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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley

    "High School" Model of The Future?

    So now you can play high school ball for a team that isn't actually a high school. And the state of North Carolina is leading the charge with two of them.
    Thoughts?

    My first one is, "these kids are screwed". We all know that only a small fraction of players find success in the NBA, so while these guys will "graduate" from somewhere that they laughingly take online classes through, the fact is that their educations are being chucked out the window in blatant fashion. That attitude will assuredly carry over to any college that they go to for a year.

    So what happens when their high hopes don't pan out the way they and their families expected? Or what if they indeed are amazing players with the skills to go big, and get hurt before their careers ever start? Or even after? (Like they make it, but then blow out a knee in season one.)

    The basketball world is becoming more insane by the day.
    High school basketball phenom Mikey Williams, a 5-star national recruit, won’t play at Lake Norman Christian for his junior season, but he will still attend the Huntersville private school for classes.
    “We’re not going to be sanctioned by any high school association,” Mahlon Williams said, “and we’ll play showcase games against prep schools. We’ll be an all-around club team. We’re adopting the European (basketball) model.”
    Another similar school, the N.C. Good Better Best Academy, will open in Durham this fall. McInnis’ former teammate at North Carolina, former NBA star Rasheed Wallace, will be boys basketball coach.
    (This is the job that Wallace left Jordan High for...movin' on up!)

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-star-ba...215343666.html

    PS...I can't see the name "The N.C. Good Better Best Academy" and not think "The Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too"
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, within a couple of miles of Cameron
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    So now you can play high school ball for a team that isn't actually a high school. And the state of North Carolina is leading the charge with two of them.
    Thoughts?

    My first one is, "these kids are screwed". We all know that only a small fraction of players find success in the NBA, so while these guys will "graduate" from somewhere that they laughingly take online classes through, the fact is that their educations are being chucked out the window in blatant fashion. That attitude will assuredly carry over to any college that they go to for a year.

    So what happens when their high hopes don't pan out the way they and their families expected? Or what if they indeed are amazing players with the skills to go big, and get hurt before their careers ever start? Or even after? (Like they make it, but then blow out a knee in season one.)

    The basketball world is becoming more insane by the day.


    (This is the job that Wallace left Jordan High for...movin' on up!)

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-star-ba...215343666.html

    PS...I can't see the name "The N.C. Good Better Best Academy" and not think "The Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too"
    It is very early today, but I think this is the InterWebs' Post Of The Day already. 'Good-Better-Best'....holy charter school, Batman!
    Reminds me of the phrase, "the enemy of good is better".
    Alas.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Summerville ,S.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    So now you can play high school ball for a team that isn't actually a high school. And the state of North Carolina is leading the charge with two of them.
    Thoughts?

    My first one is, "these kids are screwed". We all know that only a small fraction of players find success in the NBA, so while these guys will "graduate" from somewhere that they laughingly take online classes through, the fact is that their educations are being chucked out the window in blatant fashion. That attitude will assuredly carry over to any college that they go to for a year.

    So what happens when their high hopes don't pan out the way they and their families expected? Or what if they indeed are amazing players with the skills to go big, and get hurt before their careers ever start? Or even after? (Like they make it, but then blow out a knee in season one.)

    The basketball world is becoming more insane by the day.


    (This is the job that Wallace left Jordan High for...movin' on up!)

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-star-ba...215343666.html

    PS...I can't see the name "The N.C. Good Better Best Academy" and not think "The Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too"
    Unfortunately it isnt just basketball
    Football has factories aswell.
    Travel football/basketball in young age gruops.
    A former coach of my kids used to say.
    Kids dont mess sports up the adults do .
    Money power has no place in lower level sports .

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vermont
    There have been non school high schools in the past in NC, one in particular in the Raleigh area...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    A question for our European soccer friends: what happens to the kids in the youth development programs over there?

    -jk

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    There have been non school high schools in the past in NC, one in particular in the Raleigh area...
    Durham too. I grew up there and could never figure out exactly what Mt. Zion was. A “Christian academy” with really great basketball players from alll over the country? 🤔

  7. #7
    I actually went to a tennis academy in Florida for a couple weeks over spring break when I was like 13 and spent the entire time with the "full time students." It was quite interesting to see their experience...and the odds are ridiculously against them for tennis being a career way more than these top flight basketball players. They had school in the mornings and got out around lunch time and trained for the rest of the day. I didn't sit in on the classes so couldn't speak to the quality of instruction or lack thereof. Certainly not something I would choose for my children, but some see excellence in athletics equally or more important than academics, particularly for a child that shows promise.

    I think school is slightly overrated myself in that an individual who is motivated and intrinsically intelligent will end of fine even with an education that isn't super robust. They still end being okay in college etc. However there is some minimum threshold and an education that is basically non-existent won't work even for students with the attributes I mentioned above in my experience.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by dukebluesincebirth View Post
    Durham too. I grew up there and could never figure out exactly what Mt. Zion was. A “Christian academy” with really great basketball players from alll over the country? 🤔
    Thank God?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by dukebluesincebirth View Post
    Durham too. I grew up there and could never figure out exactly what Mt. Zion was. A “Christian academy” with really great basketball players from alll over the country? 🤔
    i may be mistaken, but I think you got whooshed Though the example to which i would have referred is in chapel hill.
    basketball is back, baby!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York, NY
    Specialty high schools for sports?

    Duke women's tennis: 8 players
    Where did they go to high school?
    4 online (2, Florida Virtual; 2, Laurel Springs Online).
    3 international
    1 American high school (Torrey Pines in California, which sounds like a sports academy but apparently isn't).
    https://goduke.com/sports/womens-tennis/roster

    Duke men's tennis: 10 players
    4 online (1 to Florida Virtual; 3 to Laurel Springs Online)
    1 tennis academy (Hilton Head... sweet).
    2 international
    3 American high schools
    https://goduke.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster

    Tennis is generally a sport of relative affluence, but many players skip college to play pro tennis, and most pro tennis players barely squeak by. This article notes that for many in pro tennis, the view is that "college tennis is for losers." In the 2020 US Open, 14/128 players attended college (though many are international). https://www.wearecollegetennis.com/2...-singles-draw/
    https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/article.asp?id=2598

    No College?
    1/3 of MLB draftees are high school students. Almost all enter at the minor league level, and only 10% of minor leaguers ever play in the majors.
    2018 Pay schedule for minor league baseball players: $6,000 in Single-A, $9,350 in Double-A and $15,000 in Triple-A.
    There's been a recent bump, but the numbers are still below the poverty line.
    https://fanbuzz.com/mlb/minor-league-baseball-salary/

    Basketball?
    Well, I don't know how well virtual schools teach, but--unless they're cheating--their players still need to attend class to play and learn enough to do okay on standardized testing so that they can get a college scholarship. Compare that to public high schools in poor districts, and heading to a Montverde is probably a step up in terms of both academics and basketball. Sure, most won't make the NBA, but they're probably more likely get a college scholarship, which for many of them, is a step towards not being poor.

    Porn?
    A friend did a documentary on porn stars years ago (that film, Thinking XXX, like others he's done, was on HBO). One of the actresses made an excellent point: "it's not as if we were choosing between Harvard or porn, porn or Harvard. We were choosing between porn or a double wide with an abusive husband."

    Justice?
    I totally get the concern that some of these guys are going to be chewed up by a system that cares almost exclusively about how well they play basketball, but it's very unlikely that the basketball system will chew up as many folks as does the baseball system and not a tiny fraction of those who get chewed up by a system in which public school kids in poor districts get dramatically worse educations than do public school kids in more affluent areas a few miles away.https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ed/5000094002/
    Last edited by johnb; 07-14-2021 at 11:51 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Specialty high schools for sports?

    Porn?
    A friend did a documentary on porn stars years ago (that film, Thinking XXX, like others he's done, was on HBO). One of the actresses made an excellent point: "it's not as if we were choosing between Harvard or porn, porn or Harvard. We were choosing between porn or a double wide with an abusive husband."

    Justice?
    I totally get the concern that some of these guys are going to be chewed up by a system that cares almost exclusively about how well they play basketball, but it's very unlikely that the basketball system will chew up as many folks as does the baseball system and not a tiny fraction of those who get chewed up by a system in which public school kids in poor districts get dramatically worse educations than do public school kids in more affluent areas a few miles away.https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ed/5000094002/
    Totally agree. The notion that the only path to happiness and success is to follow a college preparatory route through a conventional (and at Duke, often an expensive private) secondary school is flawed. And there's a scent of elitism in the anti-sports academy attitude. Automatically assuming that kids who choose to go to Good Better Best are "Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too" is offensive and borders on racist. Just because a higher percentage of elite high school basketball players are likely to be of color, from poor or inner city areas, or from a single parent household, does not mean they don't deserve the same right to make choices about their education that wealthy kids attending tennis academies have.

    Of nose, I have several acquaintances who played minor league baseball, but never made the bigs. They all went on to pursue education and careers and have done just fine. And all of them look back at their minor league experience as one of the best times in their lives, despite the lack of a long term baseball career. They don't think they were exploited, even though they were living at a poverty level. They got to play the game they loved.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by clinresga View Post
    Totally agree. The notion that the only path to happiness and success is to follow a college preparatory route through a conventional (and at Duke, often an expensive private) secondary school is flawed. And there's a scent of elitism in the anti-sports academy attitude. Automatically assuming that kids who choose to go to Good Better Best are "Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too" is offensive and borders on racist. Just because a higher percentage of elite high school basketball players are likely to be of color, from poor or inner city areas, or from a single parent household, does not mean they don't deserve the same right to make choices about their education that wealthy kids attending tennis academies have.
    Thanks for calling me a racist elitist. I totally appreciate that. In fact, it is because of my elitism that I chose to go and get my bachelors in fine arts from a non-conventional college because I knew that the easiest and fastest way to be hobnobbing with with the rich and powerful was through learning to be a better painter.

    The referenced name from Zoolander was because the name of the academy in Durham is laughably bad.

    I'd post more, but I'm running late to pick up my large front yard confederate flag from the dry cleaners.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    Thanks for calling me a racist elitist. I totally appreciate that. In fact, it is because of my elitism that I chose to go and get my bachelors in fine arts from a non-conventional college because I knew that the easiest and fastest way to be hobnobbing with with the rich and powerful was through learning to be a better painter.

    The referenced name from Zoolander was because the name of the academy in Durham is laughably bad.

    I'd post more, but I'm running late to pick up my large front yard confederate flag from the dry cleaners.
    Yikes, let me clarify. Not calling you racist. But I worry that the zoolander quote could be construed that way. I know you are thoughtful and sincere in your concerns over what could be seen as the cheapening of the educational process in the name of pursuing big bucks in the NBA (a goal that only a tiny fraction will achieve). I think there are points on both side of the argument that carry weight. And I beg forgiveness if I overreacted to the quote--but when I see "Good Better Best" concatenated with "Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff" it just rings my bell (call me oversensitive). And I think that categorical statements like "their educations are being chucked out the window in blatant fashion" may be overly simplistic and perhaps unfair to some kids and their families who are making a thoughtful choice based on their understanding of the kid's talents and future potential.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    A question for our European soccer friends: what happens to the kids in the youth development programs over there?

    -jk
    The Masia, the FC Barcelona academy, does include an educational component, but I don’t know how many hours a week. The Masia has other sports and they have facilities in different countries, including the US

    https://barcaacademy.fcbarcelona.com/en/card/1110549/barca-residency-academy-usa

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    If a player is on a regular high school team (or even one of the other not so regular ones, I'm guessing), they still have to go to class and maintain some kind of academic standing, right? Like you can't flunk out and stay on the team.

    However, since these new teams aren't actually schools, the powers that be might care less how you are doing in your "classes", or even if you go. I guess that's where my big questions come in to play.

    From the original article.
    We wanted a space to play in to create elite athletes,” he said. “We’re starting with the basketball program and eventually we want to have tennis and volleyball sand softball. We’re hoping in two years, this thing will be super huge. And here’s the great thing about our school: although kids will go to Lake Norman Christian for this year, it’s not a criteria because we are a high-level club team. A kid can go to another school and still play for us.
    Do they care if the kid goes to school at all? If he's regularly missing classes, or if he's Zooming in but not doing any of the work involved, does it matter to them?
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Atlanta, GA/Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBornAndBred View Post
    If a player is on a regular high school team (or even one of the other not so regular ones, I'm guessing), they still have to go to class and maintain some kind of academic standing, right? Like you can't flunk out and stay on the team.

    However, since these new teams aren't actually schools, the powers that be might care less how you are doing in your "classes", or even if you go. I guess that's where my big questions come in to play.

    From the original article.


    Do they care if the kid goes to school at all? If he's regularly missing classes, or if he's Zooming in but not doing any of the work involved, does it matter to them?
    Or look at it like this. These schools prepare players in ways that benefit them most. For example, it is commonly known that Kwame Brown didn't even know how to cook for himself or wash clothes when he was drafted. They had to actually give him an assistant/guardian/mentor/caretaker just so he could live everyday life. A little time away from the hometown would have served him well.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post

    Duke men's tennis: 10 players
    4 online (1 to Florida Virtual; 3 to Laurel Springs Online)
    1 tennis academy (Hilton Head... sweet).
    2 international
    3 American high schools
    https://goduke.com/sports/mens-tennis/roster

    Tennis is generally a sport of relative affluence, but many players skip college to play pro tennis, and most pro tennis players barely squeak by. This article notes that for many in pro tennis, the view is that "college tennis is for losers." In the 2020 US Open, 14/128 players attended college (though many are international). https://www.wearecollegetennis.com/2...-singles-draw/
    https://www.tennisrecruiting.net/article.asp?id=2598
    This is a really good post overall, and raises far more questions than it gives answers. Someone could make a great documentary from it.

    Highlighting the tennis section, since it is something that I've got close familiarity with. My mom's side of the family is big on tennis; they grew up in Forest Hills, NY, and were members of the West Side where the US Open used to be played. My uncle played college, all four years at the #1 position for the baby blues over in Chapel Hill.
    He went pro after, which gave him the opportunity to literally travel the world, but he never found financial success in it.
    However, he put his education to great use, and retired in his 50s from the financial sector, a multi-millionaire many times over. (I guess he went to class. )
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  18. #18
    There’s nothing wrong with virtual schooling. Both of my sons did it for a period of time for different reasons. It wasn’t a true “home school” though. It was a state chartered virtual school with state licensed teachers teaching the state curriculum. They both made better grades and learned more in virtual school than regular school. Without the bus rides, home room, changing classes, recess, etc, they were able to complete classes and homework in about 1/2 a normal school day. The key for us was that Mom was monitoring their progress and making sure that they had classes on their screen instead of Minecraft and that their assignments were completed. It would not have worked otherwise. So sports academy with virtual schooling is not a bad idea at all if properly monitored. To me that makes more sense than kids attending a full day of normal school with school sports and travel ball on top of that. These kids will get plenty of socialization without all the interruptions of a full school day.

  19. #19
    As someone who went to a public school that cared about sports, I don't think this is really all that different that what many kids experienced in a traditional school setting.

    Athletes from my high school were very unprepared for college and often lacked basic skills. However, if they could kick a soccer ball, shoot a basketball or run with the football the high school made sure the teachers knew that these kids had to stay eligible. Even for kids that cared, the academics at this school were a joke.

    One of the girls that went to school at the same time I did was a great basketball player. Ended up on academic suspension after a year at NC State. I was not surprised at all. She did win a state championship in High School, so mission accomplished!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    A question for our European soccer friends: what happens to the kids in the youth development programs over there?

    -jk
    In the UK, thousands wash out before the age of 16. Those that get scholarships at 16 are still required to go to local colleges (the UK equivalent of high school) and get additional “life training.” For EPL teams there will be less than a dozen kids moving on to that level. It’s a pretty brutal system but at least the “dream” is over for most earlier than here. They can move on with life.

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