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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC

    Duke MSU post game thread

    No post game thread? Guess I’ll start one

    Obviously it’s always disappointing to lose. This is a very young team that hasn’t played much together and it showed tonight.

    This was my first time seeing the team (thank you Comcast), but here are my quick thoughts:
    Defense - after a great first 5 minutes of getting in passing lanes and rotating to take charges, the energy fell way off (other than Baker who played with the most energy of anyone tonight). Maybe it was JJs foul trouble, maybe it was letting bad offense impact their D, or maybe it was MSU making adjustments and settling down (and pushing the ball in transition), but I believe for this team to be a contender defense needs to be a calling card.

    Offense - looked slow and stagnant. Very little ball or player movement. Ball stuck in everyone’s hands, and way too much one on one / ISO. Looked best in transition but not good in half court. Coaches will need to install more set plays than past years with this group. Shooting was terrible - at least 4 threes missed the rim altogether. Moore shouldn’t lead the team in 3 point attempts. Steward, Roach, and even Hurt had trouble finishing through contact at the rim - those 6 or so layups would have made a huge difference. Loved what Brakefield brought. Played under control and almost like a vet. Definitely earned more minutes going forward.

    A lot to learn from and the team has a lot of growth potential. Despite the loss I’m optimistic the coaches have a lot to work with.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham

    what game?

    duke is 1-0 on the year and plays next against bell in a couple days.

    1200. DDMF.

  3. #3
    We were thoroughly outclassed and thoroughly clueless. I like our players and I think the pieces can fit together in time. I am not certain that MSU is a top ten caliber team, and since they beat us so badly, I am not sure what that makes us, but there is a long road ahead and we will get much better.

    We need to start moving our feet on offense. It is so easy to defend us when we either shoot a deep 3 or penetrate into traffic. We also need better decision making in transition, as it seems we executed poorly often and that led to a fast break on the other end.

    Most of all, we need confidence. The seeming lack of effort was really just doubt over where to attack. If we are not hitting threes, we are way to easy to defend.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Princeton, NJ
    Quote Originally Posted by Namtilal View Post
    We were thoroughly outclassed and thoroughly clueless. I like our players and I think the pieces can fit together in time. I am not certain that MSU is a top ten caliber team, and since they beat us so badly, I am not sure what that makes us, but there is a long road ahead and we will get much better.

    We need to start moving our feet on offense. It is so easy to defend us when we either shoot a deep 3 or penetrate into traffic. We also need better decision making in transition, as it seems we executed poorly often and that led to a fast break on the other end.

    Most of all, we need confidence. The seeming lack of effort was really just doubt over where to attack. If we are not hitting threes, we are way to easy to defend.
    So badly? A 2 possession game in the final minute?

  5. #5
    Youth showed up tonight. I don’t know who is going to step up this year and be a go to scorer for this team, but I know who ain’t! Mr. Wendell Moore. At least right now, he looks like he has regressed from a year ago. Gold wire and Hurt are going to have to be solid and consistent for this team of young freshmen if they are going to jell together. Of course, they got schooled by Mich. St tonight. They have some talent from the freshmen, but the older guys need to be better, and tonight they were not. Could be a long year as far as what we have been used to seeing. I just hope coach K can whip them into shape pretty soon. We shall see.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    A lot to digest in this one. But it mainly boils down to MSU out-toughing us tonight. A good learning experience for a young team.

    The half-court offense was nonexistent for us. We couldn’t seem to create anything. That led to a lot of really bad shots that, not surprisingly, didn’t go in. Wendell Moore was unfortunately the poster child here, as this game felt a lot like his bad games from last year: poor shot selection and sloppy ballhandling. The three star freshmen each had a learning game here, and I think “getting a sense of what physical college ball is like” sums it up. Roach, Steward, and Johnson all struggled.

    That said, it wasn’t all bad. Hurt had a nice offensive game, although he too struggled with MSU’s physicality. But he did show some positives off the dribble. Goldwire showed plenty of toughness, causing turnovers and scoring off the dribble numerous times. He is gonna stay in the backcourt rotation, simply for the fact that he is tough, experienced, and aggressive defensively. He has a high floor in terms of role, but a low ceiling. But he knows his game and he plays it all out. Last but not least, Brakefield was terrific relative to expectations. He isn’t Johnson, but he appears to have the switchability and skill level to serve as the third member of a three-man frontcourt rotation behind Johnson and Hurt. That doesn’t bode well for Tape, Coleman, or Williams this season. But it is a great thing for getting continuity of style.

    The team has some things to work on. Most notably half-court offense and playing tougher. Hopefully they can build off this loss. Never fun to get beat, but hopefully better days will come with more experience.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    So badly? A 2 possession game in the final minute?
    we shouldn't let the fact that MSU sleep walked through the last 2 minutes of the game erase the fact that this was not competitive for much of the game.

    The offense was bad. Really bad...it turns out that when you can't get good shots, they don't go in at a very high %.

    That said, at least we didn't turn it over so much, and fought hard until the end.

    Other random thoughts: hurt was really good. much of the hate on "returning players" was unwarranted in his case. he had a pretty good game the other night, and the best game among duke tonight. Baker had some okay defensive plays, but the offense is so bad in the half court right now, that he isn't really going to shine IMO. Not good enough to create his own shot. I liked stewards effort on the boards early, even if it didn't result in more than 1 board. I far prefer the effort than bigs who put in little effort but end up with some based on height (as we've seen a few of in recent years). I liked moore's aggressiveness early, even if it didn't result in, well, any made buckets. At least he got to the line. I'd like to see more of that from him.

    This is pretty much what you'd expect based on how we played the other day. We're not a good team. We CAN be, but we're not...right now, anyway.
    1200. DDMF.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by mkirsh View Post
    No post game thread? Guess I’ll start one



    Offense - looked slow and stagnant. Very little ball or player movement. Ball stuck in everyone’s hands, and way too much one on one / ISO. Looked best in transition but not good in half court. .

    I think a lot of us saw the same things on offense. Nine assists (9!!) confirms that. Goldwire and Hurt were the post-game interviews and they saw that. Goldwire specifically used the word "stagnant" to describe Duke's second-half offense.

    But I asked K about that and he very much did not agree with the premise. No big surprise. He can be very protective of his young teams. But Duke is going to have to figure out ways to score in the half-court against good teams and I strongly suspect better ball movement will have to be part of the solution.

    And yes, Duke can score in transition and with the exception of Virginia, Duke may not play a better defensive team than Michigan State. It's early, Duke had a truncated pre-season and there's every reason to believe Duke can iron out these areas of concern. It's very premature to get on the ledge.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Since kedsy isn't here yet with the tasty tasty:

    99 adjusted O. very bad. ~150 in the country
    84 adjusted D. very good. #1 in the country
    1200. DDMF.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Didn’t have high hopes for this one. Young team against a physical veteran team. Second game of the year. No home court advantage due to no fans.

    Then they raced out to a 10 point lead and I got my hopes up. Then Sparty got their legs under them and pretty much had their way.

    The last 5 minutes or so were interesting; the press worked decently, and they made it a game again, but I was never feeling like they had a miracle in them.

    Hurt was about the only consistent bright spot. Johnson had a good first half but after the foul trouble and the big deficit, you could see him trying to play hero ball.

    Moore was... bad. Not sure why... I had high hopes for him this year. His confidence looked shot by the end. Hopefully he can turn it around.

    Goldwire rediscovered his role of feisty, disruptive defender, so that’s good.

    Baker can’t seem to shoot lately. That can’t continue, can it? At least he played hard on D.

    After a great first game, Steward and Roach played like freshmen.

    Brakefield looks like he’s earning more minutes with his hustle and offense.

    I’m real surprised we didn’t see more Mark Williams, and no Coleman or Tape at all yet. Could have used some of that size, physicality and rebounding.

    But at least they cut down the turnovers.

    Not super concerned with this one. Would have been nice to win, but it’s (hopefully) a long season.

  11. #11
    Steward, Baker, and Moore were a combined 0-19 from the floor (0-12 from 3-pt). It can only go up from here!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think a lot of us saw the same things on offense. Nine assists (9!!) confirms that. Goldwire and Hurt were the post-game interviews and they saw that. Goldwire specifically used the word "stagnant" to describe Duke's second-half offense.

    But I asked K about that and he very much did not agree with the premise. No big surprise. He can be very protective of his young teams. But Duke is going to have to figure out ways to score in the half-court against good teams and I strongly suspect better ball movement will have to be part of the solution.

    And yes, Duke can score in transition and with the exception of Virginia, Duke may not play a better defensive team than Michigan State. It's early, Duke had a truncated pre-season and there's every reason to believe Duke can iron out these areas of concern. It's very premature to get on the ledge.
    Did K happen to disagree because he thought the phrase “stagnant” was too generous? :-D Not at all on the ledge but that was a horrific performance from the half-court offense.

    Just one game though and the team flashed a bit of its potential in the opening - pressure defense, pushing the pace and attacking in the half court. They fell off quite a bit which can be attributed to youthful inconsistency and the aforementioned toughness learning curve.

    This season’s gonna be a ride! Will be enjoyable to watch these young guys grow - especially in anticipation of seeing a multi-year growth curve for many (most?) of them.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    I vented a lot at the end of the in-game thread so I’ll mention a couple positives. First off, I absolutely love how much Steward competes for rebounds. I don’t know how in the world he was only credited with one because he was under the basket boxing out and going after the ball all the time. Several times he went up and was able to get the ball to a teammate or keep a possession alive.

    Also we typically worry about the team peaking in November and then failing to improve. Hopefully this early loss will provide motivation to address the team’s needs. We have some good pieces but need to develop and mature as a team.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Chicago

    What role does K have

    In mind for our bigs? Tapé, Williams and Coleman...I’d like to see them get some burn. Not only can they help on defense...but offensive rebounding outside JJ is lacking. In addition...playing weak with the ball is one of my biggest pet peeves...and both Wendell and Joey do that consistently. I give Jeremy and DJ a lot more leash on that (and believe they will both get stronger as the season goes on). But Moore and Baker need a shorter leash if they can’t handle the ball on offense.
    Last edited by -jk; 12-02-2020 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Add an apostrophe to tape to autocorrect to Tapé
    Windy City Devil

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CoachJ10 View Post
    In mind for our bigs? Tape, Williams and Coleman...I’d like to see them get some burn. Not only can they help on defense...but offensive rebounding outside JJ is lacking. In addition...playing weak with the ball is one of my biggest pet peeves...and both Wendell and Joey do that consistently. I give Jeremy and DJ a lot more leash on that (and believe they will both get stronger as the season goes on). But Moore and Baker need a shorter leash if they can’t handle the ball on offense.
    It feels like he feels stuck needing to keep Hurt and Johnson on the floor in order to make the offense flow, and you don’t really want to slide either of those guys down a position. Brakefield seems like the one who will be able to slide in on the wing and add some depth and versatility, but it sadly feels like this team needs Hurt and Johnson to play 30+ minutes a night to be successful.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Santa Clara, CA
    5 thoughts:

    1. They looked really young. And it’s not clear who’s the leader of this team. At least when they were down, they didn’t lay down and die. MSU let them back in a bit, but Duke did show a hint of life at the end. But the final score isn't indicative of the actual game.
    2. After those very early FTs, Moore looked terrible. Not a good showing if you want to be captain. I look for him to bounce back, though. It's early.
    3. Roach looked out of control to me on several occasions. And Johnson clearly couldn’t follow up his record game previously. One could say, “Freshmen” and shrug, so for now I’ll leave it at that.
    4. No Crazies seems to be a factor. No energy. And if it was the case, I think Duke would be wise not to let the opposing team staff sit under a basket again.
    5. Again, no Tape. What gives? Hope we don't have another Obi...

    9F
    I will never talk about That Game. GTHC.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think a lot of us saw the same things on offense. Nine assists (9!!) confirms that. Goldwire and Hurt were the post-game interviews and they saw that. Goldwire specifically used the word "stagnant" to describe Duke's second-half offense.

    But I asked K about that and he very much did not agree with the premise. No big surprise. He can be very protective of his young teams. But Duke is going to have to figure out ways to score in the half-court against good teams and I strongly suspect better ball movement will have to be part of the solution.

    And yes, Duke can score in transition and with the exception of Virginia, Duke may not play a better defensive team than Michigan State. It's early, Duke had a truncated pre-season and there's every reason to believe Duke can iron out these areas of concern. It's very premature to get on the ledge.

    Jim can you provide more detail on how he responded to your question?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I think a lot of us saw the same things on offense. Nine assists (9!!) confirms that. Goldwire and Hurt were the post-game interviews and they saw that. Goldwire specifically used the word "stagnant" to describe Duke's second-half offense.

    But I asked K about that and he very much did not agree with the premise. No big surprise. He can be very protective of his young teams. But Duke is going to have to figure out ways to score in the half-court against good teams and I strongly suspect better ball movement will have to be part of the solution.

    And yes, Duke can score in transition and with the exception of Virginia, Duke may not play a better defensive team than Michigan State. It's early, Duke had a truncated pre-season and there's every reason to believe Duke can iron out these areas of concern. It's very premature to get on the ledge.
    Thanks to Jim for talking us all of the ledge, but our offense today just had no answer. I've seen worse offensive performances, but there was a real helplessness there tonight. It's a massive concern. Roach getting burned off dribble penetration is also a problem I don't know we can solve, outside of zone D.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by CoachJ10 View Post
    In mind for our bigs? Tape, Williams and Coleman...I’d like to see them get some burn. Not only can they help on defense...but offensive rebounding outside JJ is lacking.
    If they're getting so little play time, there's a major practice reason. It's not always effort, but could be they're not grasping something critical on one side of the floor or the other. Whatever it is, I hope they straighten it out, most of all, because I want to see all our players succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post

    Moore was... bad. Not sure why... I had high hopes for him this year. His confidence looked shot by the end. Hopefully he can turn it around.
    He was aggressive early and got to the line...seeing nothing drop has to hurt, though. I'd like to continue to see the aggressiveness moving forward, and he 'looked' more like he had experience in the first few minutes...far more than last week. I don't think he'd have gotten 16 shots in if K didn't have confidence in him.



    Baker can’t seem to shoot lately. That can’t continue, can it? At least he played hard on D.
    4 steals. That's great to see for him, and something he'll have to continue to do to warrant play time. He's not good enough to create his own shot on offense, and that's alright...but pretty much nobody was tonight, and if that's the case, then as a 3 specialist, you're gonna have a hard time. He's a 40% shooter...but you're not going to shoot 40% on the kind of shots the team was getting tonight for most of the game.

    Not super concerned with this one. Would have been nice to win, but it’s (hopefully) a long season.
    absolutely. We were bad, there's no doubt about it....but there is a lot of promise. We played exceptional defense tonight against a good MSU offense. The halfcourt offense did not click AT ALL, and yet hurt still was able to be productive, and our two guards were starting their first games against a very good defense with a short offseason. Unfortunately with a short season, the time to put it together is short, but still lots of time. We obviously made huge strides on not turning it over in a few days, and have 3 games in the next 2 weeks to help get things straight before the ACC season, and believe it or not, that was the hardest game on our schedule. and even though the 6 was deceptive, it was still 6.
    1200. DDMF.

  20. #20
    Their experienced players completely dominated our experienced players.

    Still plenty of time to improve, but I'm not seeing alot of bonafide NBA type talent on our roster other than Johnson.

    I really hope Wendell and Baker find their game. Without their normal contributions, this will be a long long season.

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