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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    This is already the system we have, but the currency is different. Labor is free so we compete with facilities, coaches, television, exposure, schedules, shoes, gear, adulation, and expectations about the future. That's why Duke's basketbal budget is roughly 100 times that of some D3 schools, for example. That sounds pretty professional to me.
    I don’t think I would consider myself a professional unless I got paid. If my company starts providing nice facilities and branding in lieu of paychecks I’m out.

  2. #82

    Louisville getting more sanctions?

    Oh sorry, I read this as "laid" </badamboomshish>

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    I think you're right, Jason, that people are too quick to predict widespread demise of college athletics.

    I have resigned myself to the view that this is for the better, when taking things as a whole - a view I did not really have a couple years ago.

    That said, I think the lion's share of the issue(s) would be resolved with some kind of cap to what athletes can receive. It's the same thing they have in the NBA and NFL. Open bidding, subject to no maximum or no controls whatsoever, seems not to lead to balanced competition. The major leagues have adopted this view for decades. College sports will have to adopt something that either does this explicitly or backdoors it through some other limiting control. I struggle to envision any other way for this to work. If this issue is solved, then I tend to believe the rest will be of secondary concern and will fall out in a reasonable way (if unpredictable today).

    - Chillin
    The NBA does mot limit endorsements. So would players have to stop selling autographs, jerseys, shoes, sweat bands, etc when they reach a certain level of earnings? Seems difficult to enforce. If there is going to be a cap, why not just let boosters pay up to a max salary instead?

    I wonder if some Duke fans will change their minds about the new format if they' start bringing in freshman classes ranked outside the top 25 due to being outbid by the bigger universities or having players transfer out for better endorsements.

    It should be interesting to watch it play out for awhile anyway.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    The NBA does mot limit endorsements. So would players have to stop selling autographs, jerseys, shoes, sweat bands, etc when they reach a certain level of earnings? Seems difficult to enforce. If there is going to be a cap, why not just let boosters pay up to a max salary instead?

    I wonder if some Duke fans will change their minds about the new format if they' start bringing in freshman classes ranked outside the top 25 due to being outbid by the bigger universities or having players transfer out for better endorsements.

    It should be interesting to watch it play out for awhile anyway.
    I have always said that the best solution it to a problem such as this is one that gives gives me my fair share and a bit more. Your scenario doesn't provide that so, it's obviously unworkable.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I don’t think I would consider myself a professional unless I got paid. If my company starts providing nice facilities and branding in lieu of paychecks I’m out.
    What about the Duke basketball program is remotely unprofessional other than the fact that, by rule, the players are not paid in cash? A $21 million annual budget isn't even minor league (a G League team runs on about $5 million), much less amateur.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    What about the Duke basketball program is remotely unprofessional other than the fact that, by rule, the players are not paid in cash?
    the definition of professional, mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxford english dictionary
    engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
    basketball is back, baby!

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    the definition of professional, mostly.
    Only if you cherry-pick the definition you like and ignore the others. Also (per Cambridge): relating to work that needs special training or education; having the qualities that you connect with trained and skilled people, such as effectiveness, skill, organization, and seriousness of manner; used to describe someone who does a job that people usually do as a hobby; having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training. And only if you ignore obvious: a budget *one hundred times* more than that of D3 colleges is hardly indicative of an "amateur" operation.

    I'll see myself out.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Huh? Why do hundreds of millions of people watch college football and basketball when the NFL and NBA are all over the dial?
    I watch college sports because I like supporting student athletes. If the players are merely less talented/experienced professionals, I will stick with the pros.
    Last edited by -jk; 05-05-2020 at 12:09 PM. Reason: fix quote tag

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by RPS View Post
    Only if you cherry-pick the definition you like and ignore the others. Also (per Cambridge): relating to work that needs special training or education; having the qualities that you connect with trained and skilled people, such as effectiveness, skill, organization, and seriousness of manner; used to describe someone who does a job that people usually do as a hobby; having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training. And only if you ignore obvious: a budget *one hundred times* more than that of D3 colleges is hardly indicative of an "amateur" operation.

    I'll see myself out.
    jobs are also paid. by definition. Please, by all means, see yourself out. The door's right there.
    basketball is back, baby!

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    jobs are also paid. by definition. Please, by all means, see yourself out. The door's right there.
    For what it is worth, the players receive up to $6000 cash in "cost of attendance" stipends. I have no idea if this makes them professionals, but there seems to be a bit of a gray area, even now.

    On a related note, I didn't notice a drop in interest in college sports when players started receiving cost of attendance money. Is it because most fans don't consider $6K is enough to make the player "professionals" or it is because most fans aren't so concerned about whether their team is made up of true amateurs? If it is mostly the former, I wonder where the line is. Would it make a difference if the players could receive $10K, $25K, $50K, $100K, $500K, or $1M?
    Last edited by House P; 05-05-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    For what it is worth, the players receive up to $6000 cash in "cost of attendance" stipends. I have no idea if this makes them professionals, but there seems to be a bit of a gray area, even now.

    On a related note, I didn't notice a drop in interest in college sports when players started receiving cost of attendance money. Is it because most fans don't consider $6K is enough to make the player "professionals" or it is because most fans aren't so concerned about whether their team is made up of true amateurs? If it is mostly the former, I wonder where the line is. Would it make a difference if the players could receive $10K, $25K, $50K, $100K, $500K, or $1M?
    I don’t know that there is a limit for fans. Title IX is probably the limiting factor.

  12. #92
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    Feb 2013
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    Cambridge, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I don’t know that there is a limit for fans. Title IX is probably the limiting factor.
    Fair point. I am not a lawyer, but I wonder about how Title IX affects any limits on NIL compensation - which seems to be where we are headed.
    Last edited by House P; 05-05-2020 at 11:00 AM.

  13. #93
    We heard identical arguments in the late 80's / early 90's when the discussion was about using professional Olympic athletes. Interest in the Olympics did not decrease when the pros joined the competition.

    ...on a side bar I think that there is a very important social justice reason for football players to get paid. Right now these players - mostly poor minorities - are sacrificing their future health (and brain function) playing for free for their schools so that the schools can use the revenue that they generate to give scholarships to rich kids to play tennis. The revenue from football should go to the players to compensate them for the hardships that they are taking on. If the alumni value the non-revenue sports they can donate to support them instead instead of placing that cost on the backs of the football team.

    (I realize that this is not really the case at Duke and that the argument makes less sense wrt basketball, but Duke is one of just a handful of programs where basketball generates more revenue than football so to the extent that this is an NCAA issue it is a football issue for most member institutions.)

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC area
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    Fair point. I am not a lawyer, but I wonder about how Title IX affects any limits on NIL compensation - which seems to be where we are headed.
    I suspect that's why schools are strictly prohibited from being party. No Title IX for private deals where the school isn't involved.

    -jk

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by House P View Post
    Fair point. I am not a lawyer, but I wonder about how Title IX affects any limits on NIL compensation - which seems to be where we are headed.
    I doubt that Dept. of Education would insist that women athletes receive the same endorsements as men athletes, because this is clearly beyond the reach of the schools. And, if you are women collegians, whom do you sue -- Nike?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Colorado
    Kind of a tangent but it will be interesting to see how many of these young men end up with tax problems. They won't be employees, so no withholding for taxes.

    They'll get that big 1099 at the end of the year and I suspect many of them will be shocked either to learn that they have to pay taxes or at the amount of the tax bill.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    Kind of a tangent but it will be interesting to see how many of these young men end up with tax problems. They won't be employees, so no withholding for taxes.

    They'll get that big 1099 at the end of the year and I suspect many of them will be shocked either to learn that they have to pay taxes or at the amount of the tax bill.
    One of the many reasons these kids are going to need agents.

  18. #98
    From NIL Valuation: How much are Duke MBB players’ Name, Image, Likeness worth? by Time Stephens:
    While the impact of pending NCAA rules changes or new state laws cannot yet be calculated, a valuable marketplace already exists for student-athletes to monetize their Name, Image & Likeness (NIL) in the near future.

    Social media platforms like Instagram, Twitter or YouTube are likely to be the first place athletes can go to create new value for themselves.

    INFLCR’s NIL team, led by former ESPN and Dallas Cowboys content leader and INFLCR COO Neeta Sreekanth, created a multi-dimensional formula to assess athletes’ per-post value for branded content on social media. Sreekanth and her team have also had the benefit of data from more than 20,000 current student-athlete users who rely on INFLCR to grow their social brand organically.

    INFLCR’s formula takes into account a variety of factors beyond followers on social media, such as team performance, sport played, and size of the conference, and has been established to help INFLCR clients and other collegiate athletic programs understand the impact and opportunities that NIL may provide for their athletes. ...
    2019-2020 Duke Men’s Basketball Roster: NIL Valuation

    At the top, a star athlete such as freshman All-American Cassius Stanley, with a following of more than 513,000 on Instagram, had an estimated annual value on the platform of $410,720. This represents an audience that could command more than $15,000 per post, according to INFLCR’s formula, and would rank among the top 5 athletes in the NCAA, according to ADU.
    ACC Player of the Year Tre Jones, with more than 385,000 combined followers across Instagram and Twitter, has an audience valued at more than $308,000.

    At the bottom, a player having as few as 14,000 followers (but playing at a very high level in a big conference) could potentially command a rate of more than $400 per post on Instagram. ...
    The 14 players on the Duke roster had a combined Instagram following of 1,545,400 (tops in college basketball), an audience estimated at more than $1.2 million in annual advertising value.

    The same players had a combined audience of 175,000 on Twitter, representing a cumulative audience value of more than $139,000.

    Collectively this represents more than $1.3 million in value that could have been available to student-athletes on the Duke basketball team. ...

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by hallcity View Post
    Does this mean I need to start building my twitter account?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by hallcity View Post
    Interesting to see real numbers, regardless of how accurate the methodology

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