2020-21 Basketball Schedule

[DavidBenAkiva]

QUESTION - are different ACC teams playing a different amount of ACC conference games???!?!? I look at the schedules on ESPN and Duke has 12(I think) and Clemson has only 10 - something like that. Pitt also looks to have 10 ACC games... UNC looks to have 13 conference games.

*Are different teams in the league playing a different number of games? That would be crazy (not counting COVID alterations). Or have they not finalized the schedules?

I wouldn't trust the ESPN schedules. The ACC announced conference schedules and every team is playing 20 conference games. What might be happening is a reflection of the way the ACC announced the schedules. They had several matchups listed with multiple dates, like Duke vs. UNC on 3/5-6. It's not clear which date the game will take place right now. We just know that it will be one of those two days. My guess is that ESPN didn't enter matchups where the ACC provided two possible dates.

[uh_no]

Are the metric geeks/NCAA still planning to take into consideration "road games" this year? I guess we'll see if there's really a home court advantage without fans. I suppose it's possible some schools will allow some fans like we've seen in football though.

I think the nerds will be very interested to see how the lack of fans impacts home court advantage.

[SlapTheFloor]

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

[CameronBornAndBred]

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

I'll watch, but I think it's incredibly selfish, stupid, greedy, money grubbing at the risk of health to both players and staff, and could have long term affect to some elite athletes.
But I'll watch. At least 'til someone comes to their senses and/or is forced to shut it all down.

[Bluedog]

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

I'll watch, but I think it's incredibly selfish, stupid, greedy, money grubbing at the risk of health to both players and staff, and could have long term affect to some elite athletes.
But I'll watch. At least 'til someone comes to their senses and/or is forced to shut it all down.

To be fair, the players can choose to sit out and still get their scholarships and an extra year of eligibility. By and large, the VAST majority of players WANT to play. In fact, in my state, many families are upending their households to move states so their HIGH SCHOOLERS can play football or basketball in other states (given it's not allowed in my state -- that rule for some reason doesn't apply to colleges or pros for some reason). Not saying your point is invalid completely, but if you took a survey of Duke basketball players as an example, I would assume there'd be an overwhelming consensus of "want to play" particularly given they're isolating themselves anyway. They live for this and I think at least Duke is trying to create as safe an environment as possible although certainly there is a non-zero risk. Like what we saw in football there'd be protests if it got shut down...So, can't please everybody and these guys would rather play, have access to great facilities/coaches/training than be remote schooled at home and fend for themselves because they'd be training and playing pickup games regardless, I guarantee it. Some football players at certain schools have chosen to sit out the season. Basketball players have that option as well should they so choose.

[Troublemaker]

Are the metric geeks/NCAA still planning to take into consideration "road games" this year? I guess we'll see if there's really a home court advantage without fans. I suppose it's possible some schools will allow some fans like we've seen in football though.

I think the nerds will be very interested to see how the lack of fans impacts home court advantage.

Definitely. I've always hypothesized that, in basketball, most of the home advantage is in things like being able to shoot in familiar surroundings (since teams also practice on their homecourt) and not having to deal with the hassle of travel. So, I wouldn't expect a huge effect. Kenpom estimates average homecourt advantage to be 3.1 points typically, so I would expect the advantage this season to be no less than 2 points still, and I'll be very interested in seeing if I'm right.

We'll see, though. In the NFL, there's been a pretty huge difference. Homefield advantage in the NFL is also typically about 3 points, and this season the data nerds are estimating it to be about 1 to 1.5 points (so at least cut in half). I think that has to do with snap counts, though. In football, a loud crowd really does have a more direct effect on the game (as opposed to merely energizing/motivating the home players). A loud crowd can cause the opposing team's offense to be slower off the snap (and occasionally move them back five yards via false starts).

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

I'm fine with it. I suspect the vast majority of players and coaches want to play, and I believe they'll do it safely in their bubbles.

[CameronBornAndBred]

To be fair, the players can choose to sit out and still get their scholarships and an extra year of eligibility. By and large, the VAST majority of players WANT to play. In fact, in my state, many families are upending their households to move states so their HIGH SCHOOLERS can play football or basketball in other states (given it's not allowed in my state -- that rule for some reason doesn't apply to colleges or pros for some reason). Not saying your point is invalid completely, but if you took a survey of Duke basketball players as an example, I would assume there'd be an overwhelming consensus of "want to play" particularly given they're isolating themselves anyway. They live for this and I think at least Duke is trying to create as safe an environment as possible although certainly there is a non-zero risk. Like what we saw in football there'd be protests if it got shut down...So, can't please everybody and these guys would rather play, have access to great facilities/coaches/training than be remote schooled at home and fend for themselves because they'd be training and playing pickup games regardless, I guarantee it. Some football players at certain schools have chosen to sit out the season. Basketball players have that option as well should they so choose.

Of course they want to. I used to want to (and did) drive my Huffy down my steep driveway off an equally steep ramp at the bottom.
And, of course, I wasn't looking at a one year stint to make my name before I left for the Pro Huffy Jumping League.

[Bluedog]

Definitely. I've always hypothesized that, in basketball, most of the home advantage is in things like being able to shoot in familiar surroundings (since teams also practice on their homecourt) and not having to deal with the hassle of travel. So, I wouldn't expect a huge effect. Kenpom estimates average homecourt advantage to be 3.1 points typically, so I would expect the advantage this season to be no less than 2 points still, and I'll be very interested in seeing if I'm right.

We'll see, though. In the NFL, there's been a pretty huge difference. Homefield advantage in the NFL is also typically about 3 points, and this season the data nerds are estimating it to be about 1 to 1.5 points (so at least cut in half). I think that has to do with snap counts, though. In football, a loud crowd really does have a more direct effect on the game (as opposed to merely energizing/motivating the home players). A loud crowd can cause the opposing team's offense to be slower off the snap (and occasionally move them back five yards via false starts).



I'm fine with it. I suspect the vast majority of players and coaches want to play, and I believe they'll do it safely in their bubbles.

Are you saying homecourt vs. neutral? I don't think basketball and football homecourts advantages are the same. I thought basketball was double and there was about a 7-point swing from one arena to the other. In other words, two equally matched teams would be 3.5 pt favorite on their home court (7 point difference depending on who gets home-court).

This seems to show 3.7 points for Duke:
https://kenpom.com/blog/mining-point...urt-advantage/

I personally think homecourt is mostly impacted by fans and the refs who are unconciously influenced by the fans, as officiating can have a pretty huge impact in basketball, less so in football. The travel/familiar sightlines could be a factor, but don't think it's a big one... I guess we'll see.

[Bluedog]

Of course they want to. I used to want to (and did) drive my Huffy down my steep driveway off an equally steep ramp at the bottom.
And, of course, I wasn't looking at a one year stint to make my name before I left for the Pro Huffy Jumping League.

I hear ya. I guess my point is that if someone said you can't drive your Huffy down your steep driveway, you might find ANOTHER place to do it. So, just moving the risk to someplace else and possibly increasing it. And, yes, these guys will do that as well, finding another place to play basketball which may or may not be safer than the current situation. I'd argue probably less safe. These Duke guys in particular are really contained right now, but of course with case counts going up everywhere and as we get more interaction with other teams, the risks of exposure are increasing...and I expect many games will be postponed/canceled.

[rsvman]

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

I guess I don't fully understand your thinking here. Mine is like this: They didn't ask me for my opinion about whether they should play basketball. They are going to play the game whether I watch it or not. I want to watch some college basketball. Therefore, if they play the games, I will watch.

I know that on another level, if everybody said they wouldn't watch even if they played, they would not play the games, but that's living at a theoretical level and I'm living my actual life at a practical level when it comes to this.

[uh_no]

Definitely. I've always hypothesized that, in basketball, most of the home advantage is in things like being able to shoot in familiar surroundings (since teams also practice on their homecourt) and not having to deal with the hassle of travel. So, I wouldn't expect a huge effect. Kenpom estimates average homecourt advantage to be 3.1 points typically, so I would expect the advantage this season to be no less than 2 points still, and I'll be very interested in seeing if I'm right.

We'll see, though. In the NFL, there's been a pretty huge difference. Homefield advantage in the NFL is also typically about 3 points, and this season the data nerds are estimating it to be about 1 to 1.5 points (so at least cut in half). I think that has to do with snap counts, though. In football, a loud crowd really does have a more direct effect on the game (as opposed to merely energizing/motivating the home players). A loud crowd can cause the opposing team's offense to be slower off the snap (and occasionally move them back five yards via false starts).

Yeah there are tons of factors, the visuals, the feel of the ball/court, travel, fans, fans impact on refs. Generally would be very difficult to isolate any of them, but we'll have a golden opportunity this year.

[Troublemaker]

Are you saying homecourt vs. neutral? I don't think basketball and football homecourts advantages are the same. I thought basketball was double and there was about a 7-point swing from one arena to the other. In other words, two equally matched teams would be 3.5 pt favorite on their home court (7 point difference depending on who gets home-court).

This seems to show 3.7 points for Duke:
https://kenpom.com/blog/mining-point...urt-advantage/

Duke is above the median, though. I'm looking at kenpom's subscriber page for HCA here: https://kenpom.com/hca.php

Duke's HCA is 3.6 points, which ranks 71st in the country. The median team (i.e. ranked 177th) is UVA at 3.1 points.

FYI, Sagarin had home advantage as 3.2 points last season: http://sagarin.com/sports/cbsend.htm

I personally think homecourt is mostly impacted by fans and the refs who are unconciously influenced by the fans, as officiating can have a pretty huge impact in basketball, less so in football. The travel/familiar sightlines could be a factor, but don't think it's a big one... I guess we'll see.

Yeah, we obviously disagree about this. Will be fun to see who's right!

[Bluedog]

Yeah there are tons of factors, the visuals, the feel of the ball/court, travel, fans, fans impact on refs. Generally would be very difficult to isolate any of them, but we'll have a golden opportunity this year.

Except I bet several schools will allow students to be in the stadium like they have for football...Of the 15 ACC schools, 10 have allowed a limited number of fans in the stadium. 2 have allowed family members. And 3 have allowed none (Duke, BC, Syracuse). Hmm, what do those three have in common? And the only other ACC-member private (WF), has the smallest cap at 2,200 fans. (I recognize ND too is a private...). Interesting to see the huge public vs. private divide on that philosophy. Incidentally, the largest fanbases are allowed at FSU (25%, nearly 20,000) and Clemson (23% or 19,000). Ga Tech, Louisville, ND, Miami are close behind at 20%.

[sagegrouse]

How does everyone feel about the decision to play the upcoming basketball season? I'm on the fence about whether to watch: On one hand, I would dearly love to see some games. On the other hand, sending kids out to play a contact sport in the midst of a pandemic feels a bit exploitive. Or a bit more exploitive than normal. I'm not sure I want to be complicit in that decision.

I'll watch, but I think it's incredibly selfish, stupid, greedy, money grubbing at the risk of health to both players and staff, and could have long term affect to some elite athletes.
But I'll watch. At least 'til someone comes to their senses and/or is forced to shut it all down.

IMHO (where the H got jailed for a drug offense), there is no case NOT to play, certainly from Duke's perspective. Duke students are basically healthy with very few COVID cases -- 14 active cases among nearly 16,000 students. 94 in precautionary quarantine. Everyone connected with the team and the opponents have been tested. Other schools have much worse statistics, but the ACC has very strong testing and distancing guidelines.

Let me ask you -- who not play basketball? There is no evident health risk. Certainly no higher than the student body experiences -- or the players would experience as members of the student body and not playing intercollegiate athletics. This is the test it seems the ACC is applying.

I am looking forward to the season -- I have had hardly had any time to identify the new players on the team.

[Phredd3]

Except I bet several schools will allow students to be in the stadium like they have for football...Of the 15 ACC schools, 10 have allowed a limited number of fans in the stadium. 2 have allowed family members. And 3 have allowed none (Duke, BC, Syracuse). Hmm, what do those three have in common? And the only other ACC-member private (WF), has the smallest cap at 2,200 fans. (I recognize ND too is a private...). Interesting to see the huge public vs. private divide on that philosophy. Incidentally, the largest fanbases are allowed at FSU (25%, nearly 20,000) and Clemson (23% or 19,000). Ga Tech, Louisville, ND, Miami are close behind at 20%.

There's an enormous difference between allowing fans at an outdoor stadium and allowing them in a relatively small indoor arena. Even at 20% occupancy, that's multiple thousands of people in a single (admittedly, very large) room. I agree that I think some schools are going to do this if they are allowed to, though. I wonder if the NCAA has had discussions about that, or if the visiting team gets any say in the matter.

[-jk]

Of course they want to. I used to want to (and did) drive my Huffy down my steep driveway off an equally steep ramp at the bottom.
And, of course, I wasn't looking at a one year stint to make my name before I left for the Pro Huffy Jumping League.

Those days were great!

Now we call it mountain biking. No mask needed in the woods!

-jk

[MChambers]

Definitely. I've always hypothesized that, in basketball, most of the home advantage is in things like being able to shoot in familiar surroundings (since teams also practice on their homecourt) and not having to deal with the hassle of travel. So, I wouldn't expect a huge effect. Kenpom estimates average homecourt advantage to be 3.1 points typically, so I would expect the advantage this season to be no less than 2 points still, and I'll be very interested in seeing if I'm right.

What about officiating? I thought studies showed that the home team gets more close calls, and I assume the crowd reaction has something to do with that. With no crowd, maybe the officiating is more even.

[SlapTheFloor]

IMHO (where the H got jailed for a drug offense), there is no case NOT to play, certainly from Duke's perspective. Duke students are basically healthy with very few COVID cases -- 14 active cases among nearly 16,000 students. 94 in precautionary quarantine. Everyone connected with the team and the opponents have been tested. Other schools have much worse statistics, but the ACC has very strong testing and distancing guidelines.

Let me ask you -- who not play basketball? There is no evident health risk. Certainly no higher than the student body experiences -- or the players would experience as members of the student body and not playing intercollegiate athletics. This is the test it seems the ACC is applying.

I am looking forward to the season -- I have had hardly had any time to identify the new players on the team.

I will disagree with that part of the statement. Even if the numbers at Duke are low, there have been outbreaks at other schools. And at the point where you're playing those other schools, you can't be certain you won't catch coronavirus. And, while young people fare better than older ones, there is still a possibility of hospitalization, and the long-term health risks from infection aren't clearly known. I will concede what someone said earlier in the thread: the players do have a choice. They could sit out this year if they don't feel it's safe. Out of curiosity, outside of the players and coaches, have measures been taken to protect the rest of the athletics staff?

[Phredd3]

I will concede what someone said earlier in the thread: the players do have a choice. They could sit out this year if they don't feel it's safe.

The NBA values youth in draft picks. Is it really a realistic option for a top-tier player (i.e. a potential draftee or even G-leaguer) to sit out a year? It seems to me that this puts a currently unpaid player in the awkward position of either having to give up a substantial amount of expected earnings, or alternatively accepting the risk for, and earning millions on behalf of, the school he plays for. Technically, of course, it's a choice. But it is not an easy situation to foist onto someone barely of legal contracting age.

Not that this is entirely the fault of the schools. COVID is putting a lot of people in unpleasant situations. There are plenty of "essential workers" that realistically don't have good alternatives, either. But sitting out a year is a tough call for anyone who seriously expects their life's earnings to be made on the basketball court.

[Troublemaker]

The NBA values youth in draft picks. Is it really a realistic option for a top-tier player (i.e. a potential draftee or even G-leaguer) to sit out a year? It seems to me that this puts a currently unpaid player in the awkward position of either having to give up a substantial amount of expected earnings, or alternatively accepting the risk for, and earning millions on behalf of, the school he plays for. Technically, of course, it's a choice. But it is not an easy situation to foist onto someone barely of legal contracting age.

Not that this is entirely the fault of the schools. COVID is putting a lot of people in unpleasant situations. There are plenty of "essential workers" that realistically don't have good alternatives, either. But sitting out a year is a tough call for anyone who seriously expects their life's earnings to be made on the basketball court.

What am I missing here? Do players get younger if they play instead of sitting out? No matter what -- if you play or if you sit out -- you're eligible for the draft if you're one year removed from high school.