The Last Dance

[SouthernDukie]

I really enjoyed watching Bird play- he was such a good shooter and smart player. He could find a million ways to beat you. Just did not play long enough.

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

[Steven43]

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

Had those things occurred, which they very well could have, Bird would likely be regarded as the greatest player of all time. Even without those things occurring many consider peak Bird to be the highest level any basketball player has attained.

[accfanfrom1970]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

[Steven43]

Bird was undoubtedly a great offensive player. But do have any memory of him trying to defend Worthy in those great Lakers-Celtics matchups? It wasn't pretty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKx8hWaG_2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVJAp7Mg1U

[luvdahops]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKx8hWaG_2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbVJAp7Mg1U

Not sure how these are responsive to my question about him defending Worthy

Bird was a great player for sure, and I absolutely get the arguments about the impact of injuries and the death of Bias on what he might have otherwise accomplished

But keep in mind that he played most of his career alongside 3 other future Hall of Famers in Parrish, McHale and DJ (I'm not counting the fumes of Bill Walton in '86 and '87)

And Bird was NEVER a dominant defensive player; he was solid to pretty good off the ball, and an outstanding defensive rebounder, but generally awful 1 on 1. And because of that, I don't include him in my short list for GOAT.

[Wahoo2000]

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

Had those things occurred, which they very well could have, Bird would likely be regarded as the greatest player of all time. Even without those things occurring many consider peak Bird to be the highest level any basketball player has attained.

"Many" as a raw number? Absolutely. "Many" as a percentage of celtics fans? Definitely.

"Many" as a percentage of overall basketball fans (without including any subjective modifiers like "smart", or "knowledgable" which are just cheap ways to take a shot at anyone that disagrees)? Not a chance.

I'd guess even if you restrict a poll of NBA fans who are at least 40-45 or so, and were likely to have witnessed "prime bird", you're unlikely to find anything approaching a majority that agree that peak Bird was "the highest level any basketball player has attained". He's great, an all timer for sure - and a top 5-10 all-timer easy. But I think MOST people would believe there's a big gap between the top 3-4 guys and the rest - even at the absolute zenith of their powers.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Russell was undoubtedly a great player, great leader and great winner.

FWIW, I would argue (in hindsight admittedly) that Havlicek was the best player on the '68 and '69 championship teams, years in which Russell averaged 12.5 and 9.9 ppg, respectively.

I also think the "Russell as ultimate winner = Russell as greatest player" logic glosses over - if not outright ignores - some inconvenient facts, namely:

Number of championships won without at least 3 future HoF teammates - ZERO

Number of years Russell led the Celtics in scoring in the regular season or playoffs - ZERO

Number of times Russell was named 1st Team All-NBA - 3 (OUT OF 13 SEASONS)

Number of times Russell had the ball in his hands with a Finals game on the line - NO IDEA, BUT SAFE TO SAY IT WAS FAR FEWER THAN MJ, LEBRON OR KAREEM

Why is Tom Brady considered the GOAT in football? Not because of his individual statistics. Football is a team sport, and Brady led his teams to NFL championships.

Likewise, basketball is a team sport. The great players make their teammates better and win team championships. There’s no player who measures up to Bill Russell in making his teammates better and his teams winners. Russell’s teams won the championships ... NCAA, NBA, Olympics.

Bill Russell may not have taken/made the winning shot, but he likely set it up with intimidating defense, ferocious rebounding, and some amazing passing. He is the GOAT.

[arnie]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

[dukelifer]

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

I rooted against the Bulls in most of their championships - but this is also a documentary on that period of time in basketball. Hard to know how we got to the current state of the game without understanding the past. This is a time when both college ball and the NBA were in their primes, imho.

[bigperm13]

No, you’re not alone, I will not turn it on.

I won't give it a second. Michael Jordan can go you know what himself.

[J4Kop99]

Agreed. And it seemed like about half the time he did play he had some nagging injury.

Greatest “What if” in Boston Celtic history: what if Len Bias hadn’t died? How many more championships would Bird & Co have won? I have to believe they’d have won the rubber match in their 80’s bouts with the Lakers [ducks head as LA fans blow up].

Rather than use the off-season to rest his body, he would head back to French Lick and lay pavement and shovel gravel for his moms driveway...


You were making good money, Larry! Just pay a few teenagers. They show his mom's house in the magic/bird documentary. That driveway was HUGE!

[dukebluesincebirth]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it. Bird, Russell, Magic, Curry, Pistol Pete, the Big O. All the Duke guys like Hill, Hurley and Laettner. Never was interested in Jordan, rooted for Charles in the finals.

I might watch some of it because there's absolutely nothing else to watch, but you are certainly not alone in your disinterest of Jordan. Never rooted for him, he's a Tar Heel, and always rooted for Charles as well. Plus Jordan traveled about 50% of the time he made a move to the basket. Respect him as a great player, but Lebron is better all-around.

[SouthernDukie]

I might watch some of it because there's absolutely nothing else to watch, but you are certainly not alone in your disinterest of Jordan. Never rooted for him, he's a Tar Heel, and always rooted for Charles as well. Plus Jordan traveled about 50% of the time he made a move to the basket. Respect him as a great player, but Lebron is better all-around.

Agreed on all points. Never rooted for Jordan - he is/was/will always be a Tar Heel. Don't understand why any Duke fan would.

[wsb3]

I will always believe that if Bias had not died Bird would have won at least two more championships, and quite possibly three, which would have given him a total of six. Not only would Bias have been a major contributor to the team -- similar to Worthy for the Lakers -- he would have taken a lot of the stress off of Bird, which would have allowed him to stay healthier and play several more seasons.

I think that is a very fair speculation. The tragic death of Len Bias is one of those moments, at least for me, where you remember where you were when you heard the news.

I remember watching the game vs Duke in 86 which Duke won but I marveled at Bias, as he put up 40 against us.

[weezie]

I guess I’m alone in having no interest or watching none of it...

You are absolutely not alone. Haven't seen a second of it and have no interest.

Signed, weezie the Detroiter.

[bullettoothtony]

Agreed on all points. Never rooted for Jordan - he is/was/will always be a Tar Heel. Don't understand why any Duke fan would.

I love Jordan as a player. He remains the GOAT and I couldn't care less where he went to college. The rivalry simply doesn't induce that kind of bias in me.

To each his or her own I suppose.

And I'm watching every minute of The Last Dance. I wouldn't miss it.

[luvdahops]

Why is Tom Brady considered the GOAT in football? Not because of his individual statistics. Football is a team sport, and Brady led his teams to NFL championships.

Likewise, basketball is a team sport. The great players make their teammates better and win team championships. There’s no player who measures up to Bill Russell in making his teammates better and his teams winners. Russell’s teams won the championships ... NCAA, NBA, Olympics.

Bill Russell may not have taken/made the winning shot, but he likely set it up with intimidating defense, ferocious rebounding, and some amazing passing. He is the GOAT.

Flawed comparison, as Brady's stats are very much part of his GOAT argument. He ranks 2nd all-time in TDs and passing yards, and 5th best all-time in passer rating and interception percentage. He was among the league leaders in those categories throughout most of his career. The guys ahead of him in passer rating and interception percentage all started their careers later, and benefited more from loosening of rules for the passing game. Football is a team sport, but QB is the most important position by a wide margin, and Brady was the best at it for much of his career, and not just because he won championships. Russell wasn't even the best center of his era, much less the best player of all time.

[Travis]

I do not really want to debate who is the GOAT, although to me it is Jordan, but there is no way Bill Russell is not the best center of his era.

I presume the argument is that Wilt is better. Head to head with Russell, with good surrounding talent, Wilt won one championship. And one more after, Russell retired when it is not clear that Wilt was the best man on the Laker team. Admittedly Bill Simmons is biased, but anyone who thinks Russell was not better than Wilt should read his long chapter just destroying that argument. I Grew up in NY hating the Celtics and It is still completely convincing.

Now a more interesting question is was Russell the best center of all time? And I think the answer is no. I think Kareem has to be put there, even though comparing eras is always difficult.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I do not really want to debate who is the GOAT, although to me it is Jordan, but there is no way Bill Russell is not the best center of his era.

I presume the argument is that Wilt is better. Head to head with Russell, with good surrounding talent, Wilt won one championship. And one more after, Russell retired when it is not clear that Wilt was the best man on the Laker team. Admittedly Bill Simmons is biased, but anyone who thinks Russell was not better than Wilt should read his long chapter just destroying that argument. I Grew up in NY hating the Celtics and It is still completely convincing.

Now a more interesting question is was Russell the best center of all time? And I think the answer is no. I think Kareem has to be put there, even though comparing eras is always difficult.

If you have time on your hands, look up the stats on Russell v Wilt. Amazing numbers on both sides.

My best center would be Kareem, for being so good for so long.

[-jk]

If you have time on your hands, look up the stats on Russell v Wilt. Amazing numbers on both sides.

My best center would be Kareem, for being so good for so long.

My dad said he didn't work hard enough on defense.

-jk