The Last Dance

[jv001]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

I don't remember Jordan being that kind of person(jerk) when he played at uncheat and when he first entered the NBA. But when he became famous, he took it to another level. I'll take Bill Russell as the best basketball player ever and certainly as a better person but that's just my opinion and that doesn't amount to much.

GoDuke!

[ice-9]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

It gave me a laugh, because it was his competitiveness showing through. You could tell he got irked by the idea that the Glove can slow him down. If they were playing a game the next day I'd expect Jordan to go ham on Payton.

I agree with Payton though that if he was sicced on Jordan from the beginning that would've made the series more interesting.

[ChillinDuke]

MJ chuckling and shrugging off Payton's discussion of his defense was the most off-putting part of the documentary so far. It would require the slightest humility to say "yeah, you know, Gary got into my head a few games and then I figured it out in time to win the series." But he doesn't give him even that much. Just a belly laugh and a head shake.

Serious jerk.

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

Oh, I get all that and I agree 100%. It was just the most stark example of his inability to even acknowledge a weakness. And yes, without that edge he doesn't win six rings. But at some point it resembles a CEO who only eyes the bottom line, with zero regard for employees, ethics, or the community at large. Which I suppose is fair apt.

[Bluedog]

I don't remember Jordan being that kind of person(jerk) when he played at uncheat and when he first entered the NBA. But when he became famous, he took it to another level. I'll take Bill Russell as the best basketball player ever and certainly as a better person but that's just my opinion and that doesn't amount to much.

GoDuke!

I guess I can't fault him too much, but in my one in person interaction with Bill Russell, I asked if I could take a quick picture with him and I got scolded by the woman he was with (his wife?). Apparently, he's notorious for not giving away his autograph. Not saying that necessarily makes him a bad person and he could certainly be a great guy. Incidentally, he did not reply/acknolwedge my question. It was on the campus of Wash U ...he was just standing there alone for several minutes and nobody was bothering him so thought it'd be okay.

[Tripping William]

That's the point though. You can't have it both ways with Jordan.

If he had the slightest bit of humility, he isn't the player that he was. He doesn't straight crush you on the court, off the court, and everywhere in between. Jordan doesn't give an inch. Ever. Period. That is the whole point of his greatness / the documentary / everything. Jordan's operating system doesn't have humility in its code.

- Chillin

Yep. And we have known this since at least his HOF speech.

[duke4ever19]

Point by point, or "bolded by bolded" as it were:
1) Jordan had problems on the court? Not really aware of this - once he won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*...
2) "not in basketball shape yet". I'm no Jordan fanboy, but even I'll admit that nearly 2 years training specifically for baseball and not playing basketball at a professional level is more of a reason than an excuse for not winning a title in '95
3) LeBron's losses - with the plural being the operative phrase. LeBron is great - GREAT. But he just hasn't dominated regarding controlling the crown every time he played the majority of a season for nearly a decade. It's true that Jordan didn't have to deal with a super-team like the Warriors, and if he did, there might be a different story on him being the GOAT. I don't think he ever wilted when it counted the most in the same way James did in the finals vs Dallas.

I will agree that Jordan's charm and charisma allowed him to be the proverbial golden boy throughout the late 80s and for a chunk into the early 90s. That was an age before the social media era as well as the 24hour news cycle where EVERYTHING celebs do it overanalyzed. I would say that Jordan did also catch an extraordinary amount of grief over the gambling stuff though, and DO agree with the PoV of the doc that some of that irresponsible reporting (i.e. suggesting his gambling was at the root of his father's murder) led to his premature (1st) retirement.

I also agree that Jordan as a person has some serious flaws (that CAN largely be attributed to his insane level of competitive fire, but that's no excuse). The long and short of it is that the guy can be a real "wanker". Just like with Tiger Woods though, people (at least the vast majority of people) will nearly completely forgive/overlook HUGE personality flaws in the face of absolute GREATNESS between the lines/ropes.

TLDR - Jordan was/is kind of a d!c%, but sooooo great that MOST people don't care, or outright ignore it.

I don't really care about the 'Jordan is a jerk' angle. I'm not critiquing that aspect of his career and it's not so interesting, because it kinda boils down to 'He was mean sometimes.'

Your statement that "once he [Jordan] won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*..." is a good example of a common 'Jordan is the GOAT' argument.

It's a representative example for a couple reasons: (1) It obliquely acknowledges a pre-1991 Jordan era, but only as a stepping-stone to the 1991 season. (2) Jordan's GOAT career ends abruptly in 1998. The Wizard's years are barely acknowledged, which creates an interesting, but artificial 'bookend' affect, which treat the events before that time and after that time as murky and largely unimportant, or not something we should hold against him when debating who the GOAT is.

The pre-1991 period is typically only brought up in a very charitable "trial by fire" narrative in which Jordan's years of getting ousted before the Finals are not actually seen as negatives, but just factoids of a fascinating odyssey. I have no problems with that narrative, but I do have problems with the way that kind of charity is quite overtly NOT extended to certain other potential GOAT candidates. In fact, early career playoff losses are brought up constantly to diminish the total career. It is also interesting that other GOATS reached the championship mountaintop sooner than Jordan, but you won't see that used to diminish Jordan, because we know that team sports are complicated.

[JayZee]

Yep. And we have known this since at least his HOF speech.

Yeah, unfortunately MJ really has held onto a lot of anger over the years. Sucks for him more than anyone. He's driven away many good friends, like Charles Barkley.
Really it's too bad. It is also a bit of a statement of his ridiculous charisma that he can be such a pain and still we are all (well maybe not all) drawn to him.

[JasonEvans]

I guess I can't fault him too much, but in my one in person interaction with Bill Russell, I asked if I could take a quick picture with him and I got scolded by the woman he was with (his wife?). Apparently, he's notorious for not giving away his autograph. Not saying that necessarily makes him a bad person and he could certainly be a great guy. Incidentally, he did not reply/acknolwedge my question. It was on the campus of Wash U ...he was just standing there alone for several minutes and nobody was bothering him so thought it'd be okay.

Yeah, I was just going to say that Russell's rep is not what one would ordinarily cite as a person who handles his fame and success with perfect grace and humility. I've met a few sports superstars in my time and there are two who stand out above the rest in terms of how they deal with fans and how they handle their success -- David Robinson and Larry Fitzgerald. Both guys are certainly among the greatest of all time at their sport but you would not know it from chatting with them. Perfect gentlemen who seem to treat fans and the public like a special gift to be treasured and appreciated at all times.

[Natty_B]

I don't really care about the 'Jordan is a jerk' angle. I'm not critiquing that aspect of his career and it's not so interesting, because it kinda boils down to 'He was mean sometimes.'

Your statement that "once he [Jordan] won a title, he won it every time he played until he retired *excepting*..." is a good example of a common 'Jordan is the GOAT' argument.

It's a representative example for a couple reasons: (1) It obliquely acknowledges a pre-1991 Jordan era, but only as a stepping-stone to the 1991 season. (2) Jordan's GOAT career ends abruptly in 1998. The Wizard's years are barely acknowledged, which creates an interesting, but artificial 'bookend' affect, which treat the events before that time and after that time as murky and largely unimportant, or not something we should hold against him when debating who the GOAT is.

The pre-1991 period is typically only brought up in a very charitable "trial by fire" narrative in which Jordan's years of getting ousted before the Finals are not actually seen as negatives, but just factoids of a fascinating odyssey. I have no problems with that narrative, but I do have problems with the way that kind of charity is quite overtly NOT extended to certain other potential GOAT candidates. In fact, early career playoff losses are brought up constantly to diminish the total career. It is also interesting that other GOATS reached the championship mountaintop sooner than Jordan, but you won't see that used to diminish Jordan, because we know that team sports are complicated.

Totally agree with this. The MJ narrative means you can't ever nitpick his career (sheesh this week people are trying to say he could have made the Major Leagues by 1996 - I mean c'mon). Where Lebron's career is nitpicked to death (mainly because people, like the front page, are upset about the Decision even though it was a decade ago and Lebron WENT BACK TO CLEVELAND AND WON A TITLE THERE).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I heard a local sports guy yammering about the documentary say that the difference between MJ and LeBron is that MJ wants you to fear him and bow to him, while James wants you to like him.

Oversimplification? Sure. But definitely a grain of truth.

[SupaDave]

I heard a local sports guy yammering about the documentary say that the difference between MJ and LeBron is that MJ wants you to fear him and bow to him, while James wants you to like him.

Oversimplification? Sure. But definitely a grain of truth.

Yeah - one is a sociopath and the other is well, normal...

[WiJoe]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...nba-last-dance

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...nba-last-dance

Which makes it even more remarkable that he comes off as such a jerk.

[79-77]

I can understand why some here don't like Jordan, but holy mackerel he is intense and compelling, even now.

"I hated Isiah."

"I took offense at being compared to Drexler."

The look on his face when he was asked about Pippen's migraine in game 7 vs the Pistons.

It's great stuff for this documentary.

[bundabergdevil]

This is not a documentary in the true sense of the word.

It's a hagiography.

It's a 10-hour feature on Jordan, approved by. Anyone who believes Jordan did not have last say on EVERY SECOND is kidding him/herself.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...nba-last-dance

Yeah, I made the point upthread that MJ is the least interesting person in this documentary to me and that's clearly by design. I've really enjoyed the backstory on all the teammates but Jordan is just kind of boring and I think he is clearly and intently adding to the mythology of his singular competitiveness, which I've always thought was a little overblown. It's just hard to be as interested in the subject of a documentary that is driving the narrative about his own deeds.

[duke96]

Which makes it even more remarkable that he comes off as such a jerk.

Can’t spork again but that’s hysterical.

[duke96]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

[Tripping William]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

Some SLC pizza delivery mafia poisoned him. Didn’t you know that??

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The flu game was the bad pizza game!?! Do we believe this??

I had always heard it was a hangover.