The Last Dance

[Music man55]

After watching the whole 10 episodes, I'll have to agree Jordan is most probably the best ever. But I still don't like him. Not then, not now.

[flyingdutchdevil]

After watching the whole 10 episodes, I'll have to agree Jordan is most probably the best ever. But I still don't like him. Not then, not now.

This is my take too. I think he is the greatest player, and I absolutely credit him with "internationalizing" the game. But I really don't like him. He's a Tar Heel. He defeated my late 90s Jazz twice. And he is a crappy, crappy GM.

But dammit, he can play.

[fuse]

I’m still torn between Jordan as the most competitive human being who ever lived, and best basketball player.

Not that the above are mutually exclusive. Could Jordan have been an MLB major leaguer? A pro golfer? A pro gambler?

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

[Natty_B]

This was good:

https://slate.com/culture/2020/05/th...s-wizards.html

[J4Kop99]

I’m still torn between Jordan as the most competitive human being who ever lived, and best basketball player.

Not that the above are mutually exclusive. Could Jordan have been an MLB major leaguer? A pro golfer? A pro gambler?

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

Competitiveness and stubbornness sometimes go hand-in-hand. He is the most stubborn human being I have ever come in contact with. I think this is why he is such a poor basketball operations person. That and he is known as one of the cheapest SOB's around. Not a good combo.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You’d think that competitive streak would surface in trying to make the Charlotte Hornets a better basketball team.

This is a sticking point for me too.

[bundabergdevil]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.

[mattyoung18]

He is probably the greatest but a documentary done totally in his favor he still is incredibly petty and gives no one credit.He had the perfect coach and sidekick in Pippen that helped Jordan immensely.

[AZLA]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.

Ha! I laughed so hard at that. What a hilarious background discussion -- like a bunch of boys who just got scolded by dad. "Way to go, Craig..." and mess it up for the rest of us. Ah the press -- geez Greg did you have to ruin it for the rest of us, nitwit?!

[Skydog]

There is not enough discussion about the real star of the show: whoever said, "way to go, Craig" at the reporter who asked the backstabbing question of Jerry Krause and sent him storming off the dais at the opening of Ep 7.

That was my favorite line of the whole documentary. I know...I’m weird.

[bundabergdevil]

That was my favorite line of the whole documentary. I know...I’m weird.

I obviously came here just to post about it!

It’s like someone saying to Craig, “you let the whole team down!”

Just cracked me up.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I finished the series last night.

You can't deny that what the Bulls did was remarkable and made for some interesting television. The nostalgia factor definitely kept me glued to the screen.

MJ's fierce competitive nature was definitely bared to everyone, for better and for worse.

I still come back to how few people who knew him personally seemed to "like" him. Ahmad Rashard? Anyone else?

Steve Kerr actually sounded more MJ friendly than most by the end. The other either blatantly disliked him, tolerated him, saw him as a means to an end, begrudgingly respected him... Not a lot of warmth.

Phil? Did Phil even like Jordan?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

[WiJoe]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

I doubt Laettner pitched quarters with managers, punched a teammate in the face, played golf and cards for thousands of dollars, or paid baggage handlers to make sure his bags came to the claim area first then bet unsuspecting teammates about the fixed "competition."

Jordan can't touch Laettner's college career with a stack of a million $1 bills.

Was Laettner competitive. Sure. That might be an interesting question for Coach K.

For me? Apples and oranges.

[bundabergdevil]

Question... Just considered this as I saw his name on another thread. Couldn't you argue that Laettner had a similar competitive streak as Jordan? Clearly he didn't have the same professional level talent, but if you had a ten hour documentary on him, would we see some of the same traits?

Stan Van Gundy made this point but used a different Duke alum: JJ Redick.

I generally agree with SVG's point. I think we've mythologized MJ's competitiveness because he was so successful. We do this plenty of places, attribute some indefinable quality to people who maximized various talents, were lucky, in the right spot at the right time, and had certain personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that are ultra-competitive in pro- or amateur sports, not to mention bar darts. And, I'm sure there are plenty of guys just as competitive as MJ but he paired all-world talent with that competitiveness.

Now, not all all-world talents are driven and competitive. Kobe famously didn't think Shaq worked hard enough to maximize his talents.

[kAzE]

Growing up, I always rooted against Jordan. It didn't matter who he was playing against. I always respected him, but I just didn't like him. Maybe I'm a weirdo, but this docu-series has definitely changed my opinion of him.

I always knew Jordan was a ruthless competitor and how he treated his teammates and opponents. However, I think this series gives the viewer much more perspective to his internal motivations and how his personality fueled everything he did. I feel like I understand Jordan the person better, and I'm now a fan. The series helped me understand why he did the things he did, and how it helped him (and how much it cost him) to become the G.O.A.T.

For the first time, I genuinely empathized with MJ the person. Seeing him crying on the floor after the 1995 NBA finals really brought home the heavy, heavy toll that his relentless pursuit of greatness had taken on him.

Did he have a lot of issues as a human being, between his neglect of his family (which was completely skipped over in the series), his vicious attitude towards other people, and his gambling? Of course, but these are the type human flaws that we all have. Would I have enjoyed playing with him? Hell no. Not in a million years. But is he the best damn player ever, and is it not even remotely close? Absolutely yes.

[Tripping William]

Pizza Man speaks (and says, in essence, that MJ’s trainer is full of I’m a real wanker for saying this.

[cato]

Stan Van Gundy made this point but used a different Duke alum: JJ Redick.

I generally agree with SVG's point. I think we've mythologized MJ's competitiveness because he was so successful. We do this plenty of places, attribute some indefinable quality to people who maximized various talents, were lucky, in the right spot at the right time, and had certain personality traits. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that are ultra-competitive in pro- or amateur sports, not to mention bar darts. And, I'm sure there are plenty of guys just as competitive as MJ but he paired all-world talent with that competitiveness.

Now, not all all-world talents are driven and competitive. Kobe famously didn't think Shaq worked hard enough to maximize his talents.

I mean Shaq didn’t. If Shaq had the relentless need to beat everyone in everything that Jordan, Kobe, whoever had, he either would have been hands down the best basketball player ever or arrested, because Jordan could get away with punching Steve Kerr in the face. Shaq would have killed him.

At any rate, Shaq seems to have travelled the more fulfilling path.

[bundabergdevil]

I mean Shaq didn’t. If Shaq had the relentless need to beat everyone in everything that Jordan, Kobe, whoever had, he either would have been hands down the best basketball player ever or arrested, because Jordan could get away with punching Steve Kerr in the face. Shaq would have killed him.

At any rate, Shaq seems to have travelled the more fulfilling path.

Oh, yeah. Shaq cruised on his overwhelming physical presence, particularly in the final third of his career. I didn't mean to imply Kobe was wrong, he wasn't.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Oh, yeah. Shaq cruised on his overwhelming physical presence, particularly in the final third of his career. I didn't mean to imply Kobe was wrong, he wasn't.

Since we're on this tangent...

I'll admit I watched all episodes of Shaq Life.

If you think The Last Dance was fluff...