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  1. #21
    In my eyes, LeBron James is the best all round basketball player I have ever seen. His physicality, his finesse, his ball handling, his passing, his dunks, his dribbling, his court vision... all amazing.

    Jordan was more impressive, more magnificent, more aerial, more vocal.

    But LeBron is the better basketball player in my book.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    Wilt clearly wins the individual statistics comparison. But Russell won the games.
    Right. Itís like Dan Marino or Fran Tarkenton vs Bradshaw or Stauback. Iíll take the champs myself but I see the argument for stats.

  3. #23
    I do take issue with the quote they used for Kareem at #3..."His unstoppable skyhook allowed him to score more points than anyone in league history, and while he wasn't flashy, there has arguably never been anyone better.". Clearly they think there have been two better or he wouldn't be at #3. Just saying.

    I still hate MJ and he doesn't deserve to be at #1 over players like Kareem and Russel. I love that Duncan gets his due. I never realized he has won the most regular season games with the same team.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    What was self-illuminating was as I was reading the list, LeBron at #2 seems strangely out of place. It jumped out that he "only" has 3 championships, while everyone else on the list had more (except Wilt with 2 and Bird with 3). It made me wonder why so many (including me) put LeBron at #2. Is it recency bias? Is it the eye test? Why wouldn't someone like Kareem, who was also dominant in his time and has twice as many championships, be rated higher?
    For me it's a bit easier because I barely count rings as part of a GOAT discussion. Rings matter for coaching and GMs because it's a team game. Jordan is the greatest scorer of all time to me, LeBron is the best basketball player.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    ESPN's list:

    1. MJ
    2. Bron
    3. Kareem
    4. Bill
    5. Magic
    6. Wilt
    7. Larry
    8. Tim
    9. Kobe
    10. Shaq


    It's pretty hard to argue with the names on this list. I was no Shaq fan but anyone that thinks he wouldn't be dominant in any era of NBA basketball is batsh*t crazy. Leaving Kobe out of the top ten, ridiculous. I don't care about the MJ vs Bron argument, they both dominated their times. I agree with the poster that said Kobe was basically MJ (without the UNCheat baggage). Bill is too high IMHO, he was a great team guy but on this list I'd have him at 9 or 10. Kobe is too low, Larry is too high. Tim is probably 10. I would have MJ, Bron, Kareem and Wilt as my top 4 in some order. Followed by Magic, Larry, Kobe, Shaq in some order.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    ESPN's list:

    1. MJ
    2. Bron
    3. Kareem
    4. Bill
    5. Magic
    6. Wilt
    7. Larry
    8. Tim
    9. Kobe
    10. Shaq


    It's pretty hard to argue with the names on this list. I was no Shaq fan but anyone that thinks he wouldn't be dominant in any era of NBA basketball is batsh*t crazy. Leaving Kobe out of the top ten, ridiculous. I don't care about the MJ vs Bron argument, they both dominated their times. I agree with the poster that said Kobe was basically MJ (without the UNCheat baggage). Bill is too high IMHO, he was a great team guy but on this list I'd have him at 9 or 10. Kobe is too low, Larry is too high. Tim is probably 10. I would have MJ, Bron, Kareem and Wilt as my top 4 in some order. Followed by Magic, Larry, Kobe, Shaq in some order.
    Are you saying that you would Kobe Bryant over Larry Bird?
    "We are not provided with wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can take for us, an effort which no one can spare us, for our wisdom is the point of view from which we come at last to regard the world." --M. Proust

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    In my eyes, LeBron James is the best all round basketball player I have ever seen. His physicality, his finesse, his ball handling, his passing, his dunks, his dribbling, his court vision... all amazing.

    Jordan was more impressive, more magnificent, more aerial, more vocal.

    But LeBron is the better basketball player in my book.
    He has a more complete skill set. He's the most complete player I've ever seen.

    But Jordan remains the best IMO. He was able to impact game momentum on both ends of the floor unlike anyone I've ever seen, especially when the stakes were the highest. The single biggest reason Jordan enjoys that mythic status is because he produced... period. In that respect, it stsrtd and ends with what he did on the court.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New York City
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    From what I've read (and discussed), Wilt is usually consensus top 5. Then again, the consensus top 10 active NBA players usually includes ~25 players.

    For me, the 5 players who need to be in the top 5 are Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. I'd probably put Bird and Magic in the top 10. Then I'd have to go Timmy D, the greatest PF in the game. That leaves 2 players to round out the top 10.

    So many options, but I'd probably add Karl Malone (personal bias, and he's the 2nd highest scorer of all time) and Shaq.

    The biggest issue I have with the top 10 is the inclusion of Kobe and the order.
    I agree with a lot of your thinking. But for the last two in the top 10, I'd include the Big O and Hakeem (over Malone and David Robinson) - I think the Dream is underrated especially because defense doesn't get as much due.

    I was also thinking if I had to pick one starting five to win a 7 game series, factoring in complementary skills, shooting, defense passing, etc. who would be on it. And came up with:

    Magic
    Jordan
    Bird (tough call over LeBron)
    Duncan
    Kareem
    Singler is IRON

    I STILL GOT IT! -- Ryan Kelly, March 2, 2013

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. synellinden View Post
    I agree with a lot of your thinking. But for the last two in the top 10, I'd include the Big O and Hakeem (over Malone and David Robinson) - I think the Dream is underrated especially because defense doesn't get as much due.

    I was also thinking if I had to pick one starting five to win a 7 game series, factoring in complementary skills, shooting, defense passing, etc. who would be on it. And came up with:

    Magic
    Jordan
    Bird (tough call over LeBron)
    Duncan
    Kareem
    If I got to pick a starting 5:

    Magic
    Jordan
    Durant
    LeBron
    Bird

    Or

    LeBron
    Jordan
    Durant
    Bird
    Kareem
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Albemarle, North Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by bullettoothtony View Post
    He has a more complete skill set. He's the most complete player I've ever seen.

    But Jordan remains the best IMO. He was able to impact game momentum on both ends of the floor unlike anyone I've ever seen, especially when the stakes were the highest. The single biggest reason Jordan enjoys that mythic status is because he produced... period. In that respect, it stsrtd and ends with what he did on the court.
    My guess too is that the way media has evolved and how we crave the 24/7 news cycle has altered how we see LeBron in a way Jordan didn't have to deal with on that scale (Hello internet boom).

    It's like music. A good song is on the radio, you like it but it gets played so much you tire of it and then begin disliking it. Yeah Jordan had insane media attention for the time but it isn't like today. I get the feeling Jordan wouldn't be so popular in today's culture with his misdeeds being plastered as breaking news at all hours every few days.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  11. #31
    Think Kyrie either deserves to be on this list or could get on it in the future? I mean, he has to be considered for the top ball-handling skills in history. Plus, he has the championship and was clearly the most pivotal player from game 5 onwards. Overall stats certainly qualify for discussion. I assume it is his perceived attitude and chemistry issues that keep him off the list... But is that enough to off-set what is clearly a tremendous career and talent?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dukefan5656 View Post
    Think Kyrie either deserves to be on this list or could get on it in the future? I mean, he has to be considered for the top ball-handling skills in history. Plus, he has the championship and was clearly the most pivotal player from game 5 onwards. Overall stats certainly qualify for discussion. I assume it is his perceived attitude and chemistry issues that keep him off the list... But is that enough to off-set what is clearly a tremendous career and talent?
    Top ten ever? No.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Top ten ever? No.
    Sorry, I meant the overall list of top 75

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    OK, I'll give you Russell, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, L. James and Jordan. After that, I would play well, why not...?

    O. Robertson
    Barkley
    Malone
    D. Robinson
    J. Erving (as in Dr.)
    M. Malone (uh, Moses -- 3x MVP)

    I like the Lakers and used to live in LA, but Shaq and Kobe plus Magic and Kareem (and Wilt)? Too much Hollywood for me.
    I like your thinking, but Bird belongs in 6th.

    And I LOVE my Dr J - was happy kid all through 1983 (I think that was the year.)

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    I'm a bit surprised Grant Hill doesn't sneak into the top 74. Even with the chronic injuries, he had a really solid career. I suppose the lack of postseason success hurts him a lot, but there more than a few guys who never really won anything on the list, such as Vince Carter, T-Mac, etc. To be fair, he would be lower than those two guys, but from a talent standpoint, I think Grant absolutely should be in the top 74

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    These lists and the attention we pay to them, are a little frustrating for me. Everybody mentioned is a good player but there is now way to objectively rank the greatest players when we can't even agree on the criteria.

    I guess we don't have much else to do now but this exercise seems a bit futile

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    These lists and the attention we pay to them, are a little frustrating for me. Everybody mentioned is a good player but there is now way to objectively rank the greatest players when we can't even agree on the criteria.

    I guess we don't have much else to do now but this exercise seems a bit futile
    It is totally futile.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    These lists and the attention we pay to them, are a little frustrating for me. Everybody mentioned is a good player but there is now way to objectively rank the greatest players when we can't even agree on the criteria.

    I guess we don't have much else to do now but this exercise seems a bit futile
    So true. Just take the MJ discussion. The lynchpin in the pro-MJ argument is that he Just. Refused. To lose.

    Of course, any several things could have altered his career arc. What if that team had existed with todayís CBA? What if Pippen tore an Achilles? Could they still have won six rings? Who knows.
    Carolina delenda est

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hudson Valley
    Quote Originally Posted by JNort View Post
    If I got to pick a starting 5:

    Magic
    Jordan
    Durant
    LeBron
    Bird

    Or

    LeBron
    Jordan
    Durant
    Bird
    Kareem
    I don't want to pick on you in particular (sorry - but your list was convenient). However. this is typical of what people have proposed. It shows a definite bias toward recent players that is also there in threads looking at Duke players or games.

    How about considering
    Russell
    Jerry West
    Elgin Baylor
    Wilt
    Cousey

    Those all deserve top 10 consideration - and actually more than just consideration.

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Tappan Zee Devil View Post
    I don't want to pick on you in particular (sorry - but your list was convenient). However. this is typical of what people have proposed. It shows a definite bias toward recent players that is also there in threads looking at Duke players or games.

    How about considering
    Russell
    Jerry West
    Elgin Baylor
    Wilt
    Cousey

    Those all deserve top 10 consideration - and actually more than just consideration.

    I'd argue that if the argument is "best" player, then there should be recency bias. If the argument is "greatest" player, then there should not be recency bias.

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