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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    The Nets coaching staff disagrees. According to Nash:

    ďWe had breakdowns all over the place,Ē Nash said. ďWeíve got a lot of work to do. We know that. Weíve got to improve with our communication, improve with getting guys into better condition. We feel positive that we can improve defensively, but itís got to be a priority for us.Ē

    Also, my feeling is that if an opposing player is hot, (1) hopefully you have a great defensive player who can deny him the ball, and (2) players can get hot more easily if you play bad defense on them earlier in the game, as its gets them into a rhythm.
    You completely missed my point. I said I didnít see the game until OT, and so I acknowledged that the defense may very well have been bad the entire time. Iím certainly not going to argue with Nash about that. But the fact is Sexton hadnít hit a 3 the entire game until the last second of the first OT. And then he went crazy in the second OT where he couldnít miss. So my point stands that a player got super hot - not over the course of the game because of poor defense - but simply because those things happen all the time in the NBA.

    Both things can be true at the same time. The Nets could have played really bad defense over the entirety of the game, and Sexton could and did get very hot in the second overtime and carried Cleveland to victory. There is no contradiction between those two things.

  2. #502
    Alert-Ingram with 16...in the first 8.5 mins.

  3. #503
    Join Date
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    Forest Hills, NY
    RJ with a career high of 28 points in the Knicksí beating of the Warriors last night.

  4. #504
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by robed deity View Post
    Alert-Ingram with 16...in the first 8.5 mins.
    Man the Pelicans can be fun but frustrating to watch. Ingram with 16 early finishes with only 23. Zion with 27. Both took 14 shots. Meanwhile Lonzo takes 15 shots, hits only 6 (which is better than the previous game) and finishes with 14. Stephen Adams at times look like a great defense/rebounding guy (pulled 16 boards, 6 offensive). JJ suddenly seems very ineffective. Etc etc. Doesn't matter about the individuals really, they just can't seem to get it together. They seem to have lots of good pieces (although Lonzo really can't shoot) but they can't put it all together. I think they have lost 7 of 8.

    A big piece of that IMHO is BI and Zion. They are both great. But it seems like they do best when only 1 of them is on the court. In the first game against the Jazz this week, Zion was running high pick and rolls with Bledsoe and others (not BI) that seemed to work well. Seems to me that those two could run that together and be amazing. It does seem like BI decides that he's going to shoot no matter what a good bit. When he's on, it's great (like the first 8.5 minutes last night), when he's not it's frustrating. Zion attacked a lot but I see him getting better about passing to shooters as well (although their shooters have not been good this year).

    There's more to it and there are much better analysts on than me on this board...I just think they need to play better team ball on both ends of the floor. It's going to be tough to make the playoffs (queue Jim Mora) if they don't pick it up soon.

  5. #505
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    Bethesda, MD
    Quote Originally Posted by duke74 View Post
    RJ with a career high of 28 points in the Knicksí beating of the Warriors last night.
    Having previously whined about his dreadful 3-point shooting, I have to admit that he might become a really good player without that skill...and if he does get better at the 3...he's going to a hell of a player.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Man the Pelicans can be fun but frustrating to watch. Ingram with 16 early finishes with only 23. Zion with 27. Both took 14 shots. Meanwhile Lonzo takes 15 shots, hits only 6 (which is better than the previous game) and finishes with 14. Stephen Adams at times look like a great defense/rebounding guy (pulled 16 boards, 6 offensive). JJ suddenly seems very ineffective. Etc etc. Doesn't matter about the individuals really, they just can't seem to get it together. They seem to have lots of good pieces (although Lonzo really can't shoot) but they can't put it all together. I think they have lost 7 of 8.

    A big piece of that IMHO is BI and Zion. They are both great. But it seems like they do best when only 1 of them is on the court. In the first game against the Jazz this week, Zion was running high pick and rolls with Bledsoe and others (not BI) that seemed to work well. Seems to me that those two could run that together and be amazing. It does seem like BI decides that he's going to shoot no matter what a good bit. When he's on, it's great (like the first 8.5 minutes last night), when he's not it's frustrating. Zion attacked a lot but I see him getting better about passing to shooters as well (although their shooters have not been good this year).

    There's more to it and there are much better analysts on than me on this board...I just think they need to play better team ball on both ends of the floor. It's going to be tough to make the playoffs (queue Jim Mora) if they don't pick it up soon.
    They should have made some trades but never traded away Jrue Holiday. I think BI and Zion should have some overlap but BI is always on rapid-fire and looking for his shot first, ever since being traded from the Lakers (you're right). He's been trying to get himself into super star status -- which is good -- I don't blame him. But he is well... a ball hog. Pelicans are good. But they're far from good enough to edge out the top tier teams and even Utah unless they start getting more creative. Ever notice they hardly run pick n roll? BI would be much more effective if he passed more with the expectation the ball would come back to him while he moved better without the ball. He'd get a great rythym and be more effective in his shooting. If he wants to be like Tatum or Durant (I'm projecting) -- they do shoot first a lot -- but Durant actually moves well and actively passes and gets rewarded with relatively open jumpers -- which means he's going to have a better shooting %. If BI and Zion got creative and made more plays off each other, they could really free up more space and be a dynamic duo. I wasn't a fan of their coach (who honestly shunned JJ starting out but got better), but I have to give Stan credit for having the team work with Zion in the paint. He's not tired as much. He can make quicker decisions and moves and is much more effective than if he's given a ball in isolation on the perimeter and has to make 1 on 1 moves and build up a head of steam to get past the perimeter defender. That being said, Zion needs to be free to get hi post balls and step out for 3s from time to time -- then BI can work inside too. There's no reason the pair can't be more dynamic and help each other thrive (rather than get in the boring old NBA mode of I got to take my shot no matter how ridiculous).

  7. #507
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by AZLA View Post
    They should have made some trades but never traded away Jrue Holiday.
    IMO, there are zero GMs that wouldn't have traded away 30-yr-old Holiday for control of the Bucks 1st-rounders in '24, '25, '26, and '27. It was a universally lauded trade (which I know doesn't mean it *has* to be a good trade, but still). They key is that Zion is only 20 years old and Brandon is 23, and so Holiday isn't "on their timeline" to use the popular phrase in NBA transactions these days; when Zion and Brandon are ready to compete for championships, Holiday will be too old.

    There *are* things to criticize. Zion would be much better playing next to a stretch-5 rather than traditional bigs; maybe use some of that treasure chest to pursue Myles Turner if the Pacers are still interested in trading him. And I know that Steven Adams has helped their defense a lot, but even with him on the roster, New Orleans still only ranks 21st in schedule-adjusted D. The focus on defense has failed, in other words. Jaxson Hayes looks like a bust.

    Anyway, getting a stretch-5 that also plays D should be New Orleans' #1 goal, imo, because it would help Zion so much. Giannis soared to MVP levels when he began playing with Brook Lopez, for example. And Zion and Giannis are similar players in that they can be unstoppable around the basket when given proper spacing.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    IMO, there are zero GMs that wouldn't have traded away 30-yr-old Holiday for control of the Bucks 1st-rounders in '24, '25, '26, and '27. It was a universally lauded trade (which I know doesn't mean it *has* to be a good trade, but still). They key is that Zion is only 20 years old and Brandon is 23, and so Holiday isn't "on their timeline" to use the popular phrase in NBA transactions these days; when Zion and Brandon are ready to compete for championships, Holiday will be too old.

    There *are* things to criticize. Zion would be much better playing next to a stretch-5 rather than traditional bigs; maybe use some of that treasure chest to pursue Myles Turner if the Pacers are still interested in trading him. And I know that Steven Adams has helped their defense a lot, but even with him on the roster, New Orleans still only ranks 21st in schedule-adjusted D. The focus on defense has failed, in other words. Jaxson Hayes looks like a bust.

    Anyway, getting a stretch-5 that also plays D should be New Orleans' #1 goal, imo, because it would help Zion so much. Giannis soared to MVP levels when he began playing with Brook Lopez, for example. And Zion and Giannis are similar players in that they can be unstoppable around the basket when given proper spacing.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. The issue is that they gave Adams a new contract. He and Zion just don't play well together offensively. Zion needs room to work and Adams (and his defender) clog up the middle. I read somewhere that Zion is the most blocked player in the league. Of course that has to do with all of the short shots but also having to shoot over his defender and Adams' defender.

    I have been really disappointed with the defensive effort of the entire team but most especially Zion. The guys just doesn't seem that interested in playing defense right now. You would think that Bledsoe and Ball would make for an incredible defensive backcourt, but that hasn't been the case. Speaking of Bledsoe and Ball, they are awful on offense.

    BI is really, really good. I almost think that they should let him run the point. His passing skills are better than people think but, yes, he does look for his own shot most of the time.

    JJ has struggled because they really don't run any sets for him and if he's in there with Alexander-Walker or Hart, those guys are looking for their own shots. It seems to me that Zion, BI and JJ would all benefit from being in a line-up together.

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    Man the Pelicans can be fun but frustrating to watch. Ingram with 16 early finishes with only 23. Zion with 27. Both took 14 shots. Meanwhile Lonzo takes 15 shots, hits only 6 (which is better than the previous game) and finishes with 14. Stephen Adams at times look like a great defense/rebounding guy (pulled 16 boards, 6 offensive). JJ suddenly seems very ineffective. Etc etc. Doesn't matter about the individuals really, they just can't seem to get it together. They seem to have lots of good pieces (although Lonzo really can't shoot) but they can't put it all together. I think they have lost 7 of 8.

    A big piece of that IMHO is BI and Zion. They are both great. But it seems like they do best when only 1 of them is on the court. In the first game against the Jazz this week, Zion was running high pick and rolls with Bledsoe and others (not BI) that seemed to work well. Seems to me that those two could run that together and be amazing. It does seem like BI decides that he's going to shoot no matter what a good bit. When he's on, it's great (like the first 8.5 minutes last night), when he's not it's frustrating. Zion attacked a lot but I see him getting better about passing to shooters as well (although their shooters have not been good this year).

    There's more to it and there are much better analysts on than me on this board...I just think they need to play better team ball on both ends of the floor. It's going to be tough to make the playoffs (queue Jim Mora) if they don't pick it up soon.
    Yeah, like many, they are my adopted NBA team. And their offensive struggles are real. But they are even worse defensively. I was optimistic Stan could help in that area, but not so far.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    IMO, there are zero GMs that wouldn't have traded away 30-yr-old Holiday for control of the Bucks 1st-rounders in '24, '25, '26, and '27. It was a universally lauded trade (which I know doesn't mean it *has* to be a good trade, but still). They key is that Zion is only 20 years old and Brandon is 23, and so Holiday isn't "on their timeline" to use the popular phrase in NBA transactions these days; when Zion and Brandon are ready to compete for championships, Holiday will be too old.

    There *are* things to criticize. Zion would be much better playing next to a stretch-5 rather than traditional bigs; maybe use some of that treasure chest to pursue Myles Turner if the Pacers are still interested in trading him. And I know that Steven Adams has helped their defense a lot, but even with him on the roster, New Orleans still only ranks 21st in schedule-adjusted D. The focus on defense has failed, in other words. Jaxson Hayes looks like a bust.

    Anyway, getting a stretch-5 that also plays D should be New Orleans' #1 goal, imo, because it would help Zion so much. Giannis soared to MVP levels when he began playing with Brook Lopez, for example. And Zion and Giannis are similar players in that they can be unstoppable around the basket when given proper spacing.

    Good points. But seasoned/aging PGs are and have been trending with the last 5 champs and are coveted. Rondo. Kyle. Steph. So I don't quite follow the logic, if winning (making more revenue) is the goal. Even Chris Paul (ugh) got a ridiculous deal at 35 with Phoenix when they had Booker doing just well. Bucks want a championship and are poised to do it so they go the best part of that trade and opportunity to do it with Jrue. Pelicans shipped off talent for the promise of future talent while the young'ns hopefully get better. So they're telling the team -- you guys aren't that good now but might be when you grow up -- so we're going to ship off the best PG cuz he's older, better and more seasoned -- cuz you guys aren't ready for it. Instead, we're going to ship him to the Bucks where he has a good shot of winning a championship. And we'll hope for a better draft pick in the future. just an opinion, but this is where GMs overthink what is simple -- put the best team on the floor now and win.

  11. #511
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    IMO, there are zero GMs that wouldn't have traded away 30-yr-old Holiday for control of the Bucks 1st-rounders in '24, '25, '26, and '27. It was a universally lauded trade (which I know doesn't mean it *has* to be a good trade, but still).
    The question is whether the Bucks will still be one of the best teams in the league at that point. If they are, then those picks are going to be late first-rounders and of somewhat limited value. Seeing as Giannis is signed through 2026 (and will only be 30 at that point), it is hard to see any of these picks being all that great. Two of those are pick swaps that are not likely to be convey anyway.

    Still, it is all part of the Pels loading up on picks to complement Zion and Ingram. They also have some draft assets coming their way from the Lakers (another team that seems likely to be picking late, making the value of the picks somewhat lessened). The Pels are going to have a ton of swings in the first round over the next 4 years as they seek players to enhance their young roster. Many will be misses, but if they hit a bit on a few of them, this team could be really primed for excellence around 2025 or so.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  12. #512
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    I think people have gone too far in devaluing mid-late 1st round picks. No, you aren't necessarily getting superstars at that point, but if you already have a star (or can bring one in via trade or free agency) those picks are perfectly capable of getting you the quality complimentary guys you need to field a winning team.

  13. #513
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    I think people have gone too far in devaluing mid-late 1st round picks. No, you aren't necessarily getting superstars at that point, but if you already have a star (or can bring one in via trade or free agency) those picks are perfectly capable of getting you the quality complimentary guys you need to field a winning team.
    So, lets look at a few drafts to see how often those mid-late first round picks turn into useful players. I am not going to bother with the 2018, 19, or 20 drafts as it is too soon to have a great sense of how guys will turn out. I'm going to start with the #16 pick, exactly where we move from the first half to the second half of the first round.

    2017 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- John Collins, Jarrett Allen, OG Anunoby, Kyle Kuzma, Derrick White, and Josh Hart. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    2016 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 3 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Caris Levert, Pascal Siakam, and Djounte Murray. 3 out of 15 is 20%

    2015 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 7 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Bobby Portis, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Tyus Jones, Larry Nance Jr, and Kevon Looney. 7 out of 15 is 46%

    2014 - of the 15 picks in the back half of the first round, there are 6 players who seem "useful" on a high quality NBA team -- Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Rodney Hood, Clint Capella, Bogdan Bogdanovic, and Kyle Anderson. 6 out of 15 is 40%

    If someone wants to go back and argue with me about whether there should be one or 2 more players added to the list each season, feel free. I just don't see any names I left off who would be meaningful contributors on a playoff team.

    So, it seems somewhere around 40%, maybe less, of picks made in the back half of the first round turn into useful players. So, the trade where New Orleans got 2 picks and 2 pick swaps (neither of the pick swaps are going to convey unless Giannis quits basketball) for Jrue Holiday means New Orleans got a 64% chance of getting a useful player. Seeing as Jrue was already a useful player, I see this as a pretty lousy deal.

    Now, if these picks somehow turn into ones in the top half of the first round, that changes the calculus greatly. In 2014, I think 11 of the first 15 picks are useful players. In 2015 it is 10 out of 15. 2016 is 8 out of 15. 2017 is also 8 out of 15.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  14. #514
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    The question is whether the Bucks will still be one of the best teams in the league at that point. If they are, then those picks are going to be late first-rounders and of somewhat limited value. Seeing as Giannis is signed through 2026 (and will only be 30 at that point), it is hard to see any of these picks being all that great. Two of those are pick swaps that are not likely to be convey anyway.
    Giannis has a player option for the '25-'26 season. Milwaukee needs to win a title over the next few years or else New Orleans will have a great shot at owning Bucks lottery picks in '26 and '27.

  15. #515
    Cleveland whips the Nets again. No KD tonight (resting). 35 points on 10/14 shooting from the two former Nets, Prince and Allen. They showed their former team why they made a mistake in trading them away. The Cavs score 70 points in the paint! Brooklyn simply doesn’t have an inside presence defensively, on top of Kyrie and Harden being below par on that side of the ball themselves.

    If this two game sweep doesn’t wake these guys up I don’t think anything will. I so don’t envy Steve Nash. In his post game presser Nash flat out says the effort is not there defensively. It’s not just the schematics of the defense, it’s the effort. They are last in the league at getting 50/50 balls.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by nmduke2001 View Post
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. The issue is that they gave Adams a new contract. He and Zion just don't play well together offensively. Zion needs room to work and Adams (and his defender) clog up the middle. I read somewhere that Zion is the most blocked player in the league. Of course that has to do with all of the short shots but also having to shoot over his defender and Adams' defender.

    I have been really disappointed with the defensive effort of the entire team but most especially Zion. The guys just doesn't seem that interested in playing defense right now. You would think that Bledsoe and Ball would make for an incredible defensive backcourt, but that hasn't been the case. Speaking of Bledsoe and Ball, they are awful on offense.

    BI is really, really good. I almost think that they should let him run the point. His passing skills are better than people think but, yes, he does look for his own shot most of the time.

    JJ has struggled because they really don't run any sets for him and if he's in there with Alexander-Walker or Hart, those guys are looking for their own shots. It seems to me that Zion, BI and JJ would all benefit from being in a line-up together.
    Bingo on every bit of this. Zion is flat out not giving the effort on defense that he did when he was at Duke. And I don’t think BI is taking too many shots. I agree it would be a good thing to let him run point forward. Also, I’ll say it again – they must trade Lonzo Ball now!

    As for the Holiday/Bledsoe trade, that was a good deal for the Pelicans. No doubt about that. Holiday is a great player, but he’s beginning to rack up the miles. At this point it was best for the Pelicans to get Bledsoe and the picks.

    Their big problem offensively is indeed that Adams and Zion don’t fit well together, and that they need better outside shooting. JJ having a terrible start to the season hasn’t helped at all, but even if he were shooting his average from distance they still need at least one more reliable outside shooter on the team. Ingram has picked it up in that category, but Ball is just horrible. So is Bledsoe. They have to surround Zion with better shooting. Or else Zion is going to have to start hitting 18 footers with regularity. Not holding my breath on that one yet.

  17. #517
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    York, PA
    I haven't watched much of the Pels so take this with a grain of salt. I think Ball needs to go too. He seems to always take his bad 3's at the worst times like the closing minutes of games when every possession is critical. I find myself yelling at the tv "Whyyyyy?!!" as he rises up and clanks one off the rim

  18. #518
    Kyrie made his last 6 shots and scored 18 in the 4th quarter to lead the Nets to hold on against the Heat. Harden, though, had his 2nd straight poor scoring game and looks overweight, and they have been dominated inside the last 2 games. I assume Harden will round into less round form, but I donít know that they have a solution inside.

  19. #519
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    Jun 2009
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    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    Kyrie made his last 6 shots and scored 18 in the 4th quarter to lead the Nets to hold on against the Heat. Harden, though, had his 2nd straight poor scoring game and looks overweight, and they have been dominated inside the last 2 games. I assume Harden will round into less round form, but I donít know that they have a solution inside.
    If it is indeed true that harden is out of shape, Iím wondering why that would be the case. I donít recall him having been injured.

    What would the reason be for an uninjured NBA player to be out of shape during the season? Thatís a major red flag if true.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    If it is indeed true that harden is out of shape, Iím wondering why that would be the case. I donít recall him having been injured.

    What would the reason be for an uninjured NBA player to be out of shape during the season? Thatís a major red flag if true.
    Lots has been made in the media of Harden arriving this season in Houston our of shape. It may have been part of Harden trying to tip their hand with a trade.

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