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  1. #141
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    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I specifically noted that Brady is still throwing better balls than Peyton was. Please, please, read people's posts before you respond to them. That's twice in a row that I explicitly addressed your exact objection in the very post you were quoting.

    Having said that, Brady's downfield stats are atrocious this year. Not just by Brady's standards, but by the standards of any starting QB. He is winning by picking apart defenses on short throws with very little in the way of deep balls. That he is able to do this without the benefit of any real deep ball to speak of makes it (unfortunately) all the more impressive. The comparison is that both guys managed to continue to succeed despite an apparent decline in physical ability (yes, Peyton declined more than Brady has so far) due to their instincts/knowledge of the game. That was the point and comparison I was making.
    Nope, you gave Brady faint praise at best and said he should retire. And your comparison to Peyton Manning’s final couple of seasons was, frankly, absurd. Brady is playing at a WAY higher level than Manning was. No comparison whatsoever.

  2. #142
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    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Nope, you gave Brady faint praise at best and said he should retire.
    I most certainly did not, what is your deal?

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    There is nothing unlikable about Mahomes the person. I'm just tired of the constant coverage and fawning (and the fact that we will likely be hearing it for the next 10 years or more as long as he stays healthy makes this worse, not better). It just needs to be watered down a little bit. Historically, there have been a handful of guys that got this treatment each season, but the past two seasons it has been Mahomes, Mahomes, and Mahomes. Heck, Rodgers' MVP season is practically an afterthought. He finally started getting the acknowledgment as likely deserving of the MVP nod down the stretch this season, but even in those conversations it ends up being "Yeah, Rodgers should probably win the MVP award this year, but how about that Patrick Mahomes, huh?" I really can't remember anything like it in any sport I've followed (since I've been following it). Maybe MJ in the 90s, but I was pretty young and not following the NBA or sports media at all at that point so I don't really know. Even peak LeBron wasn't quite like this.

    It doesn't appear to matter whether anyone else is playing well, so the only hope for quelling the onslaught of Mahomes coverage is for him to lose. Thus, I've been pulling against the Chiefs all postseason and will continue to do so unless they face Tampa Bay.
    I take it that you don't follow golf, then?

  4. #144
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    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I most certainly did not, what is your deal?
    Here is a very recent quote from you in regard to Tom Brady:

    “I wish he would stop.”

    I interpreted that to mean you wish he would retire. What else could you have meant? My apologies if I jumped the gun on that one, but your intent seemed quite clear to me.

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    I take it that you don't follow golf, then?
    I do not, but fair point

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Here is a very recent quote from you in regard to Tom Brady:

    “I wish he would stop.”

    I interpreted that to mean you wish he would retire. What else could you have meant? My apologies if I jumped the gun on that one, but your intent seemed quite clear to me.
    "I wish he would stop" as in I'm not a fan of his and I'm ready for him to be done. That doesn't mean I think he should retire, he is obviously still capable of being a very good starting QB.

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by AZLA View Post
    Respect your opinion. But the rule is great. Football is not just about offense but defense, and defending your goal line. Today’s game rules are skewed heavily to reward offense and scoring, which is why it has become a passing league. If an offense player is about to score a TD but looses possession and the ball goes into the end zone, and if an offensive player recovers, they score 6 points with the option to go for 1 or 2 more. Kinda unfair. In rugby for example the ball would be taken far back on the pitch and still in the offense’s possession. In football it’s 7 points. Where as defense only gets it at their 20 yard line. This heavily favors and rewards the offense if they regain control. If the ball is fumbled by offense anywhere else football, the rule favors the offense, and they not only get it back, they get it back where it went out if it’s anywhere else on the field besides the end zone. Out of 120 yards of the field, for 100 of yards of it, the offense is rewarded with the ball. The end zone is what the defense is defending — it’s their last stand — and considering how rewarded offense is by the rules and that it is so rare and they get less than 17% out of bounds ruling for the entire field — this is the last equalizer for Defense that they have. And it’s a great rule in my opinion. That being said the hit wouldn’t have been flagged even a few years ago, but it was clearly targeting and Cleveland should have been awarded the ball based at the point of foul.

    Lastly, same for basketball, if there’s a tie up for a ball, there should not be a possession arrow or jump ball — I believe that defense should always be awarded the ball. Just an opinion.
    I agree with you. I think the rules are too favorable to the offense. They make it too easy. This rule should remain. In addition the one that bugs me is the "ground can't cause a fumble" rule. Why can't it? I think these offensive players should have to be able to take a hit, fall to the ground and hang on to the fricking ball. Should be part of completing the play as a ball carrier or receiver. If you can't hang onto the ball when you hit the ground, you lose it. Fumble. That would be the rule if it was up to me.

  7. #147
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    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I agree with you. I think the rules are too favorable to the offense. They make it too easy. This rule should remain. In addition the one that bugs me is the "ground can't cause a fumble" rule. Why can't it? I think these offensive players should have to be able to take a hit, fall to the ground and hang on to the fricking ball. Should be part of completing the play as a ball carrier or receiver. If you can't hang onto the ball when you hit the ground, you lose it. Fumble. That would be the rule if it was up to me.
    I think there are a lot of good arguments to be made that things are too easy for offenses now (I agree there). That isn't a good argument in favor of a bad rule that favors the defense. Fix this rule, which rarely comes into play anyway so it isn't some grand leveling factor for the defense, and find other rules to tweak to balance out the offense and defense that actually make sense. Of course, the league isn't going to want to reduce scoring, as the genie is kind of out of the bottle as far as offenses putting up megapoints and I don't think we're ever going back, but that is a whole other conversation (not saying I think it is a positive development).

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I think the NFL is trying to make that true, but I don't think it is true.
    Exactly, and that's the crux of my dislike for him (more so than the Chiefs in general) right now. Stop trying to make fetch happen, as my 25 year old daughter would say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    It is really remarkable what he has done in his career, and what he is still doing now, and I wish he would stop. Honestly his play this year is a little reminiscent of Manning's final years (post surgery). His balls are still a little tighter than Peyton's were at the end, but they both kind of struggled to push the ball downfield at the end and won by being extremely cerebral and being able to pick apart defenses and make all the right throws.
    This isn't a good comparison at all, and I'm going to assume you haven't really followed the Bucs this year. Living in Florida I get to watch each game, and have done so this year, closely monitoring Brady's arm strength and accuracy. Because it's Arians' offense, Tom has thrown more deep balls this year than I can ever remember him throwing in New England in over a decade. And when he misses, it's almost always long - not short. Right now he is nothing like old Peyton Manning or old Drew Breese. Brady still has a ton of arm strength. The only thing I've seen decline in him is some accuracy, but that's been going on for a few years now. But it's definitely not true that he's been unable to push the ball downfield and that he relies solely on dinks and such. Not at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I have to strongly disagree with your Peyton Manning comparison. Manning, in his final couple of seasons, was an embarrassment compared to Brady right now.

    Though Brady wasn’t quite as sharp yesterday against New Orleans, he was throwing absolute lasers the week before against the Redskins. Perhaps you missed that game, I don’t know.
    Correct. He has plenty of strength left in his arm. His mind is as sharp as ever. And his desire to win hasn't subsided in the least. If anything prevents Tom from competing at a high level in the next year or two, my guess is it would be his legs way before it would be his arm.

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    Exactly, and that's the crux of my dislike for him (more so than the Chiefs in general) right now. Stop trying to make fetch happen, as my 25 year old daughter would say.




    This isn't a good comparison at all, and I'm going to assume you haven't really followed the Bucs this year. Living in Florida I get to watch each game, and have done so this year, closely monitoring Brady's arm strength and accuracy. Because it's Arians' offense, Tom has thrown more deep balls this year than I can ever remember him throwing in New England in over a decade. And when he misses, it's almost always long - not short. Right now he is nothing like old Peyton Manning or old Drew Breese. Brady still has a ton of arm strength. The only thing I've seen decline in him is some accuracy, but that's been going on for a few years now. But it's definitely not true that he's been unable to push the ball downfield and that he relies solely on dinks and such. Not at all.




    Correct. He has plenty of strength left in his arm. His mind is as sharp as ever. And his desire to win hasn't subsided in the least. If anything prevents Tom from competing at a high level in the next year or two, my guess is it would be his legs way before it would be his arm.
    Maybe the lack of arm strength had something to do with playing home games in NE. The weather in Tampa is much better and rumor has it that a new stadium with a retractable roof is on the way. So, he'll have at least one more year to play in warm weather for home games, @ Carolina,@ Atlanta and @NO. That's some nice weather for an older QB to play in. Not so much in the AFC East with the exception of Miami.
    Last edited by jv001; 01-19-2021 at 03:47 PM. Reason: meant afc east not nfc

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDukie View Post
    Exactly, and that's the crux of my dislike for him (more so than the Chiefs in general) right now. Stop trying to make fetch happen, as my 25 year old daughter would say.
    Yeah, medical advice says that if your children haven't learned how to fetch by 18, they never will.
    basketball is back, baby!

  11. #151
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Tom Brady had a 4 game stretch this year where he was 0-19 with 3 picks on deep balls. If folks want to pretend he hasn't lost something with his ability to throw deep I guess I can't help you.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Tom Brady had a 4 game stretch this year where he was 0-19 with 3 picks on deep balls. If folks want to pretend he hasn't lost something with his ability to throw deep I guess I can't help you.
    Doubt the GOAT at your own peril.

  13. #153
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Francisco
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Tom Brady had a 4 game stretch this year where he was 0-19 with 3 picks on deep balls. If folks want to pretend he hasn't lost something with his ability to throw deep I guess I can't help you.
    Maybe he has ... but it appears that he hasn't lost his (more important) ability to win games.

  14. #154
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    Nov 2007
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    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    Maybe he has ... but it appears that he hasn't lost his (more important) ability to win games.
    Something I agree with, and made perfectly clear when I made the original point about his ability to throw deep declining. The stats don't lie, he was bad downfield this year, despite having better downfield weapons than he's had since Moss. He is also still capable of playing at an elite level in the short and mid range game, and clearly that is enough.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Something I agree with, and made perfectly clear when I made the original point about his ability to throw deep declining. The stats don't lie, he was bad downfield this year, despite having better downfield weapons than he's had since Moss. He is also still capable of playing at an elite level in the short and mid range game, and clearly that is enough.
    Have you watched every Bucs game this year? Well I have. Brady was very bad early on with the long throws because he and his receivers were just learning each other. He’s certainly gotten better with the deep ball, and he has not lost any arm with those passes. I’m telling you straight up he hasn’t lost his ability to throw the deep ones.

    But believe what you want.

  16. #156
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Something I agree with, and made perfectly clear when I made the original point about his ability to throw deep declining. The stats don't lie, he was bad downfield this year, despite having better downfield weapons than he's had since Moss. He is also still capable of playing at an elite level in the short and mid range game, and clearly that is enough.
    Hey Acymetric, this one’s for you!!

    A quarterback who is known as a risk taker will always keep a defense honest. That defense has to plan around the deep shots, leaving safeties back and loading the box at a lower rate.

    With that in mind which quarterbacks have thrown deep the most so far in the 2020 season?

    Number of Throws
    Tom Brady 83
    Matt Ryan 75
    Aaron Rodgers 72
    Patrick Mahomes 66
    Josh Allen 65
    Ben Roethlisberger 65
    Drew Lock 64
    Matthew Stafford 62

    Buccaneers quarterback Tom Brady ends the year as the league-leader in deep passes attempted.

    Overall:

    Points Earned is one way to determine which quarterbacks have made the largest positive impact while throwing the deep ball. The core assumption of passing Points Earned is that each throw has a certain expected outcome based on information like the route, the depth, and the coverage. From that point, the passer and receiver split responsibility for how well they perform above that expectation. Throwing off-target passes and deserved interceptions (caught or not) will bury a signal-caller, while he will be rewarded for leading receivers to more yards after catch and making something out of a broken pocket.

    This following stat shows which quarterback has helped his team win the most when throwing the deep ball:

    Rank Player Points Earned
    1 Aaron Rodgers 46.5
    2 Tom Brady 28.9
    3 Derek Carr 28.4
    4 Deshaun Watson 26.2
    5 Matthew Stafford 20.6
    6 Kyler Murray 20
    7 Daniel Jones 19.9
    8 Russell Wilson 18.9
    9 Patrick Mahomes 18.8
    10 Justin Herbert 13.5

  17. #157
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    St. Louis
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    I agree with you. I think the rules are too favorable to the offense. They make it too easy. This rule should remain. In addition the one that bugs me is the "ground can't cause a fumble" rule. Why can't it? I think these offensive players should have to be able to take a hit, fall to the ground and hang on to the fricking ball. Should be part of completing the play as a ball carrier or receiver. If you can't hang onto the ball when you hit the ground, you lose it. Fumble. That would be the rule if it was up to me.
    This. The current rules favor the passing game. Everybody says Brady (or Brees, or Manning) is the GOAT. Nonsense. If QB's from an earlier age had had the rules and norms now in place, what do you think would be the passing yardage, TD's, etc. of quarterbacks like Unitas? Montana? I understand recent bias, but every five minutes somebody comes along who's the greatest of all time. That's garbage. I'll take Unitas, Montana, Starr, Staubach, against any of the current faves.

  18. #158
    I have been very impressed with Buffalo, but Kansas City with Mahomes has won 24 of its last 25 games.

    Heart says the Bills; head says the Chiefs.

    Thoughts ?

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by rasputin View Post
    This. The current rules favor the passing game. Everybody says Brady (or Brees, or Manning) is the GOAT. Nonsense. If QB's from an earlier age had had the rules and norms now in place, what do you think would be the passing yardage, TD's, etc. of quarterbacks like Unitas? Montana? I understand recent bias, but every five minutes somebody comes along who's the greatest of all time. That's garbage. I'll take Unitas, Montana, Starr, Staubach, against any of the current faves.
    A LOT more than the rules would need to be different in order for those older guys to have any level of success in the game today. Everyone's bigger, stronger, faster, smarter; schemes are more complex. No reason to believe they could compete like the did in the smokes and beer days.

  20. #160
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    A LOT more than the rules would need to be different in order for those older guys to have any level of success in the game today. Everyone's bigger, stronger, faster, smarter; schemes are more complex. No reason to believe they could compete like the did in the smokes and beer days.
    Montana, for one, is as good or better than any of the quarterbacks currently playing the game, imo.

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