020-21 Duke at its worst (bad starts have been discussed in this forum). I wasn’t really expecting to see a flurry of alley-oop dunks, spectacular defense and Zionesque plays. But I did expect to see a team. Guys playing off each other where the team is greater than the sum of the parts. We don’t have that, and I probably won’t follow along much for the rest of the season.

    If that makes me a fair-weather fan, so be it.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyman25 View Post
    I enjoy posting and reading on this site. We are called fans for a reason. I don’t think it’s wrong or bad to criticize poor performances on the basketball court. I don’t think it’s wrong to criticize Coach K . DBR loyalists get so defensive about expressing our opinions about 2020/21 team. Covid 19 is a big issue. Does not seem to bother UVA or Illinois or Gonzaga or Baylor programs. Coach Few and Coach Bennett are thriving. This Duke team has a lot of flaws and I don’t think it’s wrong or disloyal to point that out.
    This is how I feel as well. We all recognize the effect that COVID has had on our young team. We all understand that there are far more important things going on in the world than basketball. But I also think that criticizing the team's play or the coaching is fair game. That doesn't make you a bad fan. If you're going to enjoy the good times and celebrate the wins, then you have to also be willing to endure the losses and accept when things aren't going well. If anything it makes you appreciate the wins even more. The fans on this forum are far more reasonable and level-headed than the garbage I see on other boards. We are all passionate about our team and I will confess that I may at times let my emotions get the better of me after a tough loss, but I haven't seen any responses that are just over the top personal attacks or anything like that.

    I do appreciate the OP starting this thread and reminding us all to keep things in perspective.

    ETA: one minor nit to pick with heyman's post... I do think that were it not for COVID delays, UVA would not have dropped that game to San Francisco that was played in the bubble. Which means their only loss right now would be to Gonzaga, and they would probably by ranked #3.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyman25 View Post
    I enjoy posting and reading on this site. We are called fans for a reason. I don’t think it’s wrong or bad to criticize poor performances on the basketball court. I don’t think it’s wrong to criticize Coach K . DBR loyalists get so defensive about expressing our opinions about 2020/21 team. Covid 19 is a big issue. Does not seem to bother UVA or Illinois or Gonzaga or Baylor programs. Coach Few and Coach Bennett are thriving. This Duke team has a lot of flaws and I don’t think it’s wrong or disloyal to point that out. I would like this team to play good team basketball for 40 minutes. Matthew Hurt is having a good season. We need the rest of the team to step up.now.
    I don't discussions that are critical of the team or coach. We can and do discuss deficiencies and mistakes (or perceived mistakes) without bashing our team and players.

    This is a tough year in lots of fronts:
    • On the court we are struggling. Our defense is pretty bad, as is our outside shooting. We don't look like we are playing very well as a team often. Our freshman are weaker than in years past (and that's OK...we might keep some for a change) and the best one got hurt and was out for a while. Meanwhile we have more experienced players who might not be as good as the guys we have had in past. I mean Baker, just can't seem to find his shot, Hurt is scoring great but seems to struggle on defense and Goldwire is...well he's a guy that's normally backup/depth guy that's being asked to do more.
    • The Covid effect is real. It changes the game day experience, it changes the way the players go to class, I bet practice is different. It has some effect on everything. I think having such a young and inexperienced team makes it harder for Duke to get past all that then it does for teams starting solid Jr's and Sr's. Seniors have to adjust to playing and Covid. Freshman are having to adjust to being at college for the first time, playing college basketball while taking college classes, pretty much every part of their life being new to them....and Covid.
    • As fans, we can't go to games. When we watch games they are just not the same without the fans (atmosphere makes a difference). Plus Covid has caused serious issues that are so much bigger than hoops that for some it's harder to invest in all ways we normally do.


    I really hope our team starts to play better. There's a good bit of talent, it just has to come together and we have to adjust to what we have and not what we want (for example, if we don't shoot the 3 all that well, take fewer 3's and set some plays to attack the basket or work for solid midrange/short jumpers).

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    I don't discussions that are critical of the team or coach. We can and do discuss deficiencies and mistakes (or perceived mistakes) without bashing our team and players.

    This is a tough year in lots of fronts:
    • On the court we are struggling. Our defense is pretty bad, as is our outside shooting. We don't look like we are playing very well as a team often. Our freshman are weaker than in years past (and that's OK...we might keep some for a change) and the best one got hurt and was out for a while. Meanwhile we have more experienced players who might not be as good as the guys we have had in past. I mean Baker, just can't seem to find his shot, Hurt is scoring great but seems to struggle on defense and Goldwire is...well he's a guy that's normally backup/depth guy that's being asked to do more.
    • The Covid effect is real. It changes the game day experience, it changes the way the players go to class, I bet practice is different. It has some effect on everything. I think having such a young and inexperienced team makes it harder for Duke to get past all that then it does for teams starting solid Jr's and Sr's. Seniors have to adjust to playing and Covid. Freshman are having to adjust to being at college for the first time, playing college basketball while taking college classes, pretty much every part of their life being new to them...and Covid.
    • As fans, we can't go to games. When we watch games they are just not the same without the fans (atmosphere makes a difference). Plus Covid has caused serious issues that are so much bigger than hoops that for some it's harder to invest in all ways we normally do.


    I really hope our team starts to play better. There's a good bit of talent, it just has to come together and we have to adjust to what we have and not what we want (for example, if we don't shoot the 3 all that well, take fewer 3's and set some plays to attack the basket or work for solid midrange/short jumpers).
    I see very little actual bashing of players, which makes me think threads like this are referring to anything even slightly critical as "bashing". Personally I think the premise of this thread is sanctimonious and condescending, but maybe that is just me.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I see very little actual bashing of players, which makes me think threads like this are referring to anything even slightly critical as "bashing". Personally I think the premise of this thread is sanctimonious and condescending, but maybe that is just me.
    I can’t believe you would bash this thread like that.

    Just kidding, giving you a hearty +1 here.

  12. #52
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    I have trouble seeing how anyone can object to a thread pointing out that our kids are playing under unusual and trying circumstances, and that the OP hopes folks keep that in mind when they post.

    The OP didn't say you can't criticize. He didn't say that criticism was unwarranted. He didn't say his view was better than anyone else's or pass moral judgment. All he did IMO was point out an obvious fact and a point of humanity. Abide or not as everyone deems fit.

    Anyway -- bombs away y'all. As the OP said -- next play against GT tonight. That's my focus.

    (And FTR -- I think the coaches and players are certainly fair targets for criticism, both generally and in regard to this year specifically. K included).

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I have trouble seeing how anyone can object to a thread pointing out that our kids are playing under unusual and trying circumstances, and that the OP hopes folks keep that in mind when they post.

    The OP didn't say you can't criticize. He didn't say that criticism was unwarranted. He didn't say his view was better than anyone else's or pass moral judgment. All he did IMO was point out an obvious fact and a point of humanity. Abide or not as everyone deems fit.

    Anyway -- bombs away y'all. As the OP said -- next play against GT tonight. That's my focus.

    (And FTR -- I think the coaches and players are certainly fair targets for criticism, both generally and in regard to this year specifically. K included).
    I mean, I get it, and at face value you're right, but since I actually see very little "tearing down" on this board (currently and historically) and a lot of characterizing reasonable criticism as "tearing down" (again both currently and historically) it is hard for me to read the thread any other way.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I mean, I get it, and at face value you're right, but since I actually see very little "tearing down" on this board (currently and historically) and a lot of characterizing reasonable criticism as "tearing down" (again both currently and historically) it is hard for me to read the thread any other way.
    Understood, and I agree this board (outside of chat) is tame in the criticism department relative to others.

    Perhaps we agree on the OP’s point but see the need for the reminder differently — in which case we are in basic accord.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I see very little actual bashing of players, which makes me think threads like this are referring to anything even slightly critical as "bashing". Personally I think the premise of this thread is sanctimonious and condescending, but maybe that is just me.
    Dean Smith will be the judge of that, thank you very much . . . .
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripping William View Post
    Dean Smith will be the judge of that, thank you very much . . . .
    Folks with coaches in glass houses and all that....

  17. #57
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is offline Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I have trouble seeing how anyone can object to a thread pointing out that our kids are playing under unusual and trying circumstances, and that the OP hopes folks keep that in mind when they post.

    The OP didn't say you can't criticize. He didn't say that criticism was unwarranted. He didn't say his view was better than anyone else's or pass moral judgment. All he did IMO was point out an obvious fact and a point of humanity. Abide or not as everyone deems fit.

    Anyway -- bombs away y'all. As the OP said -- next play against GT tonight. That's my focus.

    (And FTR -- I think the coaches and players are certainly fair targets for criticism, both generally and in regard to this year specifically. K included).
    Thanks OldPhiKap... as is wont to happen on message boards, I think my original intend got distorted somewhere along the lines when we went on a tangent about OADs, haha.

    To be clear (and speak for myself, although many have done a good job speaking for me!), I am not saying you can't criticize this year's squad because of COVID. I am saying that any criticisms should be made in the context of this being an unprecedented season of college basketball, and one that has disproportionately affected the Duke program: if I recall correctly, an ESPN graphic from a few games ago showed that we had had the most games cancelled/rescheduled of any "power conference" team, and that's all from issues from other teams.

    Is this a vintage Duke team? Of course not, and we can be frustrated/disappointed by it. Would we be a vintage Duke team in a normal year? Probably not. But I'd also argue strongly that this team would be in a much better situation (the closest parallel would be the BI/Grayson led 2016 squad) than we are now with normal pre-season, non-con schedule, practice, etc... not to mention the mental toll of all this.

    In sports, as in all things, context is key. I think the original article did a great job of making the point that this season must be judged in context with the pandemic, and I wholeheartedly agree. Being frustrated/disappointed in a Duke team that is on the bubble, and pointing out the flaws that led to that situation, is of course reasonable. Some of the generalizing I see to the state of the entire program, Coach K's status, and the character of our players (it isn't as bad as it is on other boards, of course, but I think we can all agree there's been more of that this year than usual) is what I think we need to think more about.

    Now let's go beat GT tonight.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieTiger View Post
    I think, for those who are tired of a OAD heavy approach, none of us would say we want Duke to stop recruiting the best players. But what you’ve outline so well is that there are many different approaches to winning basketball and Duke is taking arguably the least flexible path. I’d argue that every other top 10 program you listed is employing multiple strategies at once. For instance, Gonzaga is now recruiting McD AA AND international prospects, AND getting many of their players to stay for several years, establishing a solid system.

    For Duke, it’s felt like we were “all in” on OAD. There’s very little (seemingly) effort made to take in transfers, and - fair or not - Duke isn’t doing as much with its secondary recruits as the UNCs, Novas, Zags and Virginia’s of the world are. I suppose what I’m saying is that I honestly think Duke *has* achieved that balance of OAD and multi-year prospects from a recruiting standpoint, pretty much every year but a couple.

    Instead, the shortcoming is with developing those guys. The development just hasn’t been there for guys like Chase Jeter, Marques Bolden, Jacob Delaurier, Joey Baker or Alex O’Connell.

    Duke’s on track to hit something of a sweet spot next year, with (theoretically)the majority of the team back and an elite class coming in. But, that’ll depend on substantial growth for these guys from year 1 to year 2.

    -

    Also, back to the original article. Now that we know K apologized to the student reporter, can we drop belittling tone toward those who thought it was noteworthy and poor form from OUR coach? An attitude of “Quit whining, it could have been a whole lot worse” is boys’ club, locker room talk. As Duke fans, we are above that. What’s more, K preaches “Next Play” so he clearly holds himself to a higher standard than was on display Saturday night. Perhaps that’s why he apologized.
    Agree with this, Tiger. I may be naive here, but I feel like there is a way to have our cake and eat it to. Not saying it's easy; it is a really hard needle to thread. To your point, why are we not able to develop more 3/4 year guys like Gonzaga, UVA, and our neighbors down 15-501? We have the occasional Amile or Grayson who develop in to All-ACC types, but we also seem to have a lot of guys who leave prematurely. We also have some unexpected OADs - Cassius and Gary Trent come to mind - but more power to these guys if they play themselves into that caliber.

    One thought I had: does being recruiting by and coming to Duke create in some of our guys unrealistic expectations? Some guys may have had delusions of grandeur, guys like Jordan Tucker and Derryck Thornton (for different reasons), and I wonder how much of that is because of the Duke brand, seeing their peers getting 1st/2nd round grades, and some perception of possibly getting recruited over. I may be too harsh here, but I've been wondering if this is part of our problem of not being able to keep guys longer.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by duketaylor View Post
    that 1998 Duke was possibly the most dominant of any Duke teams in any given NCAA seasons, with a totally dominant Elton Brand in the middle. This team lost to UCONN in the only championship/FF I've been to. I believe we had one loss going to the Final game. Thus, I agree with the premise, Duke championships have had dominant posts players, we need more. I thought we had a decent chance with Zion, even though he was 6'6". Same with Shelden!! Maybe my fave Duke post player. Christian wasn't a true pure post player, nor was Ferry. They had very good post skills, however!!
    I made two big mistakes in my earlier post. That's what happens when wife jvoo1 is trying to get my attention. First, it was 2010 and not 2011 NCAAT Champs and second, I left out another point I was going to make. When we've had an inside presence we've shot more foul shots than our opponent. That's true in years we didn't win it as well.

    GoDuke!

  20. #60
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    My complaint about OAD has little to nothing to do with Final Fours or, as in the Year of Zion, Awesomosity.

    I am also not trying to assert that K should care about my opinion. I do think he’s the GOAT, and as I get a little older myself, I realize that when you get into your 70’s, you’re always on a year to year contract. Even more than when he was younger, the future is now. Plus, I’m sure it may be more fun, or at least differently fun, to coach future NBA starters than yet another 5 star player who’s fringe NBA.

    My concern is my own enthusiasm for the team/players. I, personally, am very happy to watch a game involving a 20th ranked Duke team populated with players in which I’ve had a few years in which to learn about their families, woes, successes, etc. It’s fine if there’s a player or two who’s a freshman projected as a lottery pick—I’ve become a firm proponent that for most Really Elite freshmen, it would be misguided to delay the NBA. I’m okay with close/losing games if I care about the players. But, to me, it becomes problematic if the success of the team is—year after year—based on a core of guys who have no intention of staying in Durham more than 9 months, including a guy or two—every year— who transfers or goes pro while being counseled they’re going to be drafted in the 2nd round. Again, that may be the right decision for them, and they should do what they believe is best for themselves, but the annual disappearance of our best and next best players doesn’t lead me to feel the old allegiance. Obviously, the team needs 10 or 12 players, and half or more will be around for 4 years, but, by and large, almost none of these non-core guys is developing into strong starters.

    I say all this to explain why I have declining interest in watching Duke games.

    Covid exacerbates this relative disinterest, especially when I read that Rick Pitino recently contracted covid. He petitioned for delaying the season, apparently lived like a monk all season, but still got sick during a massive program breakout. Our women’s team did the brave thing, but the rest of our administration has been basically mute during the major crisis of their professional careers. Now’s the time for transformative leadership, and I’m not seeing it. It’s disappointing.

    Hey, I still have my Duke t shirts. I watch now and again. I’ve been a fan since I showed up on campus along with Gene Banks and Kenny Denmark, but that doesn’t mean I’m incapable of getting disenchanted.
    Last edited by johnb; 01-27-2021 at 12:14 PM.

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