UAP & ET - Do you believe?

[Phredd3]

The 75 years is more about undeniable (expert testimony, radar, pictures, video) sightings of UFOs.

Since the rest of this post and a number earlier posts in this thread engage in some rather detailed speculation and conjecture about everything from what aliens might be doing on Earth, to what our own governments motivations might be in releasing UFO sighting information, to how it is that photos of supposedly alien craft never seem to be clear, all the way up to and including what undiscovered principles of physics there might be, I'll engage in one more piece of speculation that would seem to be a shorter route to encompass all the others: What if these sightings ARE deniable?

People have been misobserving things for thousands of years. Why are cumulative sightings of things that are a) unidentified, and b) flying, necessarily believable? There have been lots of terrestrial observations that don't add up in the end. Sasquatch, Nessie, Chupacabra, Yeti, dozens and dozens of supposedly haunted houses - exemplars abound. Weird sights on land tend to become tied to their location, while weird sights that appear to be airborne suddenly are not. That doesn't make them any more unified, nor any more credible. There will always be gaps in our knowledge, and wild speculations about the laws of physics and the existence of intelligent life "checking in" on us or secretly communicating with governments (something that would be exceedingly hard to do in secret for any length of time) don't actually fill the knowledge gaps.

To borrow a phrase from the elections thread, the six examples you've sighted have not moved the needle for me.

[mkirsh]

Since the rest of this post and a number earlier posts in this thread engage in some rather detailed speculation and conjecture about everything from what aliens might be doing on Earth, to what our own governments motivations might be in releasing UFO sighting information, to how it is that photos of supposedly alien craft never seem to be clear, all the way up to and including what undiscovered principles of physics there might be, I'll engage in one more piece of speculation that would seem to be a shorter route to encompass all the others: What if these sightings ARE deniable?

People have been misobserving things for thousands of years. Why are cumulative sightings of things that are a) unidentified, and b) flying, necessarily believable? There have been lots of terrestrial observations that don't add up in the end. Sasquatch, Nessie, Chupacabra, Yeti, dozens and dozens of supposedly haunted houses - exemplars abound. Weird sights on land tend to become tied to their location, while weird sights that appear to be airborne suddenly are not. That doesn't make them any more unified, nor any more credible. There will always be gaps in our knowledge, and wild speculations about the laws of physics and the existence of intelligent life "checking in" on us or secretly communicating with governments (something that would be exceedingly hard to do in secret for any length of time) don't actually fill the knowledge gaps.

To borrow a phrase from the elections thread, the six examples you've sighted have not moved the needle for me.

Those are obviously aliens

[TruBlu]

Aliens in disguise would be the first ones to deny that UFO’s are real. Just saying. 😉

[rsvman]

Aliens in disguise would be the first ones to deny that UFO’s are real. Just saying. 😉

Are you implying that Phredd3 is an alien? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Phredd3]

Are you implying that Phredd3 is an alien? Inquiring minds want to know.

I've been outered.

[whereinthehellami]

Since the rest of this post and a number earlier posts in this thread engage in some rather detailed speculation and conjecture about everything from what aliens might be doing on Earth, to what our own governments motivations might be in releasing UFO sighting information, to how it is that photos of supposedly alien craft never seem to be clear, all the way up to and including what undiscovered principles of physics there might be, I'll engage in one more piece of speculation that would seem to be a shorter route to encompass all the others: What if these sightings ARE deniable?

People have been misobserving things for thousands of years. Why are cumulative sightings of things that are a) unidentified, and b) flying, necessarily believable? There have been lots of terrestrial observations that don't add up in the end. Sasquatch, Nessie, Chupacabra, Yeti, dozens and dozens of supposedly haunted houses - exemplars abound. Weird sights on land tend to become tied to their location, while weird sights that appear to be airborne suddenly are not. That doesn't make them any more unified, nor any more credible. There will always be gaps in our knowledge, and wild speculations about the laws of physics and the existence of intelligent life "checking in" on us or secretly communicating with governments (something that would be exceedingly hard to do in secret for any length of time) don't actually fill the knowledge gaps.

To borrow a phrase from the elections thread, the six examples you've sighted have not moved the needle for me.

For the people who say that after the six cases, the needle to believing hasn't moved, I'm curious how they explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt cases. These cases were not related in anyway, one was on the west coast and the other was on the east coast. And they were separated by 11 years. The UFOs are not even similar in shape or description.

In both of these cases you have expert testimony and video of radar showing UFOs. The expert testimony includes expertly trained pilots and radar technicians. These pilots saw the UFOs in person and on their radar. The radar technicians on the ships corroborated their radar with the pilot's radar. These incidents took place over weeks with hundreds of sightings (pilots/radar).

In the case of the USS Nimitz, Commander Fravor was sent to interact with a UFO that was on the ship's radar at the time he was set to take off. Commander Fravor saw the tic-tac interacting with something under the water, recognize him, interact with him, and then after a brief dance, the UFO defied physics and was gone in a blink of an eye. Commander Fravor had another plane monitoring from a higher altitude and see/corroborate what he saw. Commander Fravor was part of the Black aces and his group were trained observers. Trained to identify all manner of flying objects, and manage a 50 million dollar jet. His group was finishing off training for active deployment, everything was fine tuned. These were the elite of the US Navy. Commander Fravor has no doubt that what he saw was not anything that man in its current state is capable of doing/understanding.

In the case of the USS Roosevelt you have military trained pilots and radar making the same claim. Expertly trained pilots observing and interacting with UFOs over the course of weeks during their military operations. Radar technicians on ships corroborating the pilots accounts with their radar observations. Related to the USS Roosevelt incident, one pilot saw a UFO fly so close that he could see that it was a cube inside a sphere and that it almost hit him. Meaning there was no way that it was our military or black ops project as they would not fly within military operations.

In both cases you have expertly trained pilots and radar technicians confirming that these UFO are not following the laws of physics. There are no visible signs of propulsion, they are able to hover and move off in any direction at incredible speeds, achieving hypersonic speeds.

The radars on these jets and ships are state of the art. And in these events they are all confirming each other. There is no chance that they are not seeing what they are seeing.

So, to the non-needle movers, how do you explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt incidents?

[jimsumner]

For the people who say that after the six cases, the needle to believing hasn't moved, I'm curious how they explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt cases. These cases were not related in anyway, one was on the west coast and the other was on the east coast. And they were separated by 11 years. The UFOs are not even similar in shape or description.

In both of these cases you have expert testimony and video of radar showing UFOs. The expert testimony includes expertly trained pilots and radar technicians. These pilots saw the UFOs in person and on their radar. The radar technicians on the ships corroborated their radar with the pilot's radar. These incidents took place over weeks with hundreds of sightings (pilots/radar).

In the case of the USS Nimitz, Commander Fravor was sent to interact with a UFO that was on the ship's radar at the time he was set to take off. Commander Fravor saw the tic-tac interacting with something under the water, recognize him, interact with him, and then after a brief dance, the UFO defied physics and was gone in a blink of an eye. Commander Fravor had another plane monitoring from a higher altitude and see/corroborate what he saw. Commander Fravor was part of the Black aces and his group were trained observers. Trained to identify all manner of flying objects, and manage a 50 million dollar jet. His group was finishing off training for active deployment, everything was fine tuned. These were the elite of the US Navy. Commander Fravor has no doubt that what he saw was not anything that man in its current state is capable of doing/understanding.

In the case of the USS Roosevelt you have military trained pilots and radar making the same claim. Expertly trained pilots observing and interacting with UFOs over the course of weeks during their military operations. Radar technicians on ships corroborating the pilots accounts with their radar observations. Related to the USS Roosevelt incident, one pilot saw a UFO fly so close that he could see that it was a cube inside a sphere and that it almost hit him. Meaning there was no way that it was our military or black ops project as they would not fly within military operations.

In both cases you have expertly trained pilots and radar technicians confirming that these UFO are not following the laws of physics. There are no visible signs of propulsion, they are able to hover and move off in any direction at incredible speeds, achieving hypersonic speeds.

The radars on these jets and ships are state of the art. And in these events they are all confirming each other. There is no chance that they are not seeing what they are seeing.

So, to the non-needle movers, how do you explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt incidents?

Either the world's governments have conspired to keep secret the biggest story in history or there are other, more mundane explanations.

I think Occam's Razor applies here.

[sagegrouse]

For the people who say that after the six cases, the needle to believing hasn't moved, I'm curious how they explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt cases. These cases were not related in anyway, one was on the west coast and the other was on the east coast. And they were separated by 11 years. The UFOs are not even similar in shape or description.

In both of these cases you have expert testimony and video of radar showing UFOs. The expert testimony includes expertly trained pilots and radar technicians. These pilots saw the UFOs in person and on their radar. The radar technicians on the ships corroborated their radar with the pilot's radar. These incidents took place over weeks with hundreds of sightings (pilots/radar).

In the case of the USS Nimitz, Commander Fravor was sent to interact with a UFO that was on the ship's radar at the time he was set to take off. Commander Fravor saw the tic-tac interacting with something under the water, recognize him, interact with him, and then after a brief dance, the UFO defied physics and was gone in a blink of an eye. Commander Fravor had another plane monitoring from a higher altitude and see/corroborate what he saw. Commander Fravor was part of the Black aces and his group were trained observers. Trained to identify all manner of flying objects, and manage a 50 million dollar jet. His group was finishing off training for active deployment, everything was fine tuned. These were the elite of the US Navy. Commander Fravor has no doubt that what he saw was not anything that man in its current state is capable of doing/understanding.

In the case of the USS Roosevelt you have military trained pilots and radar making the same claim. Expertly trained pilots observing and interacting with UFOs over the course of weeks during their military operations. Radar technicians on ships corroborating the pilots accounts with their radar observations. Related to the USS Roosevelt incident, one pilot saw a UFO fly so close that he could see that it was a cube inside a sphere and that it almost hit him. Meaning there was no way that it was our military or black ops project as they would not fly within military operations.

In both cases you have expertly trained pilots and radar technicians confirming that these UFO are not following the laws of physics. There are no visible signs of propulsion, they are able to hover and move off in any direction at incredible speeds, achieving hypersonic speeds.

The radars on these jets and ships are state of the art. And in these events they are all confirming each other. There is no chance that they are not seeing what they are seeing.

So, to the non-needle movers, how do you explain the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt incidents?

Simple: the leap between "unexplained terrestrial phenomena" and "extraterrestrial beings" covers a distance of about 100 light-years.

[whereinthehellami]

Either the world's governments have conspired to keep secret the biggest story in history or there are other, more mundane explanations.

I think Occam's Razor applies here.

What could be filed under more mundane explanations?

Simple: the leap between "unexplained terrestrial phenomena" and "extraterrestrial beings" covers a distance of about 100 light-years.

If they have to travel that far and we have a very limited understanding of how things work. 200 years ago we were without cars, planes, and even telephones. Imagine us or a civilization a thousand years more advanced. Keeping in mind that technology growth has been exponential, not linear.

[camion]

What could be filed under more mundane explanations?



If they have to travel that far and we have a very limited understanding of how things work. 200 years ago we were without cars, planes, and even telephones. Imagine us or a civilization a thousand years more advanced. Keeping in mind that technology growth has been exponential, not linear.

1. Swamp gas.
But more seriously, mis-identifidation for many of them. It happens all the time. When I was a youngster people in my town say a UFO that was later identified as Venus.
Hallucination. People see thing all of the time.

2. What evidence is there that these phenomena have traveled interstellar or interplanetary distances? We see them here so they must come from way out there?

My problem with identifying UFOs as visitors from other stars is that the "U" is no longer there and the Identification part is a guess.

[OldPhiKap]

I am still unclear on why an alien race would cross the galaxy for a quick fly-by and nothing more. Seems like an enormous expenditure of resources for absolutely no reason.

If they wanted to observe us, wouldn't they have just put a satelite into orbit forever ago? Why fly here personally to just skitter off once detected?

Again, I have no problem with the concept that we are not the only life form in the entire infinite universe. To the contrary, I would be staggered if that was truly the case. And I guess I have no problem with the theoretical concept that some form of life has been able to transverse the time-space coninuum in a manner we are yet to understand, such that a visitation was hypothetically possible. But a life form intelligent enough to do that would by definition have some form of advanced logical thought to understand the science, and everything in our human logical experience is to explore unknown words deeply to further that knowlege -- not to just fly by and take pictures or whatever these alleged craft are doing in our lower atmosphere.

You don't drive all the way to the Grand Canyon to just sit out by the gate, and you don't go to a concert to stand in the lobby. Think of the cost and expense to get here, and the relatively simple technology of making contact if you already possess the wherewithall to locate us and travel here. It just does not make logical sense to me.

[TruBlu]

I am still unclear on why an alien race would cross the galaxy for a quick fly-by and nothing more. Seems like an enormous expenditure of resources for absolutely no reason.

If they wanted to observe us, wouldn't they have just put a satelite into orbit forever ago? Why fly here personally to just skitter off once detected?

Again, I have no problem with the concept that we are not the only life form in the entire infinite universe. To the contrary, I would be staggered if that was truly the case. And I guess I have no problem with the theoretical concept that some form of life has been able to transverse the time-space coninuum in a manner we are yet to understand, such that a visitation was hypothetically possible. But a life form intelligent enough to do that would by definition have some form of advanced logical thought to understand the science, and everything in our human logical experience is to explore unknown words deeply to further that knowlege -- not to just fly by and take pictures or whatever these alleged craft are doing in our lower atmosphere.

You don't drive all the way to the Grand Canyon to just sit out by the gate, and you don't go to a concert to stand in the lobby. Think of the cost and expense to get here, and the relatively simple technology of making contact if you already possess the wherewithall to locate us and travel here. It just does not make logical sense to me.

They could be searching for natural resources and are sophisticated to be able to take them without our knowledge. You do remember the toilet paper shortage from just last spring, don't you? Surely, humans wouldn't be stupid enough to . . . oh, never mind.

[OldPhiKap]

They could be searching for natural resources and are sophisticated to be able to take them without our knowledge. You do remember the toilet paper shortage from just last spring, don't you? Surely, humans wouldn't be stupid enough to . . . oh, never mind.

Maybe they took the Murder Hornets with them, too. Big Brothers looking out for us.

[mkirsh]

1. Swamp gas.
But more seriously, mis-identifidation for many of them. It happens all the time. When I was a youngster people in my town say a UFO that was later identified as Venus.
Hallucination. People see thing all of the time.

2. What evidence is there that these phenomena have traveled interstellar or interplanetary distances? We see them here so they must come from way out there?

My problem with identifying UFOs as visitors from other stars is that the "U" is no longer there and the Identification part is a guess.

Or we could all be in the matrix or a simulation and they could just be programming glitches.

[Phredd3]

Or we could all be in the matrix or a simulation and they could just be programming glitches.

So that's what Venelope does in her spare time stuck away in that mountain. I always wondered.

[whereinthehellami]

1. Swamp gas.
But more seriously, mis-identifidation for many of them. It happens all the time. When I was a youngster people in my town say a UFO that was later identified as Venus.
Hallucination. People see thing all of the time.

So in the case of the USS Nimitz and the USS Roosevelt you have the most highly trained experts at identifying flying objects and advanced technology showing you hundreds of UFOs over the course of weeks and they are wrong?

I am still unclear on why an alien race would cross the galaxy for a quick fly-by and nothing more. Seems like an enormous expenditure of resources for absolutely no reason.

If they wanted to observe us, wouldn't they have just put a satelite into orbit forever ago? Why fly here personally to just skitter off once detected?

IMO there have been so many sightings for so long that we are over thinking this. Just because we don't understand it doesn't mean that it is implausible. Because there have been so many sightings for so long, proves to me that the distance/travel is not as big a deal or as costly as we think it is.

You don't drive all the way to the Grand Canyon to just sit out by the gate

People most certainly do that, in large numbers, all the time. People do insane things, all the time. People drive from across the country to watch the leaves change color. People come across the world to see the Cherry Blossoms in full bloom in Washington Dc. People are traveling long and costly distances for changes in trees/plants.

I can only imagine what alien cultures would think of us from a far and close up. OMG, my mind is blown just thinking of the entertainment of watching us progress or devolve. And just maybe they don't find us so entertaining. Maybe they see us as dangerous, they see the nuclear weapons and the people who have the keys to launching these devastating weapons.

Or we could all be in the matrix or a simulation and they could just be programming glitches.

This is the part I struggle with. It ET UFOs exist, which IMO they most certainly do, and if they are so advanced than we should be in a simulation based on the pure numbers of our universe.

[OldPhiKap]

People most certainly do that, in large numbers, all the time. People do insane things, all the time. People drive from across the country to watch the leaves change color. People come across the world to see the Cherry Blossoms in full bloom in Washington Dc. People are traveling long and costly distances for changes in trees/plants.

I probably should clarify that you can't see the Grand Canyon from the gate. It's not like driving somewhere to see nature (like changing leaves or cherry blossoms).

But are aliens just pleasure-cruising here to look at the flora and fauna? Given the sheer exenditure in resources to get a ship here from elsewhere in the galaxy, I find it even harder to believe that we are just an intergalactic tourist attraction.

I think your argument -- that we see a lot of UFOs, and therefore they must be real -- kind of assumes its own questionable premise. We have a number of reported sightings of things that are difficult to explain. It is a leap to conclude, though, that those things must per force be alien space ships. (To me, at least).

I am enjoying this topic and your posts, it is an area in which I have great interest. Unfortunately for me, in many aspects of my life, I am very much the Doubting Thomas. Not proud of it, but I recognize it as a trait of mine.

[sagegrouse]

I probably should clarify that you can't see the Grand Canyon from the gate. It's not like driving somewhere to see nature (like changing leaves or cherry blossoms).

But are aliens just pleasure-cruising here to look at the flora and fauna? Given the sheer exenditure in resources to get a ship here from elsewhere in the galaxy, I find it even harder to believe that we are just an intergalactic tourist attraction.

I think your argument -- that we see a lot of UFOs, and therefore they must be real -- kind of assumes its own questionable premise. We have a number of reported sightings of things that are difficult to explain. It is a leap to conclude, though, that those things must per force be alien space ships. (To me, at least).

I am enjoying this topic and your posts, it is an area in which I have great interest. Unfortunately for me, in many aspects of my life, I am very much the Doubting Thomas. Not proud of it, but I recognize it as a trait of mine.

I am reminded of the rediscovery of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker in a wildlife refuge in Arkansas. It was announced by the Cornell Lab of Ornithology in April 2005. There was video footage from a hunter that proved it. Suddenly, "everyone" was headed to Arkansas and other former habitats like the Pearl River in LA and MS, and elsewhere. There were many sightings reported and it seemed that the Ivory-billed had survived. But funny, they were all wrong. The birding aces at the Cape May Observatory did some analysis of the video and decided it was the somewhat similar Pileated Woodpecker. And then, the leaders of the various forays started requiring that two people go together, as opposed to individuals. The sightings disappeared. Alas, it very likely that the Ivory-billed perished in the 1940's with the last destruction of bottom-land forests along the Mississippi River.

Now this is reporting by trained observers (albeit overcome by enthusiasm) who knew what they were looking for -- photos, drawings, field marks -- and dozens and dozens of observers, as well as the most prestigious academic institution, and they all got it wrong.

Therefore, ....

[whereinthehellami]

Either the world's governments have conspired to keep secret the biggest story in history or there are other, more mundane explanations.

I think Occam's Razor applies here.

Our government released the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt files, not much of a secret. President Carter and President Reagan both personally saw UFOs.

In 1999 the French came out with the COMETA report. The following is extracted from an opening statement contained in the report from French Air Force General Denis Letty and gives valuable background data on Cometa and its findings. “The accumulation of well-documented sightings made by credible witnesses forces us to consider from now on all of the hypotheses regarding the origin of unidentified flying objects, or UFOs, and the extraterrestrial hypothesis, in particular.” COMETA members included: Air Force General Bruno Le Moine, weapons engineer General Pierre Bescond and Chief of Police Denis Blancher. Those who contributed to the study included: Edmond Campagnac, former Technical Director of Air France; Squadron Commander Michel Perrier; and Air Force General Joseph Domage. Among the subjects covered within the report are: the testimony of French pilots who had seen UFOs; close encounters in France; aeronautical cases from around the world; radar-based UFO incidents; and political, religious and scientific implications relating to the UFO mystery. The July 1947 events at Roswell, New Mexico are also covered in an appendix titled “The Roswell Affair – Disinformation.” This section makes a valuable contribution to the way in which the U.S. government’s program of disinformation has been utilized to successfully diffuse interest in, and confuse the truth surrounding, the Roswell UFO crash.

Three prominent Russians; Vladimir Azhazha (former navy officer), Felix Ziegel (Soviet researcher, Doctor of Science and docent of Cosmology at the Moscow Aviation Institute), and Marina Popovich (Soviet Air Force colonel, engineer, and decorated Soviet test pilot) have talked openly about the Russian UFO program. Marina Popovich spoke about her experience with UFOs in her book titled UFO Glasnost (published in 2003 in Germany) and in public lectures and interviews. She claimed that the Soviet military and civilian pilots had confirmed 3000 UFO sightings and that the Soviet Air Force and KGB had recovered fragments of five crashed UFOs. The crash sites were Tunguska (1908), Novosibirsk, Tallinn, Ordzhonikidze and Dalnegorsk (1986).

My tenth case (upcoming) involves a Mexican air force sighting with radar corroboration. The Mexican government released these findings.

So, no I don’t think there is a great government conspiracy. Do you think the more logical explanation is that thousands of people and multiple governments are lying or that there are UFOs regularly visiting the earth? I'll go with Ocam's Razor myself and say that thousands of credible witnesses and governments are not lying and that there is an easily explained phenomenon going on. People might not like it or be comfortable with it but it is plausible and there is tons of evidence.

I probably should clarify that you can't see the Grand Canyon from the gate. It's not like driving somewhere to see nature (like changing leaves or cherry blossoms).

But are aliens just pleasure-cruising here to look at the flora and fauna? Given the sheer expenditure in resources to get a ship here from elsewhere in the galaxy, I find it even harder to believe that we are just an intergalactic tourist attraction.

I think your argument -- that we see a lot of UFOs, and therefore they must be real -- kind of assumes its own questionable premise. We have a number of reported sightings of things that are difficult to explain. It is a leap to conclude, though, that those things must per force be alien space ships. (To me, at least).

I am enjoying this topic and your posts, it is an area in which I have great interest. Unfortunately for me, in many aspects of my life, I am very much the Doubting Thomas. Not proud of it, but I recognize it as a trait of mine.

I think being skeptical is good and just good science. But I think that being a skeptic shows a lack of curiosity in science that is lazy and I feel that for some people the UFO/ET phenomenon hits are their core beliefs in a way that makes them uncomfortable, i.e. their religious convictions. I find it curious that a Vatican astronomer (who knew) thought to weigh in on UFO/ET. Interesting timing?

None of the above was meant for you personally just my 5 cents on skepticism.

[Phredd3]

President Carter and President Reagan both personally saw UFOs.

Well, heck, I have seen UFOs. That doesn't mean they were extraterrestrial. It just means I couldn't turn them into IFOs (or into something even more prosaic, like reflected lights).