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Thread: The Last Dance

  1. #1

    The Last Dance

    I watched the first two episodes of the story of the Bulls last championship season. This was really entertaining- and a fascinating glimpse into professional basketball at the time. They do a nice job of showing the history of the key players and Jerry Krause is the clear villain in this story. I did not really know Scottie Pippen's story- how he entered college as a 6' 1" guard - eventually got a scholarship and somehow grew 7 inches in a couple of years and began to dominate. But at some point, because he was worried about providing for his extended family, he took a long term 18M contract just at the time salaries were exploding and the Bulls never let him renegotiate. They also told a 5 time championship coach in Jackson- even if you win 82 games next year- you will not be back. Just amazing.
    dukelifer

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    I watched the first two episodes of the story of the Bulls last championship season. This was really entertaining- and a fascinating glimpse into professional basketball at the time. They do a nice job of showing the history of the key players and Jerry Krause is the clear villain in this story. I did not really know Scottie Pippen's story- how he entered college as a 6' 1" guard - eventually got a scholarship and somehow grew 7 inches in a couple of years and began to dominate. But at some point, because he was worried about providing for his extended family, he took a long term 18M contract just at the time salaries were exploding and the Bulls never let him renegotiate. They also told a 5 time championship coach in Jackson- even if you win 82 games next year- you will not be back. Just amazing.
    I knew everything in your post except for the last statement about Jackson. What??!! What was their reasoning behind that? I plan to get around to watching it, but in this day and age of binge watching, I don't like to start anything until many or all of the episodes are available. Streaming services have spoiled us.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by left_hook_lacey View Post
    I knew everything in your post except for the last statement about Jackson. What??!! What was their reasoning behind that? I plan to get around to watching it, but in this day and age of binge watching, I don't like to start anything until many or all of the episodes are available. Streaming services have spoiled us.
    Jerry Krause was emphatic on that point. They would begin rebuilding the following year, regardless of the results. It seems completely insane, but in the context of the show, he is incredibly jealous of the attention and credit given to MJ, Scottie, Rodman, and Phil.

    I hope they will offer some airtime to Jerry, as I sincerely doubt it was as one-sided as they have made it out to be.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Jerry Krause was emphatic on that point. They would begin rebuilding the following year, regardless of the results. It seems completely insane, but in the context of the show, he is incredibly jealous of the attention and credit given to MJ, Scottie, Rodman, and Phil.

    I hope they will offer some airtime to Jerry, as I sincerely doubt it was as one-sided as they have made it out to be.
    Jerry Krause is deceased.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MartyClark View Post
    Jerry Krause is deceased.
    Well, I didn't mean in real time. They had soundbites from David Stern.

  6. #6
    Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?
    As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

    Next week should be:

    Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.

  8. #8
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    Really interesting first two episodes.

    Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
    Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

    Next week should be:

    Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.
    Thank you, thatís great news!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Well, I didn't mean in real time. They had soundbites from David Stern.
    Krause did die in 2017. However, they did include a few soundbites from JK in episode #2 last night. Those were clearly not recent. I'm sure they will have more as we go on. I remember the whole JK, MJ, SP, PJ saga quite well and always sided with the players and coach but I still felt last nights episodes were a bit lopsided against JK.

    I do love that nobody made the connection between the villain in Space Jam and Jerry Krause until now... I thought that was quote obvious at the time haha.


    -In terms of interviews for the documentary. David Stern was actually interviewed before his death. Same with Kobe Bryant. Kobe's took place about a week before his passing if I'm not mistaken.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
    Is ESPN showing episodes more than once?
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    As I understand it, there will be two new episodes each Sunday at 9&10pm est. The previous weeks episodes will air beforehand. Not sure if they will also replay throughout the week.

    Next week should be:

    Sunday: Episode 1 at 7pm, Episode 2 at 8pm, Episode 3 at 9 and Episode 4 at 10.
    I just checked ESPN's upcoming schedule for Sunday, and the times (Eastern) for Episodes 1-4 are correct.

    You can also stream the first two episodes on the website. (Not sure if it works for those who don't get ESPN from any service provider.)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Really interesting first two episodes.

    Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
    Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird
    How about Dean Smith?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    How about Dean Smith?
    And, dare I say it... Ol' Roy -- although if we're being honest, he was most likely just nodding and saying "yes sir" to Dean.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by J4Kop99 View Post
    Krause did die in 2017. However, they did include a few soundbites from JK in episode #2 last night. Those were clearly not recent. I'm sure they will have more as we go on. I remember the whole JK, MJ, SP, PJ saga quite well and always sided with the players and coach but I still felt last nights episodes were a bit lopsided against JK.

    I do love that nobody made the connection between the villain in Space Jam and Jerry Krause until now... I thought that was quote obvious at the time haha.


    -In terms of interviews for the documentary. David Stern was actually interviewed before his death. Same with Kobe Bryant. Kobe's took place about a week before his passing if I'm not mistaken.
    Some of it came across as it is not personal - it is business-but still. Clearly- resulting in a lot of bad feelings. The story of Jordan's broken foot during his second year was very interesting, with some docs saying if he came back too soon and re-injured it- it may never heal- and his career would be over - and Jordan still pushed it. So much good stuff.
    dukelifer

  15. #15
    After the first episode, I definitely noticed the "Krause as villain" storyline that others have already mentioned. I'm a bit concerned that Krause (the dead guy) is being portrayed as the villain while Reinsdorf (the very much alive guy who was Krause's boss, remains an NBA owner to this day, and gave Krause the job in the first place just because Krause asked for it) gets to come across as an authority figure. Does not bode well for the fair telling of history that I'd expect from a documentary, especially one as hyped as this one.

    That said, the sniping comments from Bulls players about Krause were definitely eye-opening to me. There was clear acrimony there and Krause certainly deserves his share of the blame.

  16. #16
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    Just so we are all clear, Jordan had a fair bit of creative control over the project and it could not proceed without his agreement to release the footage. I'm not saying that making Krause the villain is unfair or inaccurate, but he would not be portrayed that way if Jordan had not approved of it.
    I don't know what you are doing right now, but if you aren't listening to the DBR Podcast, you're doing it wrong.

  17. #17
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    Jordan's Last College Game

    This inspired me to watch Jordan's last college game. Packer called game over with over 5 minutes to go and Indiana up 12. They then missed the front end of several one & ones and UNC cut it to two a few times. I always thought this was one of the bigger upsets in College Basketball.

    This was an article from the archives. https://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/23/s...a-in-east.html

    Couple of excerpts..

    Coach Terry Holland of Virginia said, ''Carolina is the finest team I have ever seen put together.''

    Indiana's victory so stunned Coach Dean Smith, the Tar Heel coach, that he uncharacteristically cut short his post-game news conference after talking for only a couple of minutes. Smith, who was expected to go on with this No. 1 team to win his second N.C.A.A. championship in his 23 seasons as Carolina coach, will have to settle for another of his many also- ran tournaments and another upset by Indiana.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hingeknocker View Post
    After the first episode, I definitely noticed the "Krause as villain" storyline that others have already mentioned. I'm a bit concerned that Krause (the dead guy) is being portrayed as the villain while Reinsdorf (the very much alive guy who was Krause's boss, remains an NBA owner to this day, and gave Krause the job in the first place just because Krause asked for it) gets to come across as an authority figure. Does not bode well for the fair telling of history that I'd expect from a documentary, especially one as hyped as this one.

    That said, the sniping comments from Bulls players about Krause were definitely eye-opening to me. There was clear acrimony there and Krause certainly deserves his share of the blame.
    Yeah, Reinsdorf is not a very popular guy among Bulls fans. It is widely believed - and there are quotes backing it up - that basketball is just business for him but baseball (White Sox) is his passion. So I don't doubt for a minute that Reinsdorf was at least in part behind the dismantling of the Bulls. Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson cost an exorbitant amount of money for that era - it wasn't for nearly two decades later that anyone matched Jordan's per-year salary in the last couple of years of his Bulls tenure, and Pippen was finally going to cost real money - and that made it difficult for the Bulls to remain profitable. Plus, Jordan was entering his decline phase, and his on-court value was going to fall below his salary quickly. I'm sure that played into the decisions. Well, that and that eventually people get tired of each other. Jackson, Pippen, and Jordan had been there for a decade (more in the cases of Jordan and Pippen) at that point.

    Though I am sure that Krause (who was a basketball scout to begin his career) didn't need much pushing; he was, after all, a scout first and foremost, and that was his passion. He contributed significantly in building that championship: identifying Jackson; drafting Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and Kukoc; acquiring Rodman for Will Perdue; signing Harper. I'm sure he was ready for his next challenge too, and I'm sure he was indeed very jealous of the credit that the players and especially Jackson (the guy he brought in to run the ship) got.

    But he's an easy patsy now that he's dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Just so we are all clear, Jordan had a fair bit of creative control over the project and it could not proceed without his agreement to release the footage. I'm not saying that making Krause the villain is unfair or inaccurate, but he would not be portrayed that way if Jordan had not approved of it.
    Also a very fair point. History is usually told through the eyes of the one telling the story. Jordan respected Reinsdorf and shares a solid relationship with him (especially now that they are colleagues) and revered Jackson; but he hated Krause. So I'm quite sure he's going to tell the story more favorably for him and Jackson and more negatively for Krause, especially since Krause can't defend himself now.

    The reality is probably that that group had MAYBE one more title in it. Maybe. But it was a team that was getting old and expensive and disinterested. Jordan was going to be 35 and had just made $63 million the prior 2 seasons and would likely ask for $35+ million to continue; Pippen was 33 and was finally going to command a salary more commensurate with his talent (he signed a bad long-term deal right before salaries started rising that ended after 1998); Rodman would be 37 and a free agent; Harper would be 35; Kukoc would be 30 and hadn't become the star that could carry the team into the next generation; even Jackson was a wayward spirit who wears organizations out over time, and was a free agent. And none of the younger players were good enough to make up for the declining stars. There just wasn't much shelf-life left in that team. So rather than let that group fade into expensive decline, the org ran it back one last time and said it was time to move on.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Really interesting first two episodes.

    Among those who recognized early just how great Jordan was?
    Bobby Knight, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird
    eh. it's a survivorship bias. How many players did they also think would be great but weren't and they don't even remember thinking it because that person faded into obscurity. Their thinking now is almost assuredly biased by the fact that he did become great.

    I could say I knew Duke would be great in 2010. But that doesn't mean much if I say we'll be great at the beginning of EVERY year.

    I'm sure the same kind of bias applies to some degree in their statements.
    It's being reported that due to coronavirus fears, Harvard has asked students not to return from spring break, and for classes to be held online.

    Not to be outdone, UNC told students to stop coming to class 27 years ago under Dean Smith.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    eh. it's a survivorship bias. How many players did they also think would be great but weren't and they don't even remember thinking it because that person faded into obscurity. Their thinking now is almost assuredly biased by the fact that he did become great.

    I could say I knew Duke would be great in 2010. But that doesn't mean much if I say we'll be great at the beginning of EVERY year.

    I'm sure the same kind of bias applies to some degree in their statements.
    To be fair, Bob Knight says during the 1984 Olympics that Jordan is the best player he has ever seen in his life.

    "Just an absolutely great kid. If I was going to pick the three or four best athletes I've ever seen play basketball, he'd be one of them. I think he's the best athlete I've ever seen play basketball, bar none. If I were going to pick people with the best ability I'd ever seen play the game, he'd be one. If I wanted to pick the best competitors I'd ever seen play, he'd be one of them. So in the categories of competitiveness and ability, skill and athletic ability, he's the best athlete. ... That, to me, makes him the best basketball player I've ever seen play."

    And Bird said the following after the epic 63 point game against the C's in Jordan's second year.

    "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us. He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

    I don't think Knight and Bird said those things about too many players.

    Magic, on the other hand, may have thought those things but he wouldn't give it up at the time. I don't think there's any record of him giving Jordan his propers until years later.

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