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  1. #401
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    There is a double standard, but it is actually inverse of that you are suggesting.

    In virtually every business in the real world, if an employee chooses not to come to work for a couple of weeks - without obviously getting approval from their employer – they would be fired. So the double standard is that Kyrie has not lost his job.

    Regarding this notion that he is taking time off to contribute to a cause that he feels deeply involved with - there is no basis to support this proposition. And it does not override an obligation to your employer.

    Like many others here, I am a partner in a firm and I have partners and I have associates. We all work to a common goal, to service the needs of our clients and ultimately generate a profit (which allows us to pay salaries and distributions to partners). We have extreme time deadlines and our clients are demanding – so if one of my colleagues decided simply to not come into the office with no explanation, it puts all of us in a terrible predicament. And if that individual said that they want to continue to get paid, notwithstanding not showing up, that would be even more troubling.

    Kyrie Irving has a platform to address social issues that 99.9% of us do not have. And it can be utilized while working - and I should note that if this absence is solely attributable to this cause, he certainly hasn’t advocated for the cause during this period. At least not to anyone’s knowledge in the public.

    Finally, without trying to beat a dead horse, the individuals posting on this board strike me as being pretty educated and engaged. I have little doubt that many feel strongly about political issues abounding in our current environment. But my speculation is that they still go to work and support their colleagues notwithstanding how strongly they may feel about current causes.

    There is certainly a double standard here. But I am not struggling to understand it – it is clear that superstars get treated far better than average people. But that is not a new story.
    Couple things - 1) We do not know the conversations that have been had between KI and the Nets coaching staff/management. So, we do not know if Kyrie has been given "approval" and to what extent, if any, Nets management is understanding or not understanding. We can infer that Kyrie's decisions are violating various policies and standards based on the fines he's likely to occur. But, ultimately, Nash has said those conversations will be kept private. 2) We do not know (or I do not know) the leave policies for NBA player negotiated by the players union. The union is there to protect players' interests in all sorts of situations, this could be one of them. 3) We cannot infer that KI is not coming "into the office" without explanation; again, we do not know the nature of the conversations between KI and management.

    There's a lot we don't know that you assume or infer in your post. Now, you may be 100% correct, but we don't know based on public reporting. There is also A LOT of media speculation about why KI is or is not there and what he's been doing. It's an odd situation and KI is clearly a challenging personality but we just don't know a lot of things at this point.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    You just keep moving the goalposts on justifying your dislike for Kyrie. It's your right to dislike him. But you can't say "I only know what the media says and it is all negative," because that's not true. And you can't say that "well, if he is working towards social justice, there's no evidence of that," because that also isn't true.

    You might not like him because of his weird comments and posts. Or because his career at Duke was short and disappointing. I don't know. Just stop pretending like he is a bad guy - there's definitive proof that he isn't, and that he is respected highly among his peers. He hasn't been picked up by the law, he doesn't play dirty, he doesn't talk trash.

    He's just really strange.
    I don’t think that anyone is moving the goalpost. But you will not accept a point of view that differs from your own.

    I don’t actually know that Kyrie is strange. I think he is very bright and I believe that his conduct is driven by being very self-centred. And his career at Duke was not at all disappointing - not in my view. He was brilliant but an injury cut it short.

    I thought the world of Kyrie Irving for an extended period of time. But eventually my position changed and the most recent events have flipped it entirely.

    In my view, you are blindly supporting Kyrie Irving notwithstanding arguments and evidence to the contrary. As an example, you cite his attending a zoom call for a prospective district attorney candidate. I don’t view that as evidence that he is fighting for social justice or that he is a good guy. He’s doing nothing more than that which most of us do regularly – advocate for those in positions of power that we think will do the best job possible. Good for him for being involved, but with all due respect - that is not a remarkable achievement. It is a civic responsibility – that many of us do regularly.

    Ultimately, you are welcome to like Kyrie. I’m not here to force you to agree with me - I am only putting forward arguments to support a point of view. But if you feel that I have to acknowledge that he is not a bad guy and is in fact a good person, that is not something you are going to get.

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    I've been waiting for Kyrie to explain his absence to the public - not that he has to - so have held comment. But some of the armchair judgements here about Kyrie's character and sanity have been disappointing.

    There is gossip Kyrie's absence may be due to unhappiness with the Nets. But there are stronger indications his absence is more about the political turmoil going on.

    If I had an employee who took a week off so he or she could contribute more directly to a cause they are deeply passionate about...what's wrong with that??

    There's a double standard applied to basketball players that I'm struggling to understand.

    Where Kyrie could have done better is communicate earlier to his coach why he won't be at work, but perhaps he had informed others in the organization and thought that was sufficient notice. Who really knows? Certainly not us.
    I can think of legit excuses for Kyrie’s behavior - crushing depression for instance - but political activism doesn’t cut it. Especially since that would necessitate letting everyone know what you’re doing and why or what’s the point? Political non-expression seems self-involved and ineffective. Kyrie allegedly left Cleveland to “be the man”. He should understand that Rodman could go MIA for weekend without derailing the train but MJ can’t. Leaders lead.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    I don’t think that anyone is moving the goalpost. But you will not accept a point of view that differs from your own.

    I don’t actually know that Kyrie is strange. I think he is very bright and I believe that his conduct is driven by being very self-centred. And his career at Duke was not at all disappointing - not in my view. He was brilliant but an injury cut it short.

    I thought the world of Kyrie Irving for an extended period of time. But eventually my position changed and the most recent events have flipped it entirely.

    In my view, you are blindly supporting Kyrie Irving notwithstanding arguments and evidence to the contrary. As an example, you cite his attending a zoom call for a prospective district attorney candidate. I don’t view that as evidence that he is fighting for social justice or that he is a good guy. He’s doing nothing more than that which most of us do regularly – advocate for those in positions of power that we think will do the best job possible. Good for him for being involved, but with all due respect - that is not a remarkable achievement. It is a civic responsibility – that many of us do regularly.

    Ultimately, you are welcome to like Kyrie. I’m not here to force you to agree with me - I am only putting forward arguments to support a point of view. But if you feel that I have to acknowledge that he is not a bad guy and is in fact a good person, that is not something you are going to get.
    Last response, and then I will respectfully shut up. Why do you think he is a bad person? I (and others) have listed all manner of links to his positive work off the court. What's your reasoning?

    I'll take my answer off the air.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Last response, and then I will respectfully shut up. Why do you think he is a bad person? I (and others) have listed all manner of links to his positive work off the court. What's your reasoning?

    I'll take my answer off the air.
    Thanks, I will message you this afternoon.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    There is a double standard, but it is actually inverse of that you are suggesting.

    In virtually every business in the real world, if an employee chooses not to come to work for a couple of weeks - without obviously getting approval from their employer – they would be fired. So the double standard is that Kyrie has not lost his job.

    Regarding this notion that he is taking time off to contribute to a cause that he feels deeply involved with - there is no basis to support this proposition. And it does not override an obligation to your employer.

    Like many others here, I am a partner in a firm and I have partners and I have associates. We all work to a common goal, to service the needs of our clients and ultimately generate a profit (which allows us to pay salaries and distributions to partners). We have extreme time deadlines and our clients are demanding – so if one of my colleagues decided simply to not come into the office with no explanation, it puts all of us in a terrible predicament. And if that individual said that they want to continue to get paid, notwithstanding not showing up, that would be even more troubling.

    Kyrie Irving has a platform to address social issues that 99.9% of us do not have. And it can be utilized while working - and I should note that if this absence is solely attributable to this cause, he certainly hasn’t advocated for the cause during this period. At least not to anyone’s knowledge in the public.

    Finally, without trying to beat a dead horse, the individuals posting on this board strike me as being pretty educated and engaged. I have little doubt that many feel strongly about political issues abounding in our current environment. But my speculation is that they still go to work and support their colleagues notwithstanding how strongly they may feel about current causes.

    There is certainly a double standard here. But I am not struggling to understand it – it is clear that superstars get treated far better than average people. But that is not a new story.
    But no one at your law firm is as critical to the enterprise’s success as Kyrie is to his. Lawyers are much easier to replace than uber-elite athletes. Which is why the very best lawyers make a fraction of what Kyrie makes (and have corresponding bargaining power).

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    But no one at your law firm is as critical to the enterprise’s success as Kyrie is to his. Lawyers are much easier to replace than uber-elite athletes. Which is why the very best lawyers make a fraction of what Kyrie makes (and have corresponding bargaining power).
    That is 100% true. And that is why his not playing is so critical.

    But in terms of salary, the average partner income at Wachtel Lipton (NY’s most profitable firm) is not far from the average NBA salary. And while the top partner at Wachtel may make less than Kyrie, it is not a fraction (technically, everything is a fraction – but it is not as far off as one might envision). To be clear – regrettably – I am not at Wachtel.

  8. #408
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    Not to get embroiled in the debate, but I'm reminded by the quip attributed to many that "eighty percent of success is showing up."

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    That is 100% true. And that is why his not playing is so critical.

    But in terms of salary, the average partner income at Wachtel Lipton (NY’s most profitable firm) is not far from the average NBA salary. And while the top partner at Wachtel may make less than Kyrie, it is not a fraction (technically, everything is a fraction – but it is not as far off as one might envision). To be clear – regrettably – I am not at Wachtel.
    My sense was that Wachtel takes an opposite approach to partner comp than the NBA: junior partners do better than they would at other firms, while the ones at the top do not take as disproportionately large a slice of the pie as at other firms. Of course, they are small and wildly profitable so they can afford to play by their own rules.

    At any rate, we agree that the dynamics are different. We also agree that once one commits to a team, whether in a law firm or playing a game for profit, one has an obligation to see their commitment through. There are, of course, exceptions and we don’t know the details here, but I suspect that I will not think more highly of Kyrie if/when they come out.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    My sense was that Wachtel takes an opposite approach to partner comp than the NBA: junior partners do better than they would at other firms, while the ones at the top do not take as disproportionately large a slice of the pie as at other firms. Of course, they are small and wildly profitable so they can afford to play by their own rules.

    At any rate, we agree that the dynamics are different. We also agree that once one commits to a team, whether in a law firm or playing a game for profit, one has an obligation to see their commitment through. There are, of course, exceptions and we don’t know the details here, but I suspect that I will not think more highly of Kyrie if/when they come out.
    There is nothing that you have said that I find any issue with!

  11. Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    There is a double standard, but it is actually inverse of that you are suggesting.

    In virtually every business in the real world, if an employee chooses not to come to work for a couple of weeks - without obviously getting approval from their employer – they would be fired. So the double standard is that Kyrie has not lost his job.
    We don't have all the facts, but Kyrie did notify people in the organization that he was taking leave.

    https://clutchpoints.com/nets-news-k...g-sixers-game/

    Regarding this notion that he is taking time off to contribute to a cause that he feels deeply involved with - there is no basis to support this proposition. And it does not override an obligation to your employer.
    There is some basis for that proposition.

    https://itsgame7.com/the-real-reason...eak-from-nets/

    There is no basis for the inverse proposition, that he didn't play because he's a horrible person. Innocent until proven guilty yes?

    Like many others here, I am a partner in a firm and I have partners and I have associates. We all work to a common goal, to service the needs of our clients and ultimately generate a profit (which allows us to pay salaries and distributions to partners). We have extreme time deadlines and our clients are demanding – so if one of my colleagues decided simply to not come into the office with no explanation, it puts all of us in a terrible predicament. And if that individual said that they want to continue to get paid, notwithstanding not showing up, that would be even more troubling.
    This theoretical colleague is not a good analogy to Kyrie, so I'll skip the strawman.

    Finally, without trying to beat a dead horse, the individuals posting on this board strike me as being pretty educated and engaged. I have little doubt that many feel strongly about political issues abounding in our current environment. But my speculation is that they still go to work and support their colleagues notwithstanding how strongly they may feel about current causes.
    Well, what have you done? (Rhetorical question, please no need to flex your charity contributions.) Is it enough to justify sitting on that high horse and criticizing Kyrie, who has put the time and money behind causes? Being educated and engaged is great, but putting money where your mouth is better and Kyrie has done that. How is he still on the negative ledger of society's respect.

    I don't know how I became Kyrie's lawyer in this court of opinion, and I'm flabbergasted that I have to do so on DUKE Basketball Report.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    We don't have all the facts, but Kyrie did notify people in the organization that he was taking leave.

    https://clutchpoints.com/nets-news-k...g-sixers-game/



    There is some basis for that proposition.

    https://itsgame7.com/the-real-reason...eak-from-nets/

    There is no basis for the inverse proposition, that he didn't play because he's a horrible person. Innocent until proven guilty yes?



    This theoretical colleague is not a good analogy to Kyrie, so I'll skip the strawman.



    Well, what have you done? (Rhetorical question, please no need to flex your charity contributions.) Is it enough to justify sitting on that high horse and criticizing Kyrie, who has put the time and money behind causes? Being educated and engaged is great, but putting money where your mouth is better and Kyrie has done that. How is he still on the negative ledger of society's respect.

    I don't know how I became Kyrie's lawyer in this court of opinion, and I'm flabbergasted that I have to do so on DUKE Basketball Report.

    The DUKE Basketball Report is a forum about Duke basketball with duke alum and duke fans. Reading and posting on it does not require blind allegiance to everything and everyone Duke. So I am amazed that you feel that Kyrie’s conduct and actions cannot be criticized on the DBR.

    You have barely made any arguments to support your position but have merely attempted to poke small holes in my arguments. Hardly convincing and an ineffective manner to put forward a rebuttal. There is more conjecture in what you assert than what I have argued (ie. “there is some basis for a proposition”). If you want to be Kyrie’s lawyer, your arguments need be more cogent, effective and comprehensive.

    Kyrie is a public figure - and in weighing his actions people can only reflect based on what is out in the public. Of course we do not know all the facts - as he refuses to speak about his absence. Is it possible that he has spoken with the organization about his absence - sure. Has the organization said that Kyrie has explained why he is absent - NO. On that basis it is reasonable to proceed on the assumption that he has not explained to the Nets his absence.

    Discussions about matters of this nature are based on facts that we do know. And based on what we know about Kyrie generally and his current conduct (non-attendance, violating protocols etc), I stand behind the arguments put forward.

  13. #413
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    Zion and Tyus both made Zach Lowe's "10 things" column this week
    https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...awesome-lakers

  14. Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    The DUKE Basketball Report is a forum about Duke basketball with duke alum and duke fans. Reading and posting on it does not require blind allegiance to everything and everyone Duke. So I am amazed that you feel that Kyrie’s conduct and actions cannot be criticized on the DBR.
    How about that strawman. Blind allegiance? No one is arguing that.

    You have barely made any arguments to support your position but have merely attempted to poke small holes in my arguments. Hardly convincing and an ineffective manner to put forward a rebuttal. There is more conjecture in what you assert than what I have argued (ie. “there is some basis for a proposition”). If you want to be Kyrie’s lawyer, your arguments need be more cogent, effective and comprehensive.
    I don’t want to be his lawyer, but why are you his prosecutor? And you’ll need to be more cogent, effective and comprehensive.

    Kyrie is a public figure - and in weighing his actions people can only reflect based on what is out in the public. Of course we do not know all the facts - as he refuses to speak about his absence. Is it possible that he has spoken with the organization about his absence - sure. Has the organization said that Kyrie has explained why he is absent - NO. On that basis it is reasonable to proceed on the assumption that he has not explained to the Nets his absence.
    Except he did inform the Nets and his teammates. He also informed Nash, though only minutes before the game started. His teammates support him on his personal leave. The Nets seem to have accepted it. Ergo, maybe you should too until something more concrete emerges that merits lashing.

    Discussions about matters of this nature are based on facts that we do know. And based on what we know about Kyrie generally and his current conduct (non-attendance, violating protocols etc), I stand behind the arguments put forward.
    Yeah, opinion based on conjecture.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    How about that strawman. Blind allegiance? No one is arguing that.



    I don’t want to be his lawyer, but why are you his prosecutor? And you’ll need to be more cogent, effective and comprehensive.



    Except he did inform the Nets and his teammates. He also informed Nash, though only minutes before the game started. His teammates support him on his personal leave. The Nets seem to have accepted it. Ergo, maybe you should too until something more concrete emerges that merits lashing.



    Yeah, opinion based on conjecture.
    It is difficult to respond to what is effectively jabs and not an argument.

    But you had said that you are acting as his lawyer defending him. Your words. I am not his prosecutor- but a guy on a discussion board expressing an opinion. That is the point of the board. The prosecutor is the NBA who fined him for breaking protocols.

    Your suggestion that the Nets have accepted this is a weak position to take - because it is not supported by anything substantive. Organizations that are paying a star 40M cannot come out and throw such a player under a bus - that is business. And his teammates are careful what they say - that is politics.

    We have all heard the anecdotes that the Nets no longer trust Kyrie and that is why Harden is critical. And that Kyrie was furious with the Nets because he did not support Nash. And that Houston did not want to touch Kyrie in a trade. Whether all or any of this true - I do not know. Until Kyrie comes out and tells a full story - conjecture will be all that we have. But I can speculate based on past and current conduct.

    There is ample material to support a criticism of Kyrie’s current and past conduct. But some people simple refuse to accept that he can be anything but a swell guy - you are likely one of them. And I respect your right to have such an opinion - I just do not agree with it. And that is fine - the purpose of the board is to have different views discussed.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    It is difficult to respond to what is effectively jabs and not an argument.

    But you had said that you are acting as his lawyer defending him. Your words. I am not his prosecutor- but a guy on a discussion board expressing an opinion. That is the point of the board. The prosecutor is the NBA who fined him for breaking protocols.

    Your suggestion that the Nets have accepted this is a weak position to take - because it is not supported by anything substantive. Organizations that are paying a star 40M cannot come out and throw such a player under a bus - that is business. And his teammates are careful what they say - that is politics.

    We have all heard the anecdotes that the Nets no longer trust Kyrie and that is why Harden is critical. And that Kyrie was furious with the Nets because he did not support Nash. And that Houston did not want to touch Kyrie in a trade. Whether all or any of this true - I do not know. Until Kyrie comes out and tells a full story - conjecture will be all that we have. But I can speculate based on past and current conduct.

    There is ample material to support a criticism of Kyrie’s current and past conduct. But some people simple refuse to accept that he can be anything but a swell guy - you are likely one of them. And I respect your right to have such an opinion - I just do not agree with it. And that is fine - the purpose of the board is to have different views discussed.
    You have yet to state a case other than "I feel differently" in the face of a multitude of links discussing his good works.

    I'm still waiting for the basis of your dislike of Kyrie.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    You have yet to state a case other than "I feel differently" in the face of a multitude of links discussing his good works.

    I'm still waiting for the basis of your dislike of Kyrie.
    I had sent you a private message.

    But I am not going to waste my time with individuals who just link references to articles and that is the basis fof their argument. My view has been articulated sufficiently well that you understand my position. Keep on linking for others to read articles - but I have Google and can do searches myself without your providing links to other peoples thoughts.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    I had sent you a private message.

    But I am not going to waste my time with individuals who just link references to articles and that is the basis fof their argument. My view has been articulated sufficiently well that you understand my position. Keep on linking for others to read articles - but I have Google and can do searches myself without your providing links to other peoples thoughts.
    I didn't get a message from you. But I will recheck.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    I had sent you a private message.

    But I am not going to waste my time with individuals who just link references to articles and that is the basis fof their argument. My view has been articulated sufficiently well that you understand my position. Keep on linking for others to read articles - but I have Google and can do searches myself without your providing links to other peoples thoughts.
    Would you rather posters simply state in their own words what was said in the articles they would have linked to you? Either way it would be the same message making the same points.

    Obviously if they send you a link to an article supporting their position that is a strong indication that they agree with what the person writing the article states. So what’s the difference at the end of the day whether the poster makes the specific points or they send a link to an article that says it for them?

  20. #420
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by 1991 duke law View Post
    The DUKE Basketball Report is a forum about Duke basketball with duke alum and duke fans. Reading and posting on it does not require blind allegiance to everything and everyone Duke. So I am amazed that you feel that Kyrie’s conduct and actions cannot be criticized on the DBR.
    My view, which I am prone to act upon, is that DBR is a public site visible to all. Therefore, except in rare cases of known knaves, Duke players and coaches can be criticized but should also be defended. Therefore, what shows to the public is a balanced view. I think your and Mtn. Devil's initial posts were just fine.

    Kindly,
    Sage Grouse
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

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