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  1. #521
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Lots has been made in the media of Harden arriving this season in Houston our of shape. It may have been part of Harden trying to tip their hand with a trade.
    He’s obviously a world class athlete but at the same time he’s never struck me as one of these guys dedicated to taking care of his body like LBJ, JJ or CP3.

    Maybe he just got lazy for a bit?

  2. #522
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    He’s obviously a world class athlete but at the same time he’s never struck me as one of these guys dedicated to taking care of his body like LBJ, JJ or CP3.

    Maybe he just got lazy for a bit?
    James Soften?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by bundabergdevil View Post
    He’s obviously a world class athlete but at the same time he’s never struck me as one of these guys dedicated to taking care of his body like LBJ, JJ or CP3.

    Maybe he just got lazy for a bit?
    After all the crap I get for defending Kyrie, I certainly won't attempt to take Harden's side. His brand of basketball makes me ill.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    After all the crap I get for defending Kyrie, I certainly won't attempt to take Harden's side. His brand of basketball makes me ill.
    I'm right there with you, Mtn.Devil.

  5. #525
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    After all the crap I get for defending Kyrie, I certainly won't attempt to take Harden's side. His brand of basketball makes me ill.
    A lot of people give you crap for that? Seems like we just got a couple Kyrie axe-grinders. It's fine; there are some famous people whose personality and life choices just really rub the people in the stands of life the wrong way. Someone aggravated me so much I once posted over 1,800 times in a single thread. Not here, though. It was on the, uh, EBR board. Yeah, that's the ticket.

  6. #526
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, lets look at a few drafts to see how often those mid-late first round picks turn into useful players. I am not going to bother with the 2018, 19, or 20 drafts as it is too soon to have a great sense of how guys will turn out. I'm going to start with the #16 pick, exactly where we move from the first half to the second half of the first round.

    2017 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, and Josh Hart. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    2016 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 3 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Caris Levert, Pascal Siakam, and Djounte Murray. 3 out of 15 is 20%

    2015 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 7 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Bobby Portis, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Tyus Jones, Larry Nance Jr, and Kevon Looney. 7 out of 15 is 46%

    2014 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Rodney Hood, Clint Capella, Bogdan Bogdanovic, and Kyle Anderson. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    If someone wants to go back and argue with me about whether there should be one or 2 more players added to the list each season, feel free. I just don't see any names I left off who would be meaningful contributors on a playoff team.

    So, it seems somewhere around 40%, maybe less, of picks made in the back half of the first round turn into useful players. So, the trade where New Orleans got 2 picks and 2 pick swaps (neither of the pick swaps are going to convey unless Giannis quits basketball) for Jrue Holiday means New Orleans got a 64% chance of getting a useful player. Seeing as Jrue was already a useful player, I see this as a pretty lousy deal.

    Now, if these picks somehow turn into ones in the top half of the first round, that changes the calculus greatly. In 2014, I think 11 of the first 15 picks are useful players. In 2015 it is 10 out of 15. 2016 is 8 out of 15. 2017 is also 8 out of 15.
    Nice analysis. Also note that these picks are appreciating assets in that they will get more valuable as they get closer, so the Pels could potentially trade them later for a vet as they get closer to their “window”. Holiday due to age will be a depreciating asset so they have both invested in the future and bought flexibility.

  7. #527
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    Tatum update


  8. #528
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    Thank goodness he recovered and is coming back tonight.

    Tatum and Brown form one of the best, if not the best, two-way duo in the league. Both of their abilities to execute offensively and defensively is incredible.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  9. #529
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    So, lets look at a few drafts to see how often those mid-late first round picks turn into useful players. I am not going to bother with the 2018, 19, or 20 drafts as it is too soon to have a great sense of how guys will turn out. I'm going to start with the #16 pick, exactly where we move from the first half to the second half of the first round.

    2017 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, and Josh Hart. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    2016 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 3 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Caris Levert, Pascal Siakam, and Djounte Murray. 3 out of 15 is 20%

    2015 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 7 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Bobby Portis, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Tyus Jones, Larry Nance Jr, and Kevon Looney. 7 out of 15 is 46%

    2014 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Rodney Hood, Clint Capella, Bogdan Bogdanovic, and Kyle Anderson. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    If someone wants to go back and argue with me about whether there should be one or 2 more players added to the list each season, feel free. I just don't see any names I left off who would be meaningful contributors on a playoff team.

    So, it seems somewhere around 40%, maybe less, of picks made in the back half of the first round turn into useful players. So, the trade where New Orleans got 2 picks and 2 pick swaps (neither of the pick swaps are going to convey unless Giannis quits basketball) for Jrue Holiday means New Orleans got a 64% chance of getting a useful player. Seeing as Jrue was already a useful player, I see this as a pretty lousy deal.

    Now, if these picks somehow turn into ones in the top half of the first round, that changes the calculus greatly. In 2014, I think 11 of the first 15 picks are useful players. In 2015 it is 10 out of 15. 2016 is 8 out of 15. 2017 is also 8 out of 15.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Giannis has a player option for the '25-'26 season. Milwaukee needs to win a title over the next few years or else New Orleans will have a great shot at owning Bucks lottery picks in '26 and '27.
    Exactly, you only need the team to have one down year for it to pay off big and we're projecting half a decade in the future (Giannis leaves, Giannis misses time with injury, so on and so forth) and even that doesn't happen it still might pay off if you make good picks in the back half of the draft.

  10. #530
    Nobody's gonna mention that both Zion and Brandon Ingram scored 32 on 16 and 19 FGAs? and that the Pelicans won? Wow, whole buncha slacking going on round here Duke South was joined by JJ who only scored 5 pts.
    Additionally, Kyrie scored 26 on 17 FGAs in the OT win for the Nets. On the other side of the court, Cam Reddish had a wonderful game for ATL, scoring 24 on 17 FGAs.
    In BOS, Tatum scored 25 on 25 FGAs. The only criticism i have of Tatum's game is that he doesn't get to the FT line enough. Semi addd 5 pts.
    Seth had a forgettable game for PHI scoring only 2 pts
    MB3 had an excellent game for SAC, scoring 16 on 14 FGAs and grabbing 12 rebs. Bagley's FT% has fallen off a cliff this year, which is certainly limiting his effectiveness.
    MP2 had a nice dub-dub for DET going for 15 and 12. Rounding out the Duke Midwest roster, Jah and Frank Jackson both added 3 pts.
    Tre Jones, Quinn Cook, Cassius Stanley all got DNP-CDs, and Big Vern got sent to the Hornets G-league team.

  11. #531
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    After all the crap I get for defending Kyrie, I certainly won't attempt to take Harden's side. His brand of basketball makes me ill.
    Harden deserves a lot of credit for being one of the smartest players in the game. He's figured out the "cheat codes" and fully maximizes those. His skill level (both in normal basketball sense and in the "figuring out a way to game the system sense") is off the charts.

    That said, I agree with you about watching him play. It's not aesthetically pleasing at all, even if it is effective.

  12. #532
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by DukieInBrasil View Post
    Additionally, Kyrie scored 26 on 17 FGAs in the OT win for the Nets. On the other side of the court, Cam Reddish had a wonderful game for ATL, scoring 24 on 17 FGAs.
    Seth had a forgettable game for PHI scoring only 2 pts
    MP2 had a nice dub-dub for DET going for 15 and 12. Rounding out the Duke Midwest roster, Jah and Frank Jackson both added 3 pts.
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Harden deserves a lot of credit for being one of the smartest players in the game. He's figured out the "cheat codes" and fully maximizes those. His skill level (both in normal basketball sense and in the "figuring out a way to game the system sense") is off the charts.

    That said, I agree with you about watching him play. It's not aesthetically pleasing at all, even if it is effective.
    I watched most of the 4th quarter of the Nets v Hawks game. First off, if Cam Reddish had been this kind of player at Duke, we probably win the title. The staff never quite figured out how to get him going with all of the other big personalities and games on that team. He's still a below 30% 3 point shooter, but he plays with a different level of confidence than he did at Duke, and he can actually drive without turning it over. Case in point, he hit the game tying drive to send the game to OT while being defended by KD, just took it right at him.

    As for Harden, I am having a lot of fun watching Steve Nash try and meld these talents. It's kind of an amazing thing to see Harden leading a break with KD and Kyrie filling the lanes. In crunch time of this tight game, they turn to Harden to run point because he's such a great playmaker. Guard him straight up and he's got the advantage...bring help and who are you helping off? The obvious candidate, Jeff Green, was therefore feasting because they often wound up trying to hide Trae Young on him. They aren't guarding anyone, but Harden in this playmaker/PG role is very fun on this team.

    As to the other two stat lines I highlighted, it just shows that stats are not always the story. Despite Seth's pedestrian line, he was on the floor during crunch time of a potential Finals preview - what an amazing rise he has had. As for MP2, sadly the widespread takeaway on his evening was the viscous postering he received from Andre Drummond.

  13. #533
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rent free in tarheels’ heads
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Dat View Post
    I watched most of the 4th quarter of the Nets v Hawks game. First off, if Cam Reddish had been this kind of player at Duke, we probably win the title. The staff never quite figured out how to get him going with all of the other big personalities and games on that team. He's still a below 30% 3 point shooter, but he plays with a different level of confidence than he did at Duke, and he can actually drive without turning it over. Case in point, he hit the game tying drive to send the game to OT while being defended by KD, just took it right at him.

    As for Harden, I am having a lot of fun watching Steve Nash try and meld these talents. It's kind of an amazing thing to see Harden leading a break with KD and Kyrie filling the lanes. In crunch time of this tight game, they turn to Harden to run point because he's such a great playmaker. Guard him straight up and he's got the advantage...bring help and who are you helping off? The obvious candidate, Jeff Green, was therefore feasting because they often wound up trying to hide Trae Young on him. They aren't guarding anyone, but Harden in this playmaker/PG role is very fun on this team.

    As to the other two stat lines I highlighted, it just shows that stats are not always the story. Despite Seth's pedestrian line, he was on the floor during crunch time of a potential Finals preview - what an amazing rise he has had. As for MP2, sadly the widespread takeaway on his evening was the viscous postering he received from Andre Drummond.
    Let’s remember that it was revealed after the season that Cam was dealing with an injury (I believe abdominal) all season long while at Duke. Nothing against you BD. I just wish we’d stop blaming coaches/program for not using players correctly.
    “Coach said no 3s.” - Zion on The Block

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Let’s remember that it was revealed after the season that Cam was dealing with an injury (I believe abdominal) all season long while at Duke. Nothing against you BD. I just wish we’d stop blaming coaches/program for not using players correctly.
    And Cam is still shooting just 37% overall and 29% from 3 for the year. He definitely shows flashes, including last night, and is a plus player on defense, but he's also still needs to get much more consistent shooting.

  15. #535
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    Let’s remember that it was revealed after the season that Cam was dealing with an injury (I believe abdominal) all season long while at Duke. Nothing against you BD. I just wish we’d stop blaming coaches/program for not using players correctly.
    I'm not doctor or an exercise physiologist.I don't remember the news about Cam having an injury. My amateur opinion is that he wasn't ready for big time college basketball, couldn't handle the ball and couldn't shoot under pressure.

    Nothing against the kid but he was a major disappointment for Duke.

  16. #536
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    I'm not doctor or an exercise physiologist.I don't remember the news about Cam having an injury. My amateur opinion is that he wasn't ready for big time college basketball, couldn't handle the ball and couldn't shoot under pressure.

    Nothing against the kid but he was a major disappointment for Duke.
    I thought he showed improvement through the season -- but starting 35 out of 36 and averaging 13.5 PPG on a team with Zion and RJ seems OK to me for a freshman.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  17. #537
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rent free in tarheels’ heads
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    I'm not doctor or an exercise physiologist.I don't remember the news about Cam having an injury. My amateur opinion is that he wasn't ready for big time college basketball, couldn't handle the ball and couldn't shoot under pressure.

    Nothing against the kid but he was a major disappointment for Duke.
    That’s a pretty harsh assessment. But to each his own. Cam played through broken ribs and a toe injury of some kind. And he had core muscle surgery (whatever that is) before the NBA draft.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/therook...re-muscle/amp/
    “Coach said no 3s.” - Zion on The Block

  18. #538
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    I'm not doctor or an exercise physiologist.I don't remember the news about Cam having an injury. My amateur opinion is that he wasn't ready for big time college basketball, couldn't handle the ball and couldn't shoot under pressure.

    Nothing against the kid but he was a major disappointment for Duke.
    Down 23 with 9 minutes remaining.

    https://youtu.be/OydPe7ZtdRY
    Kyle gets BUCKETS!
    https://youtu.be/NJWPASQZqLc

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I thought he showed improvement through the season -- but starting 35 out of 36 and averaging 13.5 PPG on a team with Zion and RJ seems OK to me for a freshman.
    Cam was really good. Hit that Clutch 3 in that mega comeback against Louisville and a few when needed against UCF for that other insane comeback. Played well in the ACC tourney. Good person in general. I mean a freshman starting with Zion and RJ — exactly. To me he met expectations. And as a freshman. Meanwhile the rest of the shooters struggled so he was carrying extra expectations. I think the outcome of that season leaves major what-if disappointments all around, but I don’t see how that translates to one player, especially one who was chronically injured. I just remember being on the road and ducking into a bar to watch what was the most perfect game when RJ, Zion and Cam played flawlessly running on all cylinders and dismantled a top Kentucky team on national TV. They were incredible. One of the best performances of any Duke era. And everyone thought ... no one can beat this team. That’s how I choose to remember that team.

    Cam is going to continue to grow into a very good pro.

  20. #540
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Rosenrosen View Post
    That’s a pretty harsh assessment. But to each his own. Cam played through broken ribs and a toe injury of some kind. And he had core muscle surgery (whatever that is) before the NBA draft.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/therook...re-muscle/amp/
    It looks like I forgot or ignored a few pertinent facts. Thanks.

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