UAP & ET - Do you believe?

[OldPhiKap]

I think being skeptical is good and just good science. But I think that being a skeptic shows a lack of curiosity in science that is lazy . . . .

Huh? This seems contradictory to me so not sure what is being said here, sorry. (I would like to consider and respond).

I am looking at it from a practical matter. For a craft to be visible, it’s gonna have to be big. Like, really big. The resources to build, fuel, and to provide life-supporting supplies such as food For such a craft would have to make the trip extremely expensive. So I exclude the intergalactic “joy ride” vacationer idea. (Plus, if that was the case, we would have pretty consistent contact). So, we’re talking a major undertaking by a planetary government or an off-world Elon Musk sending these things to us. If so, why would they not make contact after all that time and enormous expenditure of resources?

Then if reports are to believed, there are multiple ship configurations and different descriptions of aliens. So, we’re getting single or rare visits from multiple species — and none of them made contact?

I am very interested in science. And my skepticism does not come from religion — I’m a Joseph Campbell man in that regard. Wanting to see a logical construct is my field, and I have trouble seeing it here when one considers the practical aspects of the phenomena.

Again, I mean it all respectfully. I am more than open to being proven wrong. But when we go from proof to belief, well — which view is relying on religion/myth?

I hope this all comes across the way it is intended.

(btw the bold header on top must be a typo from the body — not sure where it came from and cannot delete).

[-jk]

Huh? This seems contradictory to me so not sure what is being said here, sorry. (I would like to consider and respond).

I am looking at it from a practical matter. For a craft to be visible, it’s gonna have to be big. Like, really big. The resources to build, fuel, and to provide life-supporting supplies such as food For such a craft would have to make the trip extremely expensive. So I exclude the intergalactic “joy ride” vacationer idea. (Plus, if that was the case, we would have pretty consistent contact). So, we’re talking a major undertaking by a planetary government or an off-world Elon Musk sending these things to us. If so, why would they not make contact after all that time and enormous expenditure of resources?

Then if reports are to believed, there are multiple ship configurations and different descriptions of aliens. So, we’re getting single or rare visits from multiple species — and none of them made contact?

I am very interested in science. And my skepticism does not come from religion — I’m a Joseph Campbell man in that regard. Wanting to see a logical construct is my field, and I have trouble seeing it here when one considers the practical aspects of the phenomena.

Again, I mean it all respectfully. I am more than open to being proven wrong. But when we go from proof to belief, well — which view is relying on religion/myth?

I hope this all comes across the way it is intended.

(btw the bold header on top must be a typo from the body — not sure where it came from and cannot delete).

It's a UTO - unidentified typographical object!

-jk

[jimsumner]

What could be filed under more mundane explanations?

Well, if we knew that they wouldn't be unidentified, now would they?

Look, I get it. You're a True Believer and your persistence is admirable, I suppose. But you've been rehashing the same narrative for a couple of weeks now and haven't brought anyone round to your point of view because they are just too many holes in that narrative. It strains credulity way past the breaking point to think that technologically advanced aliens have been visiting Earth for 75 years or so without any discernible motive, without any attempt to contact anyone in authority, without any attempt to explain themselves, without leaving any physical evidence.

We have umpteen gazillion satellites in orbit, capable of finding something the size of a book. But we can't see them. Cloaking devices? These guys are hiding from us until they suddenly decide they aren't? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Sailors used to think manatees were mermaids for crying out loud.

As Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We have way more of the first than of the second.

[jimsumner]

Well, if we knew that they wouldn't be unidentified, now would they?

Look, I get it. You're a True Believer and your persistence is admirable, I suppose. But you've been rehashing the same narrative for a couple of weeks now and haven't brought anyone round to your point of view because they are just too many holes in that narrative. It strains credulity way past the breaking point to think that technologically advanced aliens have been visiting Earth for 75 years or so without any discernible motive, without any attempt to contact anyone in authority, without any attempt to explain themselves, without leaving any physical evidence.

We have umpteen gazillion satellites in orbit, capable of finding something the size of a book. But we can't see them. Cloaking devices? These guys are hiding from us until they suddenly decide they aren't? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Sailors used to think manatees were mermaids for crying out loud.

As Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We have way more of the first than of the second.

I tried to edit this to make it a little less personal but missed the cutoff. I apologize if this came off overly harsh. I'm old enough to remember Chariots of Fire and all that. it just seems like rehashing the same-old-same-old. To borrow a term from the election thread I'm not seeing or hearing anything that comes close to moving the needle. Hey Space Guys, if you're really out there, come out and announce yourselves. Even if you have a giant robot protecting you.

[OldPhiKap]

I tried to edit this to make it a little less personal but missed the cutoff. I apologize if this came off overly harsh. I'm old enough to remember Chariots of Fire and all that. it just seems like rehashing the same-old-same-old. To borrow a term from the election thread I'm not seeing or hearing anything that comes close to moving the needle. Hey Space Guys, if you're really out there, come out and announce yourselves. Even if you have a giant robot protecting you.

If they don’t do it in 2020, they never will.

(Do you mean “Chariots of the Gods?” perchance, not “Chariots of Fire?’ Or do you dig the soundtrack that much?)

[jimsumner]

If they don’t do it in 2020, they never will.

(Do you mean “Chariots of the Gods?” perchance, not “Chariots of Fire?’ Or do you dig the soundtrack that much?)

Yea, that Von Daniken guy. He sure had his 15 minutes of fame.

[whereinthehellami]

Well, heck, I have seen UFOs. That doesn't mean they were extraterrestrial. It just means I couldn't turn them into IFOs (or into something even more prosaic, like reflected lights).

Another way to look at it would be that there have been sightings of a UFO by Packman97, rsvman, Trublu, bundabergdevil's father, all members of DBR, a small online community. I realize nobody is saying these are ET but they are saying they have seen a UFO. I have seen some unexplainable things in the sky at night but nothing that would make me post about it on a website. Trublu was in the Navy in the 70s and saw a UFO do some pretty amazing maneuvers, he taped the radar event and presented it to his superior who told him to forget about it and let it go. Per bundabergdevil's father one night they (USAF) picked up something similar to what Trublu described that they couldn't explain --- within 24 hours high ranking officials they had never seen in their life showed up and confiscated all the relevant files and data, then left. That seems a little over the top for what is probably an easily explained occurrence, no?

Per the Reagan sighting "It was a fairly steady light until it began to accelerate. Then it appeared to elongate. Then the light took off. It went up at a 45-degree angle-at a high rate of speed. Everyone on the plane was surprised. . . . The UFO went from a normal cruise speed to a fantastic speed instantly. If you give an airplane power, it will accelerate-but not like a hot rod, and that's what this was like." This was in 1974, no doubt a weather balloon or swamp gas.

Huh? This seems contradictory to me so not sure what is being said here, sorry. (I would like to consider and respond).

I am looking at it from a practical matter. For a craft to be visible, it’s gonna have to be big. Like, really big. The resources to build, fuel, and to provide life-supporting supplies such as food For such a craft would have to make the trip extremely expensive. So I exclude the intergalactic “joy ride” vacationer idea. (Plus, if that was the case, we would have pretty consistent contact). So, we’re talking a major undertaking by a planetary government or an off-world Elon Musk sending these things to us. If so, why would they not make contact after all that time and enormous expenditure of resources?

Then if reports are to believed, there are multiple ship configurations and different descriptions of aliens. So, we’re getting single or rare visits from multiple species — and none of them made contact?

I am very interested in science. And my skepticism does not come from religion — I’m a Joseph Campbell man in that regard. Wanting to see a logical construct is my field, and I have trouble seeing it here when one considers the practical aspects of the phenomena.

Again, I mean it all respectfully. I am more than open to being proven wrong. But when we go from proof to belief, well — which view is relying on religion/myth?

I hope this all comes across the way it is intended.

(btw the bold header on top must be a typo from the body — not sure where it came from and cannot delete).

Well, if we knew that they wouldn't be unidentified, now would they?

Look, I get it. You're a True Believer and your persistence is admirable, I suppose. But you've been rehashing the same narrative for a couple of weeks now and haven't brought anyone round to your point of view because they are just too many holes in that narrative. It strains credulity way past the breaking point to think that technologically advanced aliens have been visiting Earth for 75 years or so without any discernible motive, without any attempt to contact anyone in authority, without any attempt to explain themselves, without leaving any physical evidence.

We have umpteen gazillion satellites in orbit, capable of finding something the size of a book. But we can't see them. Cloaking devices? These guys are hiding from us until they suddenly decide they aren't? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Sailors used to think manatees were mermaids for crying out loud.

As Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We have way more of the first than of the second.

If anyone is really interested in this and hasn't listened to the Lex Fridman (Research scientist at MIT) podcast with Commander Fravor I think that needs to happen to really move any needles. I think I'm coming across as a fanboy and doing a poor job at highlighting the incredible evidence involved in the USS Nimitz case in particular. After listening to the podcast you don't need to be a believer but you should have become curious enough to have had your needle moved.

There are three logical parts to the ET/UFO issue IMO:

1. The first part - are there UFOs?
2. The second part – are the UFO ET or man made?
3. The third part – if ET UFO, why are they here?

The first part is undeniable right? I hope we can all agree on that, as there is a preponderance of evidence of Unidentified Flying Objects.

The second part is are the UFO ET or manmade? This part is supposedly debatable. IMO this is where if you believe in our current understanding of science, the laws of physics, than these are not manmade as they are not obeying our laws of physics. Again we have expert eyewitnesses and advanced radar confirming this. If not ET, than we have a secret black ops program that nobody in the world knows about operating with their own laws of physics. I will claim everyone's favorite, Occam's razor with that point.

The third part is why are ET/UFO here? This to me is really the only part that is unknown and seems to be where everyone gets stuck. The distances are too far for travel. What would be their motivations? The whole thing doesn't make sense. But to argue the third part you have to get past the first and second parts of the ET/UFO issue. Even so, once you get to part 3 why does it need to make sense to be plausible? If parts 1 and 2 are true than part three is what scientists/governments should be trying to understand.

I really like Lex Fridman's comments at the beginning and end of the podcast with Commander Fravor. At the end Lex talks about how sad it would be if these were ET UFOs and humanity, science in particular, wasn't interested.

[Wander]

highly trained experts

You keep throwing the term "experts" around. And you're right that there are experts on the subject of aliens. But I don't think they're the people you think they are. They're scientists looking for signatures of microscopic life on Mars, Venus, Europa, and Enceladus or looking for signatures of interesting gasses in the atmospheres of planets around other stars.

[OldPhiKap]

There are three logical parts to the ET/UFO issue IMO:

1. The first part - are there UFOs? . . . .
   

The first part is undeniable right? I hope we can all agree on that, as there is a preponderance of evidence of Unidentified Flying Objects.

Respectfully, cannot agree. Unidentified visual observations does not necessarily equate to unidentified physical crafts in my mind.

Mirages in the desert are not unknown. It doesn’t make them physical objects.

But again, perhaps the level of proof I seek is not reasonable. I’m willing to concede that possibility.

[jimsumner]

How many eye-witness accounts of ghosts have we had over the centuries? It's a rhetorical question. But if we believe eye-witness accounts, don't we have to accept the existence of ghosts? And the Loch Ness Monster? And Sasquatch? And so many other things described by eye-witness accounts that almost certainly are something else.

Does anyone really believe in the existence of ghosts? And I realize I might regret asking that question.

[bundabergdevil]

How many eye-witness accounts of ghosts have we had over the centuries? It's a rhetorical question. But if we believe eye-witness accounts, don't we have to accept the existence of ghosts? And the Loch Ness Monster? And Sasquatch? And so many other things described by eye-witness accounts that almost certainly are something else.

Does anyone really believe in the existence of ghosts? And I realize I might regret asking that question.

Don't play.

[ragamuffin]

I don't know of any ghosts that have been recorded on military grade radar, camera and sensors, or that get coverage in the NYT or that have public (as opposed to secret) government agencies created for their study.
I'm not a true believer - far from it - but if you look at the military footage and listen to the highly decorated pilots that recorded them, it seems there is "extraordinary evidence" that unidentified crafts exist. That's where reasonable conclusions from the evidence ends, at least for me.

I have no opinion about aliens, but our inability to glean alien motives for their visits is not good evidence they do not exist. The fact that ants cannot unerstand why humans keep passing by their world has no bearing on our existence.

I cannot believe that my first post on DBR after all these years is on the UFO thread! I'm really just here for the hoops and coronavirus updates, I swear.

[OldPhiKap]

I cannot believe that my first post on DBR after all these years is on the UFO thread! I'm really just here for the hoops and coronavirus updates, I swear.

Sporks your way for surfacing! Welcome to the conversation!

[sagegrouse]

Respectfully, cannot agree. Unidentified visual observations does not necessarily equate to unidentified physical crafts in my mind.

Mirages in the desert are not unknown. It doesn’t make them physical objects.

But again, perhaps the level of proof I seek is not reasonable. I’m willing to concede that possibility.

I think this is a fun thread. That said, my problem with the extraterrestrial discussion is that the concept of alien beings is a projection by humans based on their current experiences on Earth. It is just "story-telling," and it's been going on since Galileo's discoveries, I expect. There are unknown phenomena, to be sure. But somehow connecting these to an alien civilization is just pure imagination. And then we try to imagine a political context in which they would visit Earth. OK -- but remember -- this is just fantasy.

[OldPhiKap]

I think this is a fun thread. That said, my problem with the extraterrestrial discussion is that the concept of alien beings is a projection by humans based on their current experiences on Earth. It is just "story-telling," and it's been going on since Galileo's discoveries, I expect. There are unknown phenomena, to be sure. But somehow connecting these to an alien civilization is just pure imagination. And then we try to imagine a political context in which they would visit Earth. OK -- but remember -- this is just fantasy.

Ezekiel describes a UFO according to some, and he lived roughly 600 BC.

[jimsumner]

I don't know of any ghosts that have been recorded on military grade radar, camera and sensors, or that get coverage in the NYT or that have public (as opposed to secret) government agencies created for their study.
I'm not a true believer - far from it - but if you look at the military footage and listen to the highly decorated pilots that recorded them, it seems there is "extraordinary evidence" that unidentified crafts exist. That's where reasonable conclusions from the evidence ends, at least for me.

I have no opinion about aliens, but our inability to glean alien motives for their visits is not good evidence they do not exist. The fact that ants cannot unerstand why humans keep passing by their world has no bearing on our existence.

I cannot believe that my first post on DBR after all these years is on the UFO thread! I'm really just here for the hoops and coronavirus updates, I swear.

Ghost Hunters has been on TV for 15 years "proving" the existence of paranormal activities. They have audio and video recordings, eye-witness accounts and all sorts of other devices that confirm the existence of ghosts to people inclined to accept this "proof" at face value.

[whereinthehellami]

Respectfully, cannot agree. Unidentified visual observations does not necessarily equate to unidentified physical crafts in my mind.

Mirages in the desert are not unknown. It doesn’t make them physical objects.

But again, perhaps the level of proof I seek is not reasonable. I’m willing to concede that possibility.

Is this in response to the USS Nimitz case in 2004? Not sure but lets focus on that case anyway. You have the USS Princeton, a missile cruiser with state of the art radar seeing UFOs, sometimes 10 at a time and up to a 100 sightings over the course of two weeks. You have pilots on the USS Nimitz instructed to interrupt their training to investigate a UFO. Keep in mind they are about to be deployed to the middle east. This isn't a hey, while you are not doing anything why don't you go check out a curiosity. Commander Fravor finds the white tic tac UFO because it is above a disturbance in the water on a perfectly calm day. The water disturbance stops when the UFO changes altitude to interreact with Commander Fravor. Commander Fravor uses advanced radar pods to target the UFO. The UFO jams (interferes) the signal. Another fighter jet interacts with the UFO and captures infrared radar video showing the object. The infrared video only captures things with a heat signature. The tic tac UFO was eye witnessed by four different pilots with their own eyes, at different altitudes and at different times. All 4 pilots said this was a physical object.

As Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We have way more of the first than of the second.

I would say that this is not true for anyone with an open and curious mind. There is a lot of credible evidence out there. What is your response to the USS Nimitz case? Did you look into it, listen to the Lex Fridman podcast linked above. If not, than of course your position will never change. If you did, than how do you explain it. Other than saying it is unidentified. The USS Nimitz UFO case 100% happened based on the undeniable evidence. If you have looked into it and think the UFO is deniable than you are more of a conspiracy theorist than I am.

So, the UFO is either man made or ET. As Commander Fravor said in the podcast, if it is man made the military would have been all over it. If it was Chinese or Russian than they are so far ahead of us that it would be a huge national security issue. There was no way it was one of ours (black ops) as they wouldn't endanger $50 million fighter jets by operating in the area. Which leaves us with ET. The UFO could be ET driven or ET controlled (advanced probe). Either way an extraordinary event with extraordinary evidence, thusly satisfying Carl Sagan's outdated quote.

I don't know of any ghosts that have been recorded on military grade radar, camera and sensors, or that get coverage in the NYT or that have public (as opposed to secret) government agencies created for their study.
I'm not a true believer - far from it - but if you look at the military footage and listen to the highly decorated pilots that recorded them, it seems there is "extraordinary evidence" that unidentified crafts exist. That's where reasonable conclusions from the evidence ends, at least for me.

I have no opinion about aliens, but our inability to glean alien motives for their visits is not good evidence they do not exist. The fact that ants cannot unerstand why humans keep passing by their world has no bearing on our existence.

I cannot believe that my first post on DBR after all these years is on the UFO thread! I'm really just here for the hoops and coronavirus updates, I swear.

Welcome to the jungle. Why no opinion on ET? Do you think my logic on the USS Nimitz case is a bridge too far?

I think this is a fun thread. That said, my problem with the extraterrestrial discussion is that the concept of alien beings is a projection by humans based on their current experiences on Earth. It is just "story-telling," and it's been going on since Galileo's discoveries, I expect. There are unknown phenomena, to be sure. But somehow connecting these to an alien civilization is just pure imagination. And then we try to imagine a political context in which they would visit Earth. OK -- but remember -- this is just fantasy.

I'm not sure where you are going with this? How would you relate those thoughts to the USS Nimitz UFO case? That the pilots and radar operators are projecting …a white tic tac based on their limited earthly experiences? In my case I would probably see a beer

[budwom]

I've seen people become ghosts when the check appears at a restaurant.

[sagegrouse]

Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse
I think this is a fun thread. That said, my problem with the extraterrestrial discussion is that the concept of alien beings is a projection by humans based on their current experiences on Earth. It is just "story-telling," and it's been going on since Galileo's discoveries, I expect. There are unknown phenomena, to be sure. But somehow connecting these to an alien civilization is just pure imagination. And then we try to imagine a political context in which they would visit Earth. OK -- but remember -- this is just fantasy.

From Whereintheheallami -- I'm not sure where you are going with this? How would you relate those thoughts to the USS Nimitz UFO case? That the pilots and radar operators are projecting …a white tic tac based on their limited earthly experiences? In my case I would probably see a beer

Totally anomalous physical phenomena. Electronic intercepts reveal objects that seem to defy the laws of physics, aeronautics and so forth.

But what-the-hell does this have to do with "alien beings?" I gave you the Ivory-billed Woodpecker example, which took a couple of years to unravel. Even then, every birder in the swamps of the South sees a Pileated Woodpecker and thinks, "It could be an Ivory-billed." But the physical phenomena in your examples are anomalous and are not evidence of any specific thing, much less alien beings. And we humans tend to project "extra-terrestrial" on such things, imagining whatever is necessary to be consistent with the observations.

And we don't know what we don't know with respect to outlying observations from known physical phenomena. There could be a million other explanations that we are not knowledgeable enough to describe.

And with respect to the Nimitz observations, it would be helpful to have multiple incidents of such occurrences, so we could do some cross-checking. But I'm afraid establishing ET's will require some moment like "Take me to your leader."

Anyway, a fun thread, and you asked where I was going with my various right-angled comments.

[DevilHorse]

Time to bring in the experts! (there are experts?)

https://www.space.com/unidentified-a...e=notification

Larry
DevilHorse