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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    One of my favorite scenes from the TV show, "The Big Bang Theory" is when Sheldon and Leonard reminisce about their first room mate contract, and they stipulate that:

    Section 9: If one of the roommates ever invents Time Travel, the first stop has to aim exactly five seconds after this clause of
    the Roommate Agreement was signed.


    Then they wait and get disappointed that they don't re-appear 5 minutes after signing the contact.

    So many TV shows have demonstrated how paradoxes would be created if Time Travel "Backwards" would be able to occur. It is fantasy.

    Of course, Time Travel "Forwards" happens all the time whenever some travels at speeds relative to each other, according to Einstein's Special Relativity.

    As an exaggerated example, identical twin Astronauts Mark and Scott Kelly, with Scott being on the International Space Station traveling at 17.5KMPH for about 520 days. At the end of this, Scott was about 6 minutes younger (or 6 minutes into the future) relative to his identical twin Mark.
    Granted this was a bit more gradual than you may have been thinking (step into a box and being propelled into another time) but you don't have to totally leave town and communication. You can jump on a faster conveyor belt to the future, but you can't go back.

    The movie Intersteller had an interesting take. Matthew McConaughey, and a couple of Astronauts, went to a planet with a large gravitational field, and were propelled into the future (without their aging) by a large number of years. The only problem with the script was that they should have also "felt" the gravity of the planet that affected them if they were to age that much. But, it was all in good fun.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    This brings up interesting possibilities. If Scott were born 5 minutes before Mark, does Scott's trip in space mean that Scott left earth as the elder twin and returned as Mark's baby brother?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    Case #1 - USS Nimitz - 'tic-tac' UFO sighting – 2004

    Case #2 USS Roosevelt - ‘Gimbal’, 'Go Fast' UFO sightings - 2015
    Pilots aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt engage with multiple UFOs, one tiny white speck and one large, dark blob. These UFOs later came to be known respectively as "Go Fast" and "Gimbal."

    While pilots were mid-flight, their aircraft cameras and radar detected seemingly impossible objects flying at hypersonic speeds at altitudes up to 30,00 feet; these mysterious UFOs did so with no visible means of propulsion.

    The objects had "no distinct wing, no distinct tail, no distinct exhaust plume," Lt. Danny Accoin, one of the Navy pilots who reported UFO sightings beginning in 2014, said in the documentary. "It seemed like they were aware of our presence, because they would actively move around us," Lt. Accoin said.

    Lt. Ryan Graves, an F-18 pilot, said that a squadron of UFOs followed his Navy strike group up and down the eastern coast of the U.S. for months. And in March, 2015, after the Roosevelt was deployed to the Arabian Gulf, Graves said the UFOs reappeared.

    "We did have issues with them when we went out to the Middle East," Lt. Graves said.

    Livescience Article with the above pilot quotes.

    Lt. Graves relating another incident in VA Beach – “The pilot and his wingman were flying in tandem about 100 feet apart over the Atlantic east of Virginia Beach when something flew between them, right past the cockpit. It looked to the pilot, Lieutenant Graves said, like a sphere encasing a cube.”

    The incident so spooked the squadron that an aviation flight safety report was filed, Lieutenant Graves said.

    The near miss, he and other pilots interviewed said, angered the squadron, and convinced them that the objects were not part of a classified drone program. Government officials would know fighter pilots were training in the area, they reasoned, and would not send drones to get in the way.

    What was strange, the pilots said, was that the video showed objects accelerating to hypersonic speed, making sudden stops and instantaneous turns — something beyond the physical limits of a human crew.

    “Speed doesn’t kill you,” Lieutenant Graves said. “Stopping does. Or acceleration.”

    Asked what they thought the objects were, the pilots refused to speculate.

    “We have helicopters that can hover,” Lieutenant Graves said. “We have aircraft that can fly at 30,000 feet and right at the surface.” But “combine all that in one vehicle of some type with no jet engine, no exhaust plume.”

    Ny Times article with the above quotes.

    Article breaking down FLIR images.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    "Building a planet and placing it at the right distance to satisfy Bode's law" (Bode's law is illogical reasoning and isn't real in any meaningful sense, by the way) sounds much, much, much more difficult to me than sending probes or spaceships to another star system. And while water and exoplanets are common in the universe, we still don't know if life or environments habitable to Earth-life are. So while I agree with you that invading other planets for "mining" of raw materials doesn't make sense, habitable worlds might be rare and it's easy to see the appeal of seeking them out.
    Well, I was shooting from the hip a bit there, and I was going for a few different ideas at once. There were a lot of thoughts that I didn't include in my two big posts, but I left a few bread crumbs for future posts.

    The idea was that if another civilization ran down their check list (or whatever symbol they use instead of a check) for reasons to visit our planet, and conclude that they want to inhabit the earth for some reason (take over our climate rather than take our dirt and water), then I figured, why not build their own planet closer to home. Perhaps at their own star or a nearby star. Without having a grasp yet on what Dark Matter and Dark Energy are yet, we don't know what we can do with it or how it will influence these questions and outcomes, so I will speculate on other kinds of outcomes that may seem a bit outside the realm of possibility now, but desireable.

    You'd of course have to consider whether they have actually conquered the problems of long-distance space travel. If they were really going to inhabit a new planet, they would have to check out the planet for the new inhabitants first before moving the whole lot of them. That either takes a lot of time, a lot of risk to put everyone on a ship, or takes a lot of resources for a self-contained vessel. You'd also have to be able to take over or peacefully join the planet at the other end. But I digress.

    I was thinking that rather than scouting the universe for a suitable planet, building your own, to your specifications, might work better. Find a younger star, with a gap or slot for a planet, or something you can whittle down perhaps, and do a terraform or build.

    For those uninitiated, Bode's Law suggests that when the gas cloud around a young star, starts to spin and forms into planets around that star, planets will only form at certain places because of gravitational and geometric affects. This will have implications on size and distance of the planets, relative to the size of the star (and presumably the material that is available in the gas cloud). I used Bode's Law in place of the physical laws that would need to be in place for a sustainable planet at a workable distance for our candidate alien race. An advanced civilization might consider making a focussed project out of this nearby (interstellarly speaking) rather than a galactic search which would take more time. If I was creating a planet, would I want or need to create a moon (or two) to generate tides for various reasons. Perhaps to help generate wind and tide, good for crops and biological cycles (as we know it), but probably unnecessary for energy generation for a society this advanced. Make them the right size for a few Total Eclipses though.

    Large assumptions here on what it would take to do such a massive thing, but with nascient tools to deflect asteroids and affect aspects of our own solar system being speculated (retrieving samples from asteroids, etc..). Who knows what a few millenia might bring.

    Larry
    DevilHorse

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    This brings up interesting possibilities. If Scott were born 5 minutes before Mark, does Scott's trip in space mean that Scott left earth as the elder twin and returned as Mark's baby brother?
    I'd say that after that spaceflight, Mark is Scott's younger brother, but Scott is Mark's baby brother.

    Larry
    DevilHorse

  5. #65
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    Feb 2007
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    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    I'd say that after that spaceflight, Mark is Scott's younger brother, but Scott is Mark's baby brother.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    That's even weirder than I had considered in my pondering of relative relativity.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Wherever the wind blows and the leaves dance.
    Case #1 - USS Nimitz - 'tic-tac' UFO sighting – 2004
    Case #2 USS Roosevelt - ‘Gimbal’, 'Go Fast' UFO sightings - 2015

    Case #3 UFO swarm over Washington, DC – 1952
    From July 12-July 29, 1952, orange balls of fire and white tailless fast-moving lights were seen near Washington DC, highlighted by UFOs hovering over the Capitol and White House.

    On July 19, 1952, a Washington National Airport radar-equipped control tower operator observed UFOs flying towards the Capital and said “At this point, other objects appeared in all sectors of the radarscope; when they moved over the White House and the United States Capitol, Barnes called Andrews Air Force Base, located 10 miles from National Airport”.

    Also, on July 19, 1952, on one of National Airport's runways, S.C. Pierman, a Capital Airlines pilot, was waiting in the cockpit of his DC-4 for permission to take off. After spotting what he believed to be a meteor, he was told that the control tower's radar had detected unknown objects closing in on his position. Pierman observed six objects — "white, tailless, fast-moving lights" — over a 14-minute period. Pierman was in radio contact with Barnes during his sighting, and Barnes later related that "each sighting coincided with a pip we could see near his plane. When he reported that the light streaked off at a high speed, it disappeared on our scope."

    At 8:15 p.m. on Saturday, July 26, 1952, a pilot and stewardess on a National Airlines flight into Washington observed some strange lights above their plane. Within minutes, both radar centers at National Airport, and the radar at Andrews AFB, were tracking more unknown objects. USAF master sergeant Charles E. Cummings visually observed the objects at Andrews, he later said that "these lights did not have the characteristics of shooting stars. There was [sic] no trails . . . they traveled faster than any shooting star I have ever seen."

    Meanwhile, Albert M. Chop, the press spokesman for Project Blue Book, arrived at National Airport and, due to security concerns, denied several reporters' requests to photograph the radar screens. He then joined the radar center personnel. By this time (9:30 p.m.) the radar center was picking up unknown objects in every sector. At times the objects traveled slowly; at other times they reversed direction and moved across the radarscope at speeds calculated at up to 7,000 mph (11,250 km/h). At 11:30 p.m., two U.S. Air Force F-94 Starfire jet fighters from New Castle Air Force Base in Delaware arrived over Washington. Captain John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar blips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts. However, his wingman, Lieutenant William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them. He later said that "I tried to make contact with the bogies below 1,000 feet. I was at my maximum speed...I ceased chasing them because I saw no chance of overtaking them." According to Albert Chop, when ground control asked Patterson "if he saw anything", Patterson replied "'I see them now and they're all around me. What should I do?'...And nobody answered, because we didn't know what to tell him."

    Wiki article on DC swarm.

    It was a clear, hot, humid night with very little air traffic, and the controllers at National watched the strange blips amble across their screens. They'd cruise at a leisurely rate of about 100 to 130 miles per hour, then abruptly zoom off in an extraordinary burst of speed.

    "They acted like a bunch of small kids out playing," Barnes, the head controller, wrote a few days later in a piece for a New York newspaper. "It was helter-skelter, as if directed by some innate curiosity. At times, they moved as a group or cluster, at other times as individuals."

    Barnes called his counterparts at Andrews and Bolling to ask if they saw anything unusual on their radar screens. They did. They were getting blips in the same places.

    At Andrews, controller William Brady looked out the control tower window and saw what looked like "an orange ball of fire, trailing a tail." It was, he later told Air Force investigators, "unlike anything I had ever seen before."

    At National, Cocklin looked out his window and saw what he recalls as a "whitish blue light" that emanated from a solid object that was "round with no distinguishing marks such as wings or a nose or a tail." It looked, he says, "like a saucer."

    Washington Post Article on DC swarm with the above excerpts.

    2001 Washington City Paper follow-up article on the Washington DC swarm.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Summerville ,S.C.
    1998 we saw a orange ball towards the Atlantic ocean around 230 am.it pulsated then the pulsating intensified.it went straight up and gone.
    2001 430 am we are heading out to do some offshore fishing.we saw lights under the water come from behind us .we were running 25 knotts or so. The light passed underwater 20 yds off tbe starboard side.maybe a submarine i have no idea if they have lights. Both instances made me very uncomfortable .
    I believe we probably have been visited by other beings.i believe we may have technology that jas been enhanced by other worlds.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Watching carolina Go To HELL!
    I believe in the physics of Star Trek. We haven't discovered warp drive yet, but give us time. No pun intended. OK, yes it was! Wait until 2063 when Zepham Cochrane does! https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Warp_drive Duke engineering discovered cloaking technology a couple of years ago, and the Romulans have been trying to steal it. OK, that was the Chinese.

    Give our civilization a couple hundred more years of scientific discovery at our ever accelerating pace, and we'll get there. IF, and it's a big IF, we don't destroy ourselves first.

    As someone upstream said, Earth has rebooted life a couple of times - just ask your neighborhood dinosaur. And if the universe as we know it is a couple of billion years old, certainly somewhere else, probably many somewhere elses, in the universe another civilization is waaaaaay older, and more advanced, than we are.
    Last edited by OZZIE4DUKE; 09-22-2020 at 03:41 PM.
    Ozzie, your paradigm of optimism!

    Go To Hell carolina, Go To Hell!
    9F 9F 9F
    http://www.EGLEW.com


  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    That's even weirder than I had considered in my pondering of relative relativity.
    Time is relative.

    Think of that the next time you want to clock your brother.

    Larry
    DevilHorse

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZIE4DUKE View Post
    As someone upstream said, Earth has rebooted life a couple of times - just ask your neighborhood dinosaur.
    That's not really true though in the definition of "reboot" that makes sense for this discussion. Life has survived on Earth through multiple extinction events, but as far as we know, we have only made the jump from "non-life" to "life" once.

    The best path forward to figuring this out is not UFOs, but to determine if there's life on Mars, Venus, Europa, or Enceladus – and then figure out if that life has a common ancestor with Earth life or truly has a completely different origin. If the latter, then yes, life must be common in the universe.

  11. #71
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    Feb 2018
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    Durham, NC
    What sources of energy are we tapping for all this cloaking and warping and moving around at stupendous accelerations? Basic physics is still basic physics, and there are no known exceptions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics (which I learned as TANSTAAFL, pronounced Tawn-stoffel, which means There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). It takes a lot of energy to do these things. Where is it coming from?

  12. #72
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    Sep 2007
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    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    What sources of energy are we tapping for all this cloaking and warping and moving around at stupendous accelerations? Basic physics is still basic physics, and there are no known exceptions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics (which I learned as TANSTAAFL, pronounced Tawn-stoffel, which means There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). It takes a lot of energy to do these things. Where is it coming from?
    Maybe an infinite improbability drive?

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    Time is relative.

    Think of that the next time you want to clock your brother.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    And now a song about relativity without wormholes or anything. Just Ray Stevens.

    Linky

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    A lot of reasonable, intelligent people have reported seeing objects in the sky that were unidentified (covering myself a bit here). But have you ever noticed that whenever somebody claims to have actually had contact with an alien or been abducted, or whatever, it's never the concertmaster of the symphony or a cardiovascular surgeon. You never hear this:

    SURGEON: We had a bit of time between the quadruple bypass grafting and the aortic coarctation repair, so we broke scrub and stepped outside the hospital. There, by the helicopter pad, we saw a large disk hovering in the air. Dr. Smith stood up and walked toward it; I tried to stop him, but he was mesmerized and moved forward. In the blink of an eye he turned into a blur and then just disappeared. I have never seen anything like it!


    It's always this:

    Bubba (wearing a Molly Hatchet t-shirt with holes and stains on it): Cletus and I went fishin' in the swamp. Nothin' was bitin' where we was when we first set off, so we went deeper into it. We was just startin' to get a few bites when we seen this big braht disk in the sky. It was jus' hangin' there. Unreal, man. Then it moved over 'til it was raht over our heads. Then, a big laht came down lahk a big-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. laser pointer. I tol' Cletus to move, but he jus' stood there. Purty soon the laht fell on him and then it jus' picked him up, man. Carried him raht up into that thang. Aint never seen anythang lahk it. I figgered I was a goner! But then it jus' flew off, lahk a flash. It was out of saht in about 5 seconds.

    I baited a lahn and cast it in. Fish weren't jus' gonna jump into the boat....Never did see Cletus agin, though.



    Just saying.
    Last edited by rsvman; 09-22-2020 at 05:07 PM.
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    A lot of reasonable, intelligent people have reported seeing objects in the sky that were unidentified (covering myself a bit here). But have you ever noticed that whenever somebody claims to have actually had contact with an alien or been abducted, or whatever, it's never the concertmaster of the symphony or a cardiovascular surgeon. You never hear this:

    SURGEON: We had a bit of time between the quadruple bypass grafting and the aortic coarctation repair, so we broke scrub and stepped outside the hospital. There, by the helicopter pad, we saw a large disk hovering in the air. Dr. Smith stood up and walked toward it; I tried to stop him, but he was mesmerized and moved forward. In the blink of an eye he turned into a blur and then just disappeared. I have never seen anything like it!


    It's always this:

    Bubba: Cletus and I went fishin' in the swamp. Nothin' was bitin' where we was when we first set off, so we went deeper into it. We was just startin' to get a few bites when we seen this big braht disk in the sky. It was jus' hangin' there. Unreal, man. Then it moved over 'til it was raht over our heads. Then, a big laht came down lahk a big-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. laser pointer. I tol' Cletus to move, but he jus' stood there. Purty soon the laht fell on him and then it jus' picked him up, man. Carried him raht up into that thang. Aint never seen anythang lahk it. I figgered I was a goner! But then it jus' flew off, lahk a flash. It was out of saht in about 5 seconds.

    I baited a lahn and cast it in. Fish weren't jus' gonna jump into the boat...Never did see Cletus agin, though.



    Just saying.
    Yeah, surgeons are pretty boring as a group. The Bubba/Cletus crowd lead exciting lives. They go for the gusto and at least a 12-pack*.

    *There is a correlation between beer consumption and alien encounters. Perhaps we need a Hmm Aliens thread.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by camion View Post
    Perhaps we need a Hmm Aliens thread.
    Not enough band width to give that crowd another thread to fill up. 😂

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    What sources of energy are we tapping for all this cloaking and warping and moving around at stupendous accelerations? Basic physics is still basic physics, and there are no known exceptions to the Second Law of Thermodynamics (which I learned as TANSTAAFL, pronounced Tawn-stoffel, which means There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). It takes a lot of energy to do these things. Where is it coming from?
    I had a couple of reactions to your post:

    1) when you said "we", are you an Alien? It is the Aliens that are doing the law breaking, not us earthlings.

    2) Of course, your point is well taken. Energy production will have to keep pace with the advances in science and space exploration. Assuming that earthlings do any of there things, there are considerable boundaries to be crossed. Barring any cold fusion discoveries, there are potentially real fusion discoveries that could provide significant power (Mr. Fusion for the Back To The Future fans). You can find on the internet a number of proposals for long distance, near light travel events, mainly based on constant build-up and transfer of momentum. Thrust for our space ships is basically the transfer of momentum backwards (that fiery column of gas out the back of large rockets) giving conservation of momentum, balancing the rocket momentum forward. Basic Newton's 3rd law of motion stuff. Well, if you gather/pick up space junk along the way, and shoot it out the back, at high speeds, you can increase your speed. Lots of space debris out there. Not a sustainable approach IMHO. But you need matter to eject. Gravity assist does not get you to the speeds we are talking about

    3) I'm imagining that there might be tunneling aspects to be discovered in the future. We know they exist in quantum mechanics. Particles can escape potential wells (boxes). There is a finite possibility of a ball going through a wall; small, but calculable (really). Why not some unknown tunnel, space-time curve that gets you into the tachyon realm. That is fantasy right now, but one can hope. High speeds still leave you much older than when you left. Worm holes seem like a better option. This paragraph is total speculation, but I'm just spitballing that everything doesn't have to be MORE POWER.

    Larry
    DevilHorse

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilHorse View Post
    2) Of course, your point is well taken. Energy production will have to keep pace with the advances in science and space exploration. Assuming that earthlings do any of there things, there are considerable boundaries to be crossed. Barring any cold fusion discoveries, there are potentially real fusion discoveries that could provide significant power (Mr. Fusion for the Back To The Future fans). You can find on the internet a number of proposals for long distance, near light travel events, mainly based on constant build-up and transfer of momentum. Thrust for our space ships is basically the transfer of momentum backwards (that fiery column of gas out the back of large rockets) giving conservation of momentum, balancing the rocket momentum forward. Basic Newton's 3rd law of motion stuff. Well, if you gather/pick up space junk along the way, and shoot it out the back, at high speeds, you can increase your speed. Lots of space debris out there. Not a sustainable approach IMHO. But you need matter to eject. Gravity assist does not get you to the speeds we are talking about
    You are talking about interstellar travel, here, presumably. I'm talking about the unexplained accelerations and decelerations reported in the pieces that have been posted here - and at least one of them suggests that there are NO observable ejections, so the conservation of momentum doesn't apply. Are you saying there is some kind of space warping being used for those movements? And that it does not require much energy to perform?

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Tampa
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    I highly doubt anything you plan to present will convince me, but I'm willing to follow along and see. (By the way, I am taking "extraterrstrials" here in it's conventional meaning of "sentient life forms from planets outside the Earth's solar system". There are other ways to use that expression, so if you intend some other meaning, please specify the definition you are using.
    Right said, Phredd.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    You are talking about interstellar travel, here, presumably. I'm talking about the unexplained accelerations and decelerations reported in the pieces that have been posted here - and at least one of them suggests that there are NO observable ejections, so the conservation of momentum doesn't apply. Are you saying there is some kind of space warping being used for those movements? And that it does not require much energy to perform?
    The term for your observation is an unexplained Impulse = change in Momentum; this a Force acting on a body for a period of time.

    Dealing with the known laws of physics, Newton's First Law (F=MA) says that you need a force to have an acceleration. So, without "ejecting something", or without something to push/pull against (tires on the road, magnetic field to draw on, air to suck) there must be new physics to engage relating forces and propulsion.

    There certainly could be new physics out there. The Universe has been observed to be expanding (accelerating) at a faster rate than can be accounted for. This is one of the sources of the Dark Matter/Energy discussions. Is this part of the Gravity Force? Is this a new Force that we don't understand yet. Gravity is still a young force in terms of our full understanding. Although the other "big 3" forces (nuclear, electric, magnetic) have been unified, gravity still has some asymmetries about it. As many of you are aware, just recently (2017) the Nobel Prize was handed out for the LIGO scientists who found the "sound" of the Black Holes combining in space. This was "proof" of gravity waves. But as of yet, we don't know of Negative Gravity, while the other 3 forces all have Positive and Negative analogues. The point is that we do not yet have a complete picture of the forces that are out there IMHO. If we do, there might be sources of power and propulsion that may be exploited for space travel, and even space-time continuum manipulation. I'd suggest to stay tuned, but our lifetimes may be limited relative to these discoveries. But it is exciting.

    No negative gravity; no magnetic charge. Lots of asymmetries out there to understand. Our great minds have made erroneous predictions and have endeavored to bring order to these difficult subjects. There will be many more theories (right and wrong), observations (correctly and incorrectly interpreted), and discoveries to come.

    Larry
    DevilHorse
    Last edited by DevilHorse; 09-23-2020 at 08:08 AM.

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