Duke Fall Housing Announcement

[sagegrouse]

Freshmen and sophomores on campus in the fall, juniors and seniors in the spring.

From the Chronicle:

Duke to limit Fall housing to first-years and sophomores, according to Provost email

In a Sunday email to faculty, Provost Sally Kornbluth outlined a new Fall plan that limits on-campus undergraduate housing to first-years, sophomores and students who have “personal or academic circumstances that require campus housing and who have been approved for residence by Student Affairs.”

Juniors and seniors will have priority for Spring semester housing if public health conditions remain the same, Kornbluth wrote in the email, a copy of which was obtained by The Chronicle. First-years and sophomores will also be on campus in the Spring if conditions improve.

Juniors and seniors living off campus in Durham will be able to use “certain Duke facilities (like libraries and laboratories), but only for approved academic purposes (e.g., senior theses),” Kornbluth wrote. “Students living off-campus will not be able to access residence halls, dining areas or social spaces.”

There will be a Duke email soon, which I will pass along.

[freshmanjs]

As the parent of an incoming freshman, I’m really sad about this news. 3 months on campus and then 9 months at home is not going to be a great way to start.

[cspan37421]

I've been curious for some time what effect Covid-19 and social distancing needs have had on yield/matriculation rates, especially for expensive private schools. It seems to me that the value proposition is sharply impaired if you aren't going to interact much with other top-shelf student talent, great professors, enjoy high levels of cultural exposure, arts, extracurriculars, and so forth. The pressure to hold in-person classes must be immense. Why pay $$$$$ for a pricey school far away if you're going to be watching video lectures and interacting just online?

Maybe some kids & parents would agree to it, in the hope that things change within a year or so. But ... it's uncertain, it's a gamble.

Anyway just wondering if anyone has seen news or analyses of this w/r/t Duke or other schools.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I've been curious for some time what effect Covid-19 and social distancing needs have had on yield/matriculation rates, especially for expensive private schools. It seems to me that the value proposition is sharply impaired if you aren't going to interact much with other top-shelf student talent, great professors, enjoy high levels of cultural exposure, arts, extracurriculars, and so forth. The pressure to hold in-person classes must be immense. Why pay $$$$$ for a pricey school far away if you're going to be watching video lectures and interacting just online?

Maybe some kids & parents would agree to it, in the hope that things change within a year or so. But ... it's uncertain, it's a gamble.

Anyway just wondering if anyone has seen news or analyses of this w/r/t Duke or other schools.

I was recently on a Chronicle alumni event with the current editors. This question was asked, both in terms of returning students and entering freshman. Questions were also asked about how Duke was going to manage classes like science labs, performance, etc. They did not know (and frankly didn’t really seem to even have these questions on their radars, which was disappointing).

I too would really like to know the stats on kids taking gap years, when they must make their final decisions, the financial impact, and if there is a process for re-entry.

[tommy]

I too would really like to know the stats on kids taking gap years, when they must make their final decisions, the financial impact, and if there is a process for re-entry.

I was recently told by a parent of a would-be Duke freshman who has decided to take a gap year that he was told by Admissions that, of the approx 1600 incoming frosh, about 500 are taking the gap year. So 30%. And that's before today's announcement.

[uh_no]

I was recently told by a parent of a would-be Duke freshman who has decided to take a gap year that he was told by Admissions that, of the approx 1600 incoming frosh, about 500 are taking the gap year. So 30%. And that's before today's announcement.

that's nuts. I imagine they might be allowing more students off the wait list to try to fill the gap in revenue to some degree. I wouldn't want to be the person trying to juggle those numbers.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I was recently told by a parent of a would-be Duke freshman who has decided to take a gap year that he was told by Admissions that, of the approx 1600 incoming frosh, about 500 are taking the gap year. So 30%. And that's before today's announcement.

Thanks for sharing. And I assume all of those students are guaranteed a spot next year? I would hate to be a rising senior applying to Duke - it is already hard enough to get in, and now a lot of seats are pre-filled. I assume some kids will get pulled off the wait list this year but there is going to be a huge hole in tuition revenue for the upcoming school year. The Board of Trustees will finally have to spend down some of the gigantic endowment. This will likely be a huge challenge for schools that don't have the financial flexibility that Duke has.

I was recently speaking to someone I met about au peres. They are looking for one but it is hard to find one given constantly changing laws about visas. I suggested that since there are numerous college students now taking a year off and looking for something to do, they should try to find an American au pere. I don't know much about the process but it seemed like a logical idea? Obviously you want someone who truly wants to be there and has an interest in kids but I'm sure there are plenty of them out there.

[uh_no]

I was recently told by a parent of a would-be Duke freshman who has decided to take a gap year that he was told by Admissions that, of the approx 1600 incoming frosh, about 500 are taking the gap year. So 30%. And that's before today's announcement.

FWIW, I reached out to a family member who is a director at a relatively similar boston school, who reported their number was "3-5%," so it seems a bit absurd there is such a spread in the market for e to take this 100% at face value. None of my connections at Duke have much details, and I don't have the connections in admissions I once did, unfortuantely.

Is it possible it is 500 out of the full population of 7000? (which would put it at 7%, a bit more in line with what seems to be reported elsewhere?)


In either case, absent any other evidence, this is a bit hear-hear-hear say, and I wouldn't put 100% stock in that number, even if I 100% believe tommy that he WAS recently told it by such a person.

[tommy]

FWIW, I reached out to a family member who is a director at a relatively similar boston school, who reported their number was "3-5%," so it seems a bit absurd there is such a spread in the market for e to take this 100% at face value. None of my connections at Duke have much details, and I don't have the connections in admissions I once did, unfortuantely.

Is it possible it is 500 out of the full population of 7000? (which would put it at 7%, a bit more in line with what seems to be reported elsewhere?)


In either case, absent any other evidence, this is a bit hear-hear-hear say, and I wouldn't put 100% stock in that number, even if I 100% believe tommy that he WAS recently told it by such a person.

So sorry but I recontacted the person who told me this, and turns out he had not spoken with someone at Admissions about this, but rather to someone else who had spoken to someone who worked with or is somehow otherwise "associated with" Admissions, and it was an estimate based on other data. So it may well me significantly less than 30%. It was out of the entering freshman class of 1600 though, not out of the entire student body. Nevertheless, apologies - I should not have posted that 500 number without further verification.

[budwom]

Duke is fortunate that demand is so high that people will still line up (from the waiting list) to grab a spot vacated by someone taking a gap year, even if the first year experience is largely in mom and dad's basement.

Some schools are telling kids they can't automatically take a gap year and enter in the Fall of 2021...

[Im4howdy]

Duke is fortunate that demand is so high that people will still line up (from the waiting list) to grab a spot vacated by someone taking a gap year, even if the first year experience is largely in mom and dad's basement.

Some schools are telling kids they can't automatically take a gap year and enter in the Fall of 2021...

Except that it's almost August and I imagine 99.99% of kids on the waiting list have already put deposits down at other schools.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Except that it's almost August and I imagine 99.99% of kids on the waiting list have already put deposits down at other schools.

Yup. I don't know if the schools are still pulling off the wait lists or not - though I totally agree with you, if your dream school was Duke (or some other school) and you have plenty of money and got the call at the last second, you might still make the move.

A friend's kid was accepted as a junior transfer at an Ivy in late May. He is a very bright kid with great grades at his prior school so might have gotten in anyway. But I'm sure that by then the school saw that they were going to have a lot of upper class seats to fill due to unexpected gap years so his odds of getting in increased (the school is need blind but he also didn't need aid, which didn't hurt).

[DukeDevilDeb]

What in the world makes you think that things will be different a year from now? As a faculty member, the quick shift from in person to online classes last spring was the most difficult thing I've ever had to do. My teaching is dependent on establishing rapport with the students both in the large group and individual. I can tell you after teaching last spring and this summer in 2 dimensions, such rapport is impossible over the internet.

The United States should have shut down when this first was seen as a pandemic. We didn't. Duke did... got lots of criticism (e.g., first to say they weren't playing in the ACC Tournament) but ultimately did exactly the right thing. We really wanted to bring all the kids back this fall, but the risk to them (and to the faculty) is just too great.

Don't want to be a pessimist, but I don't think we will have either a football or basketball season. Duke announced the following today: (in response to a question on how student life would be different in fall 2020)

The usual in-person events, meetings and programs will either not take place or will be significantly different in size and format... as of now, intramural and club sports will not be occurring in the fall except for e-sport events...

Please note that in-person public events ... will not be permitted on the Duke campus until further notice. Additionally , in-person events hosted, sponsored or paid for by Duke will not be permitted to take place off campus, either in Durham or elsewhere.

The ACC is expected to determine the status of fall competition soon.

today.duke.edu

[DukieInKansas]

Another option for a gap year - Junior College classes, probably online, in areas totally outside their perceived major. They may find that they really want to try a trade instead of college. You can make a great living as a plumber or in HVAC. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to college but not everyone should go.

Or do online courses at a more local college with lower tuition - depending on what classes would transfer to their preferred university. I know not all schools will accept everything but it would be a cheaper option. A local small private school is actually running adds for this option. I think they hope that students will like the experience enough to stay to finish their degree.

[uh_no]

Another option for a gap year - Junior College classes, probably online, in areas totally outside their perceived major. They may find that they really want to try a trade instead of college. You can make a great living as a plumber or in HVAC. Everyone should have the opportunity to go to college but not everyone should go.

Or do online courses at a more local college with lower tuition - depending on what classes would transfer to their preferred university. I know not all schools will accept everything but it would be a cheaper option. A local small private school is actually running adds for this option. I think they hope that students will like the experience enough to stay to finish their degree.

fwiw, it would be extremely difficult for such credits to transfer in to duke. You might be able to convince the DUS of the department to allow you to place out of a class, but almost surely not to fulfill a credit requirement.

[JayZee]

So sorry but I recontacted the person who told me this, and turns out he had not spoken with someone at Admissions about this, but rather to someone else who had spoken to someone who worked with or is somehow otherwise "associated with" Admissions, and it was an estimate based on other data. So it may well me significantly less than 30%. It was out of the entering freshman class of 1600 though, not out of the entire student body. Nevertheless, apologies - I should not have posted that 500 number without further verification.

What % of Duke's student body are international students, cause they are not allowed into the states, right?

I have a rising senior and she is pretty much already planning to take a gap year - next year.

Still, I think Duke will be fine - brand, endowment, demand. Many schools though will struggle immensely, and quite a few will almost immediately be on the brink of closing this year, between gap years and the lack of full boat paying international students. And I bet that the US families that are paying full boat have a higher probability of taking a gap year. Who wants to spend 75K for an online experience?

Personally, I think we will be looking back 2-3 years from now and higher education will look materially different. It was already under massive stress with the inflation and the crushing student debt. Covid will almost surely be a catalyst for major change.

[uh_no]

What % of Duke's student body are international students, cause they are not allowed into the states, right?

I have a rising senior and she is pretty much already planning to take a gap year - next year.

Still, I think Duke will be fine - brand, endowment, demand. Many schools though will struggle immensely, and quite a few will almost immediately be on the brink of closing this year, between gap years and the lack of full boat paying international students. And I bet that the US families that are paying full boat have a higher probability of taking a gap year. Who wants to spend 75K for an online experience?

Personally, I think we will be looking back 2-3 years from now and higher education will look materially different. It was already under massive stress with the inflation and the crushing student debt. Covid will almost surely be a catalyst for major change.

The bigger issue for duke will be handling the bubble of students coming back from a gap year.

[sagegrouse]

The bigger issue for duke will be handling the bubble of students coming back from a gap year.

There is history in universities doing this, although memories are likely faded since the surge of students following the end of WW II. About five years ago I spoke with a student in the Class of 1950 at Harvard. He was a local student -- miraculously admitted, but a different story. There was really no room on campus for anyone, even areas for the "townies" to congregate. So Harvard rented a townhouse as a sort of social hall. I can't remember if it provided meals or not, but it was a regular gathering place.

Duke would need to pin down off-campus housing for students as well as meet the needs of such students when actually on campus.

But back to the prior story. What was memorable to me was that, my friend said, there were ongoing bull sessions in the townhouse. By far the two most active participants were Henry Kissinger and future Secy. of Defense James Schlesinger, both Class of 1950.

[uh_no]

There is history in universities doing this, although memories are likely faded since the surge of students following the end of WW II. About five years ago I spoke with a student in the Class of 1950 at Harvard. He was a local student -- miraculously admitted, but a different story. There was really no room on campus for anyone, even areas for the "townies" to congregate. So Harvard rented a townhouse as a sort of social hall. I can't remember if it provided meals or not, but it was a regular gathering place.

Duke would need to pin down off-campus housing for students as well as meet the needs of such students when actually on campus.

But back to the prior story. What was memorable to me was that, my friend said, there were ongoing bull sessions in the townhouse. By far the two most active participants were Henry Kissinger and future Secy. of Defense James Schlesinger, both Class of 1950.

Well, they bought another hotel last week, and I think some of the new apartments that bought out Sam's.

The class sizes are more of a bigger issue. The labs that people are undoubtedly putting off since they can't actually do them will now have huge influx when they are offered. CS classes are already at ridiculous sizes. They can always say "too bad no housing for you."

[duke79]

There is history in universities doing this, although memories are likely faded since the surge of students following the end of WW II. About five years ago I spoke with a student in the Class of 1950 at Harvard. He was a local student -- miraculously admitted, but a different story. There was really no room on campus for anyone, even areas for the "townies" to congregate. So Harvard rented a townhouse as a sort of social hall. I can't remember if it provided meals or not, but it was a regular gathering place.

Duke would need to pin down off-campus housing for students as well as meet the needs of such students when actually on campus.

But back to the prior story. What was memorable to me was that, my friend said, there were ongoing bull sessions in the townhouse. By far the two most active participants were Henry Kissinger and future Secy. of Defense James Schlesinger, both Class of 1950.

This scenario happened to my father. He was originally in the class of 1944 at Duke but got called into the navy at the end of 1943 (when the war on both fronts was going full blast and the military services needed all the bodies that they could get). I think he had already finished the first semester of his senior year but then had to go off to fight in the Pacific (after an accelerated OCS at Northwestern in Chicago). My mother stayed at Duke to graduate in the Spring of 1944 and then they got married (in June of 1944). Then, when the war ended, my father had to come back to Duke to finish his last semester (and he told me he was quite angry with Duke because many colleges automatically granted diplomas to those individuals who served in the military and who had only one semester or so to complete but Duke wouldn't do that at the time). Needless to say, there was a huge influx of returning service people and new students, so there was little available living space on campus or in Durham and classes were overly crowded. My mother and father (and my older brother) had to live out at Camp Buttner (now a federal prison, I believe).