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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #221
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

    Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
    Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
    Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
    John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
    Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
    Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
    Reggie Miller (HOF)

    Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.
    Last edited by Rich; 05-20-2020 at 05:40 PM.
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  2. #222
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Outside Philly
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Since we're on this tangent...

    I'll admit I watched all episodes of Shaq Life.

    If you think The Last Dance was fluff...
    Maybe, but Shaqtin a Fool will one day be aired in MoMA, his send up of Javale McGee his Citizen Kane.

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Chicago
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I finished the series last night.

    You can't deny that what the Bulls did was remarkable and made for some interesting television. The nostalgia factor definitely kept me glued to the screen.

    MJ's fierce competitive nature was definitely bared to everyone, for better and for worse.

    I still come back to how few people who knew him personally seemed to "like" him. Ahmad Rashard? Anyone else?

    Steve Kerr actually sounded more MJ friendly than most by the end. The other either blatantly disliked him, tolerated him, saw him as a means to an end, begrudgingly respected him... Not a lot of warmth.

    Phil? Did Phil even like Jordan?
    As someone who has lived in Chicago for much of my adult life, and was here throughout the Bulls' championship era, I think you raise some fair questions.

    I believe Pippen genuinely likes Michael, and absolutely credits Jordan with helping him reach his peak as a player. But Scottie has always harbored some resentment over not being given his full due by Jordan, who has always treated him more as a "the leader of my supporting cast" than a true sidekick and near peer, even during the second 3-peat, when Pippen was clearly among the league's top players. And that definitely came through in "the Last Dance" and the media coverage surrounding it.

    It is my sense that Horace Grant is being at least a bit disingenuous in not owning up to spilling dirt to Sam Smith for "The Jordan Rules", and his departure for Orlando left a bad taste in the mouths of many in the Bulls organization. And he's not helping himself by continuing to try to fan some flames now that the mini-series has wrapped. Suggests that he and Jordan never reconciled. The "straight up bitches" quote was a highlight though.

    Not sure about Phil. I do think he probably liked Jordan on some level, and certainly respected him and made plenty of accommodations for him in his coaching approach. But their personalities are just so different, and MJ clearly never bought into any of Jackson's Zen philosophies. Very interesting to contrast to Phil's relationship with Kobe.

    I'd say there were a few other players that seemed pretty friendly with Jordan, namely Scott Burrell, and John Paxson and Cliff Levingston from the early 90s squads. But it's not a long list.

  4. #224
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Just finished Episode 10 and remembered I had these tucked away in storage. I worked for the NBA at the time and had the privilege of attending all 6 games of the 1998 Finals (and Game 7 if it was to be).

    Photo May 21, 9 54 00 PM.jpg
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Winston’Salem
    I guess this is as good a place as any to post this sad news. RIP, Jerry Sloan (former Bull and the long-time Utah Jazz head coach, including during the '97 and '98 Finals).
    "Amazing what a minute can do."

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Mount Kisco, NY
    This topic relates to MJ but then tangents to Duke.

    Right after watching the last episode, I began reading Ethan Strauss book about the recent Warriors teams titled, "The Victory Machine".

    There is a chapter about sneaker contracts and how import they are in the pecking order of the NBA. Steph Curry left Nike because he was not a priority for them. When he signed with Under Armour, it was a huge deal as it coincided with his rise to MVP-level stardom. His emergence was a dagger to Nike, who'd had him and lost him, and getting their guy KD to the Warriors party was a huge counter punch. The drama has other angles though because KD was not the top dog at Nike, that would be Lebron and, obviously, MJ sits atop that throne, which brings me back to "The Last Dance".

    One of MJ's primary legacies is the emergence of sneakers as cultural icons and the tie of a player and a brand rather than a player and his team. This started with Jordan, but Jordan the player was always associated with the Bulls, his coda with the Wizards is largely ignored. Obviously, his association with Nike has persisted now for some 35 years, and it is that association that has made him a billionaire (I know the Hornets are the primary ballast but Nike provided all that original $$$). Lebron represents the evolution of this idea because MJs will always be considered a Bull, but, like Mike, most of Lebron's money comes from Nike. They are his primary employer, not any of the teams he's played for. As his brand has grown so strong, it competes or exceeds the brand of the team he plays for. Lebron's brand is stronger than the Cavs and stronger than the Heat. The Lakers are obviously a huge, iconic brand, but when Lebron signed, whose brand was exerting the stronger influence over the other? Obviously, the two brands burnish each other, but I'd argue that Lebron is currently doing more for the Lakers brand than the Lakers are doing for Lebrons brand.

    This brings me to Duke, an enormously powerful brand. So here's the question, is Zion Williamson the first Duke player to ever have a stronger brand than the school, and did he do more for the Duke brand than the Duke brand did for him? I'd argue it's probably a dead heat. Duke obviously had the stronger brand when he started, and gave him the platform to further launch his brand, but by the time he left, it felt like his brand had transcended Duke's by a fair margin - he was WAY bigger than the team from a brand perspective, and that shine sprinkled lots of twinkly fairy dust on to Duke. I'll ignore the headlines he's involved in now with the lawsuits and all that - but I found it really interesting in the context of watching the doc and reading this book to think about who was bigger, Zion or Duke?

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

    Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
    Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
    Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
    John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
    Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
    Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
    Reggie Miller (HOF)

    Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.
    If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

    Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

    Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.
    JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.
    Ha. I was actually cross posting with family in the UK about a soccer player. His name: Jordon Ibe.

  10. #230
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New Orleans, Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

    Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wahoo2000 View Post
    JordOn? I'm gonna assume this is a Duke v Carolina thing and an intentional joke. Because I can't imagine any basketball fan on the planet doesn't know the correct spelling of Michael Jordan's name. Sorry for the flack, Kdogg, and apologies also to anyone else who is perpetually annoyed by the spelling/grammar police type of posts.
    I believe in proper spelling, even of Carolina people, but here are some valid reasons to spell it "Jordon":

    1. He never takes a day off. He's always JordON.
    2. Tribute to Mario Puzo: he's the last JorDON of the league.
    3. He's not just Batman, but Commissioner Jordon as well. (the late David Stern nods his head)
    4. Abbreviates the saying by Basketball Yoda, aka Phil Jackson: "Jump, OR DO Not. There is no triangle."
    5. It's "Jordon" like "cordon", as in "The filmmakers of The Last Dance jordoned off the editing room so that Michael could enter but Scottie could not."

  11. #231
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    If you put Clyde in there you have to include Shaq. Both did win when Jordon was away.

    Jordon is probably responsible for the majority of the top ten NBA players without a ring.
    My bad - I forgot that Drexler won an NBA championship with Houston in 1995.

    I originally had Gary Payton on there too, until I realized he won one with the Heat in 2006.
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  12. #232
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Outside Philly
    Finally finished the 10th episode.

    1. Man, do we need a modern Rodman in sports. Someone who peaces out to party with Hulk Hogan at WWE IN BETWEEN games 3 and 4 of the Finals. Closest comparison in recent years I can think of is Cowboys fans getting pissed that Tony Romo went to Cabo w/ Jessica Simpson before the play-offs.

    2. I'm still not clear what Bulls management was thinking/doing blowing up the team. Then again, the Bulls are worth 200x more than when JR bought them so maybe I'm the one who isn't thinking straight.

  13. #233
    It would appear the light is shining on one of Jordanís lies from The Last Dance (about whether he specifically blackballed Isaiah Thomas from the Dream Team). Interesting that ESPN played the story, and will be interesting to see if it gets more attention.

    Link here: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...mas-dream-team

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by duke96 View Post
    It would appear the light is shining on one of Jordanís lies from The Last Dance (about whether he specifically blackballed Isaiah Thomas from the Dream Team). Interesting that ESPN played the story, and will be interesting to see if it gets more attention.

    Link here: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...mas-dream-team
    I donít know that it really matters one way or the other. And I donít feel the slightest bit bad for Isaiah Thomas that he was not on that team. Heís done many disrespectful, childish, and arrogant things over the years and I donít care for him. Darn good basketball player, but apparently not well-liked by his peers. I donít blame any of them for not wanting him on that team.

  15. #235
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    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    I donít know that it really matters one way or the other. And I donít feel the slightest bit bad for Isaiah Thomas that he was not on that team. Heís done many disrespectful, childish, and arrogant things over the years and I donít care for him. Darn good basketball player, but apparently not well-liked by his peers. I donít blame any of them for not wanting him on that team.
    But Steven, those same qualities or things could be given to mj but I could see where the players on the Dream Team would want mj over Isiah. Then again, mj is a tarcheat.

    GoDuke!

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I just finished Episode 9 and it occurred to me how many Hall of Famers (and Dream Teamers) were directly deprived rings because of Michael Jordan and those Bulls teams:

    Patrick Ewing (HOF and Dream Team)
    Clyde Drexler (HOF and Dream Team)
    Karl Malone (HOF and Dream Team)
    John Stockton (HOF and Dream Team)
    Chris Mullin (HOF and Dream Team)
    Charles Barkley (HOF and Dream Team)
    Reggie Miller (HOF)

    Basically, a whole generation of amazing basketball talent did not win a championship in large part because they faced, and lost to, Jordan and the Bulls.
    Those players didnt have Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen an always open Paxon or Kerr ,Jordan getting fouls calls if hes barely touched and Home court advantage.Quite a few advantages for dem bulls.

  17. #237
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by mattyoung18 View Post
    Those players didnt have Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen an always open Paxon or Kerr ,Jordan getting fouls calls if hes barely touched and Home court advantage.Quite a few advantages for dem bulls.
    I could be misinterpreting, but it seems youíre not a Michael Jordan fan. Just a hunch.

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