RIP Tom Seaver

[duke74]

Haven’t thought About Kiner’s Korner in years. Ralph Kiner and Lindsey Nelson were the voices with which I grew up.

Attachment 11406

And Bob Murphy on the left.

[tommy]

Like duke74, a lifelong Mets fan (even if I’m two years older than they are), it’s a sad, sad day. A big part of my childhood has left us.

The best major league pitcher since WWII, and in the inner circle of the Hall of Fame.

Seaver was a boyhood hero of mine, and clearly one of the very best pitchers in the post-WWII era. You could make a case that he was the best, but I don't think it's clear cut as you seem to. It would be an interesting debate. I think the group from which the best would have to be drawn would include Seaver, Maddux, Clemens (but: steroids), Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, and Bob Gibson.

I know he didn't have a career as long as those guys, or at least with as many dominant years as those guys, but for my money, if I have to win one game to save the planet, and I can choose any pitcher, in his prime, I'm picking Sandy Koufax.

[rasputin]

Seaver was a boyhood hero of mine, and clearly one of the very best pitchers in the post-WWII era. You could make a case that he was the best, but I don't think it's clear cut as you seem to. It would be an interesting debate. I think the group from which the best would have to be drawn would include Seaver, Maddux, Clemens (but: steroids), Spahn, Carlton, Randy Johnson, and Bob Gibson.

I know he didn't have a career as long as those guys, or at least with as many dominant years as those guys, but for my money, if I have to win one game to save the planet, and I can choose any pitcher, in his prime, I'm picking Sandy Koufax.

Pedro Martinez has to be in this discussion.

[tommy]

Pedro Martinez has to be in this discussion.

He was the one guy I thought about putting on the list, but didn't. He ranks 80th in all-time wins, and everyone else on the list (with the exception of Koufax) is in the top 22. Number 22 is The Unit, who had 84 more wins than did Pedro's 219. That's a pretty big gap.


oops* Gibson had 251 wins, good for 47th on the list.

[rasputin]

He was the one guy I thought about putting on the list, but didn't. He ranks 80th in all-time wins, and everyone else on the list (with the exception of Koufax) is in the top 22. Number 22 is The Unit, who had 84 more wins than did Pedro's 219. That's a pretty big gap.


oops* Gibson had 251 wins, good for 47th on the list.

Wins are not a good measure of the effectiveness of a pitcher. That stat is too dependent on his teammates. Check his ERA compared to the league, and then check the ERA of others on your list to their leagues.

[DU82]

Wins are not a good measure of the effectiveness of a pitcher. That stat is too dependent on his teammates. Check his ERA compared to the league, and then check the ERA of others on your list to their leagues.

Wins are certainly not a great measure now, and weren't the best back in the day, but they're still meaningful.

I believe of all the top pitchers, Seaver rose above his team's performance the most, in that the difference in his winning percentage and his team's was larger than anybody else. (I'd have to double-check Walter Johnson's, but still believe Seaver's was higher.)

Pedro is certainly in the top group for best peak along with Koufax; neither would rank as high on career stats.

Tommy's list of post-WWII pitchers is good, I don't think anybody who's up for consideration for best in this era is missing (leaving out current pitchers such as Kershaw, who might make an argument for inclusion in the list once his career's over.) Gibson probably has the worst record of that group, and if he's the worst, that's a very high standard!

Over at Baseball-Reference.com, the list of pitchers by WAR (Wins Above Replacement) for Pitchers has Seaver second in the post-WWII era to Clemens, whose "but" brings to question if his quality seasons late in his career tacking on WAR were due to steroids helping recovery. Seaver, in 20 years, is just above Maddux and Johnson, who had 23 and 22. (One measurement among others, for sure, but evidence in favor of Seaver.)

The biggest miss by the public was putting Nolan Ryan on the All-Century team in '99, and leaving Seaver off.

[rasputin]

Wins are certainly not a great measure now, and weren't the best back in the day, but they're still meaningful.

I believe of all the top pitchers, Seaver rose above his team's performance the most, in that the difference in his winning percentage and his team's was larger than anybody else. (I'd have to double-check Walter Johnson's, but still believe Seaver's was higher.)

Pedro is certainly in the top group for best peak along with Koufax; neither would rank as high on career stats.

Tommy's list of post-WWII pitchers is good, I don't think anybody who's up for consideration for best in this era is missing (leaving out current pitchers such as Kershaw, who might make an argument for inclusion in the list once his career's over.) Gibson probably has the worst record of that group, and if he's the worst, that's a very high standard!

Over at Baseball-Reference.com, the list of pitchers by WAR (Wins Above Replacement) for Pitchers has Seaver second in the post-WWII era to Clemens, whose "but" brings to question if his quality seasons late in his career tacking on WAR were due to steroids helping recovery. Seaver, in 20 years, is just above Maddux and Johnson, who had 23 and 22. (One measurement among others, for sure, but evidence in favor of Seaver.)

The biggest miss by the public was putting Nolan Ryan on the All-Century team in '99, and leaving Seaver off.

There were bigger misses by the public. Most of these were of all-time greats from before 1940, like Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove, and Honus Wagner. I get the recency bias, but a poll of "greats" that says yes to Ernie Banks and Cal Ripken and says no to Honus Wagner is a joke. And one that says yes to Nolan Ryan and no to Lefty Grove is absurd.

There were also some more recent players who were more worthy but left off, like Warren Spahn and Stan Musial. How can you put in Pete Rose and not Stan Musial?

All of the "misses" I'm criticizing the fan vote for above were corrected by a panel of people who actually knew something. But one miss that went un-corrected was the omission of Frank Robinson.

[DU82]

There were bigger misses by the public. Most of these were of all-time greats from before 1940, like Christy Mathewson, Lefty Grove, and Honus Wagner. I get the recency bias, but a poll of "greats" that says yes to Ernie Banks and Cal Ripken and says no to Honus Wagner is a joke. And one that says yes to Nolan Ryan and no to Lefty Grove is absurd.

There were also some more recent players who were more worthy but left off, like Warren Spahn and Stan Musial. How can you put in Pete Rose and not Stan Musial?

All of the "misses" I'm criticizing the fan vote for above were corrected by a panel of people who actually knew something. But one miss that went un-corrected was the omission of Frank Robinson.

I didn't include the ones that were corrected by the committee as errors. (Wagner was a bigger "miss", certainly. Missing the best shortstop (by far) was bad.)

On Frank Robinson, who do you leave out? He's the third best RF (or fourth, behind Mel Ott, if you go strictly by WAR. Musial is usually listed as LF.) The list was dominated by center fielders (and Rose was a "utility" player, and probably the best of the multi-position players, if you allow one slot for that.) Ken Griffey? (at that time, I doubt it.) Rickey Henderson, of recent players, was a bigger miss. (I'll give the fans a pass for skipping Tris Speaker.) There was a bigger controversy at the time because Roberto Clemente was left off the team.

(McGwire should have been left off as well, but that was definitely recency bias.)

The biggest miss was leaving out all the Negro League players.

[Tripping William]

The turn in this thread has made me miss Oly again. He'd be all over this discussion!

[Bob Green]

Tommy's list of post-WWII pitchers is good, I don't think anybody who's up for consideration for best in this era is missing (leaving out current pitchers such as Kershaw, who might make an argument for inclusion in the list once his career's over.) Gibson probably has the worst record of that group, and if he's the worst, that's a very high standard!

.

Whitey Ford?

[DU82]

The Mets’ players came out for their game against the Yankees with the perfect tribute to “The Franchise.” Each player had a smudge of dirt on their right knee.

[duke74]

The Mets’ players came out for their game against the Yankees with the perfect tribute to “The Franchise.” Each player had a smudge of dirt on their right knee.

And just won on a walk-off Alonso HR in the bottom of the tenth. With a number of comebacks. Against the Yanks

RIP 41

[Ggallagher]

I loved the quote I saw today that was Reggie Jackson's tribute to Tom Seaver.

"Blind people came to the ball park to listen to him pitch".

So sad. RIP Tom Terrific

[DevilHorse]

The last time I saw Tom Seaver in person was very memorable, but he didn't play at all.

It was 1973, and the Mets got into the playoffs. I asked my friend Harold (lived in Flushing) to get us a pair of tickets to a playoff game, which he did. We got mezzanine tickets down the left field line, and up quite a few rows. The game started well for the (Koosman pitched) Mets, with le grande ange, Rusty Staub hitting a couple of 2 run moonshot down the right-field line. They were memorable because unlike any home runs I've ever dealt with, I had to duck to see them. We were so far up under the top level at Shea Stadium that we couldn't see the top flight of Rusty's homers before they came down. No Jumbotron to help us.

Later in the game, Pete Rose, famously and typically, slid hard into Buddy Harrelson at second base and a brawl ensued. After the fight cleared, Rose had to go out into left play the field. At this point, too much beer, sun, and fun hit the guys at the top level, and they started throwing anything that wasn't nailed down at Rose. Reports said that batteries were thrown. I remember seeing the edge of the rowdy upper level. It was a bunch of guys with bandanas on their heads and few shirts. The Reds manager waved the players off the field. The announcer broadcast that the Mets were in danger of forfeiting an already (essentially) won game. Then, a scene that I've never seen repeated in baseball annals occurred.

A contingent of 4 Mets players walked from the dugout out toward left field. The Mets included Rusty Staub, Met Manager Yogi Berra, Willie Mays (traded to the Mets earlier in the season so he could finish his career in NY where it started for the NY Giants before they moved to SF), and Tom Seaver. They stopped about a third from the outfield wall to the infield and started to wave their hands and mouth to stop. This went on for a little while, as the guys in the upper deck hoisted their arms in the air and cheered as if some perceived victory had been won. The fab four (perhaps not the Beatles who stood on that same spot 9 year before) returned to the dugout. The game continued without incident. The Mets won the series, but lost to Oakland in the World Series.

In hindsight, what an awesome contingent of 4 players.

I still have that ticket stub.

Larry
DevilHorse

[duke74]

The last time I saw Tom Seaver in person was very memorable, but he didn't play at all.

It was 1973, and the Mets got into the playoffs. I asked my friend Harold (lived in Flushing) to get us a pair of tickets to a playoff game, which he did. We got mezzanine tickets down the left field line, and up quite a few rows. The game started well for the (Koosman pitched) Mets, with le grande ange, Rusty Staub hitting a couple of 2 run moonshot down the right-field line. They were memorable because unlike any home runs I've ever dealt with, I had to duck to see them. We were so far up under the top level at Shea Stadium that we couldn't see the top flight of Rusty's homers before they came down. No Jumbotron to help us.

Later in the game, Pete Rose, famously and typically, slid hard into Buddy Harrelson at second base and a brawl ensued. After the fight cleared, Rose had to go out into left play the field. At this point, too much beer, sun, and fun hit the guys at the top level, and they started throwing anything that wasn't nailed down at Rose. Reports said that batteries were thrown. I remember seeing the edge of the rowdy upper level. It was a bunch of guys with bandanas on their heads and few shirts. The Reds manager waved the players off the field. The announcer broadcast that the Mets were in danger of forfeiting an already (essentially) won game. Then, a scene that I've never seen repeated in baseball annals occurred.

A contingent of 4 Mets players walked from the dugout out toward left field. The Mets included Rusty Staub, Met Manager Yogi Berra, Willie Mays (traded to the Mets earlier in the season so he could finish his career in NY where it started for the NY Giants before they moved to SF), and Tom Seaver. They stopped about a third from the outfield wall to the infield and started to wave their hands and mouth to stop. This went on for a little while, as the guys in the upper deck hoisted their arms in the air and cheered as if some perceived victory had been won. The fab four (perhaps not the Beatles who stood on that same spot 9 year before) returned to the dugout. The game continued without incident. The Mets won the series, but lost to Oakland in the World Series.

In hindsight, what an awesome contingent of 4 players.

I still have that ticket stub.

Larry
DevilHorse

Great story. Remember that game well. Was my senior year at Duke.

Hated losing to the As. Darn Felix Millan. Cost us game one.

[Rich]

Great story. Remember that game well. Was my senior year at Duke.

Hated losing to the As. Darn Felix Millan. Cost us game one.

Felix Millan, now that's a name from the past. I remember playing whiffle ball and being the Mets. Whenever Felix Millan was up I had to choke up half the bat! For anyone not familiar I am NOT exaggerating!

millan_display_image_crop_north.jpg

[luvdahops]

The last time I saw Tom Seaver in person was very memorable, but he didn't play at all.

It was 1973, and the Mets got into the playoffs. I asked my friend Harold (lived in Flushing) to get us a pair of tickets to a playoff game, which he did. We got mezzanine tickets down the left field line, and up quite a few rows. The game started well for the (Koosman pitched) Mets, with le grande ange, Rusty Staub hitting a couple of 2 run moonshot down the right-field line. They were memorable because unlike any home runs I've ever dealt with, I had to duck to see them. We were so far up under the top level at Shea Stadium that we couldn't see the top flight of Rusty's homers before they came down. No Jumbotron to help us.

Later in the game, Pete Rose, famously and typically, slid hard into Buddy Harrelson at second base and a brawl ensued. After the fight cleared, Rose had to go out into left play the field. At this point, too much beer, sun, and fun hit the guys at the top level, and they started throwing anything that wasn't nailed down at Rose. Reports said that batteries were thrown. I remember seeing the edge of the rowdy upper level. It was a bunch of guys with bandanas on their heads and few shirts. The Reds manager waved the players off the field. The announcer broadcast that the Mets were in danger of forfeiting an already (essentially) won game. Then, a scene that I've never seen repeated in baseball annals occurred.

A contingent of 4 Mets players walked from the dugout out toward left field. The Mets included Rusty Staub, Met Manager Yogi Berra, Willie Mays (traded to the Mets earlier in the season so he could finish his career in NY where it started for the NY Giants before they moved to SF), and Tom Seaver. They stopped about a third from the outfield wall to the infield and started to wave their hands and mouth to stop. This went on for a little while, as the guys in the upper deck hoisted their arms in the air and cheered as if some perceived victory had been won. The fab four (perhaps not the Beatles who stood on that same spot 9 year before) returned to the dugout. The game continued without incident. The Mets won the series, but lost to Oakland in the World Series.

In hindsight, what an awesome contingent of 4 players.

I still have that ticket stub.

Larry
DevilHorse

Grew up a Reds fan, and recall the Rose v Harrelson brawl as among the most lopsided in baseball history. Pete had a way of getting under the skin of opposing teams and fans generally, and was a perfect villain for that scrappy, underdog Mets squad and its boisterous fans at Shea. Incredibly classy gesture by those 4 guys, using their stature in the best possible way.

[DU82]

The last time I saw Tom Seaver in person was very memorable, but he didn't play at all.

It was 1973, and the Mets got into the playoffs. I asked my friend Harold (lived in Flushing) to get us a pair of tickets to a playoff game, which he did. We got mezzanine tickets down the left field line, and up quite a few rows. The game started well for the (Koosman pitched) Mets, with le grande ange, Rusty Staub hitting a couple of 2 run moonshot down the right-field line. They were memorable because unlike any home runs I've ever dealt with, I had to duck to see them. We were so far up under the top level at Shea Stadium that we couldn't see the top flight of Rusty's homers before they came down. No Jumbotron to help us.

Later in the game, Pete Rose, famously and typically, slid hard into Buddy Harrelson at second base and a brawl ensued. After the fight cleared, Rose had to go out into left play the field. At this point, too much beer, sun, and fun hit the guys at the top level, and they started throwing anything that wasn't nailed down at Rose. Reports said that batteries were thrown. I remember seeing the edge of the rowdy upper level. It was a bunch of guys with bandanas on their heads and few shirts. The Reds manager waved the players off the field. The announcer broadcast that the Mets were in danger of forfeiting an already (essentially) won game. Then, a scene that I've never seen repeated in baseball annals occurred.

A contingent of 4 Mets players walked from the dugout out toward left field. The Mets included Rusty Staub, Met Manager Yogi Berra, Willie Mays (traded to the Mets earlier in the season so he could finish his career in NY where it started for the NY Giants before they moved to SF), and Tom Seaver. They stopped about a third from the outfield wall to the infield and started to wave their hands and mouth to stop. This went on for a little while, as the guys in the upper deck hoisted their arms in the air and cheered as if some perceived victory had been won. The fab four (perhaps not the Beatles who stood on that same spot 9 year before) returned to the dugout. The game continued without incident. The Mets won the series, but lost to Oakland in the World Series.

In hindsight, what an awesome contingent of 4 players.

I still have that ticket stub.

Larry
DevilHorse

Nice recall! Didn't like Pete Rose from that day on!

Two days later, the fifth and final game of the series, we were walking home from school listening to the game on the transistor radio (kids, have your grandparents explain that!) During the play-by-play, the Mets' announcer (likely Bob Murphy) described a play, and then in the same voice and tone said "and from Washington, Vice President Spiro Agnew has resigned." Amazing how/where we got our information back then. (For New Yorkers (and the suburbs), similar to how Howard Cosell told the country that John Lennon had been shot.)

[Neals384]

Seaver had lewy body dementia; which by itself is very difficult for patient and those close to him, plus COVID-19. Yikes. Add me to the list of former Mets fans who will miss him.

[OldPhiKap]

Other than Tom Terrific, my two favorite Mets were Sidd Finch and Chico Escuela.

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C6FCA435-F9F2-4C53-91EE-5A66E74FDFE2.jpg