Mt. Rushmore?

[rtally]

Hi all,

The link to Jay Bilas's "Mt. Rushmore" (Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, and Laettner) got me thinking about All-Time Duke teams -- Mt. Rushmore be damned, there really should be five players, not four! -- and so I began trying to come up with my own list. For my "first team," I basically agree with Bilas, with Shane Battier added as the fifth player. But in making my lists, I couldn't help coming up with multiple "teams," winding up with six total. I wonder what other fans think?

So here are my "all-time Duke all-star teams." First, however, some caveats:

(a) I am only listing players I saw with my own eyes, which basically means no one older than the Class of '79 (i.e., Jim Spanarkel). Undoubtedly, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Dick Groat, Bob Verga, and Steve Vacendak, among others, belong on here, but they're not listed.

(b) I am basing this only on Duke careers, not on putative "talent" or later NBA careers, but that said, I'm also not relying just on college stats alone. It's a judgement call, particular as the game has changed a lot over 40 years, but I'm imagining who'd be best without necessarily relying on stats or awards (although these undoubtedly factor in a bit).

(c) I can't really pro-rate for the one-and-done era, which means one-year players are at a disadvantage because they didn't play long enough. Arguably the most talented guy to ever where a Duke jersey in this epoch is Kyrie Irving, but he's not making these teams based on the brevity of his 9-game career. Nevertheless, one-and-dones are in the mix; they're too damned good to leave out.

(d) A big one: Even though Coach K's motion offense tends toward "positionless" basketball, I've tried to organize these as good starting line-ups, thus following the arguably outdated model of 1-through-5 (i.e., PG, SG, SF, PF, and C), though some variations could be thrown in where its arguable that a player occupies multiple positions.

(e) Not so much a caveat as a confession. One thing I hate about "all-star" lists like this is that they ignore the role players and others who are so crucial to a team's success. As everyone knows, we don't win the 2015 championship without Grayson Allen, and we don't win in 2010 without Lance Thomas or Brian Zoubek; and some people forget that Billy McCaffrey made the 1991 All Tournament Team, along with Hurley and Laettner. Apologies to all the role players that this exercise inevitably omits.

1st Team: Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, Battier, Laettner.
2nd: Jason Williams, Redick, Ferry, Brand, Gminski.
3rd: Amaker, Scheyer, Singler, Williamson, Sheldon Williams.
4th: Duhon, Spanarkel, Banks, Boozer, Okafor.
5th: Nolan Smith, Dunleavy, Deng, Alarie, Bagley.
6th: Snyder, Langdon, Barrett, Parker, Mason Plumlee.

Anybody wildly out of place? Anybody I leave out? [I wanted to add Greg Paulus in there somewhere too, but we've got way too many good PGs in our history. I wanted to add Grayson Allen too, but I couldn't slot him in ahead of Langdon on the sixth team. Also, I left off a guy (Carrawell) who won ACC POY, not to mention arguably our best ever perimeter defended (Billy King), and another Defensive POY (Wojo). But I stand by my lists for now.]

I'd love to hear what others think.

p.s. Thinking of this made me feel a bit bad for guys Mark Alarie and Shelden Williams, who would've probably make conference POY in any other conference by their senior years, but spent all four years being the second best player (or worse!) on their own team. Another sign of how ridiculously great Duke's recruiting has been over the years.

[jv001]

Jayson Tatum?

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Hi all,

The link to Jay Bilas's "Mt. Rushmore" (Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, and Laettner) got me thinking about All-Time Duke teams -- Mt. Rushmore be damned, there really should be five players, not four! -- and so I began trying to come up with my own list. For my "first team," I basically agree with Bilas, with Shane Battier added as the fifth player. But in making my lists, I couldn't help coming up with multiple "teams," winding up with six total. I wonder what other fans think?

So here are my "all-time Duke all-star teams." First, however, some caveats:

(a) I am only listing players I saw with my own eyes, which basically means no one older than the Class of '79 (i.e., Jim Spanarkel). Undoubtedly, Art Heyman, Jeff Mullins, Dick Groat, Bob Verga, and Steve Vacendak, among others, belong on here, but they're not listed.

(b) I am basing this only on Duke careers, not on putative "talent" or later NBA careers, but that said, I'm also not relying just on college stats alone. It's a judgement call, particular as the game has changed a lot over 40 years, but I'm imagining who'd be best without necessarily relying on stats or awards (although these undoubtedly factor in a bit).

(c) I can't really pro-rate for the one-and-done era, which means one-year players are at a disadvantage because they didn't play long enough. Arguably the most talented guy to ever where a Duke jersey in this epoch is Kyrie Irving, but he's not making these teams based on the brevity of his 9-game career. Nevertheless, one-and-dones are in the mix; they're too damned good to leave out.

(d) A big one: Even though Coach K's motion offense tends toward "positionless" basketball, I've tried to organize these as good starting line-ups, thus following the arguably outdated model of 1-through-5 (i.e., PG, SG, SF, PF, and C), though some variations could be thrown in where its arguable that a player occupies multiple positions.

(e) Not so much a caveat as a confession. One thing I hate about "all-star" lists like this is that they ignore the role players and others who are so crucial to a team's success. As everyone knows, we don't win the 2015 championship without Grayson Allen, and we don't win in 2010 without Lance Thomas or Brian Zoubek; and some people forget that Billy McCaffrey made the 1991 All Tournament Team, along with Hurley and Laettner. Apologies to all the role players that this exercise inevitably omits.

1st Team: Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, Battier, Laettner.
2nd: Jason Williams, Redick, Ferry, Brand, Gminski.
3rd: Amaker, Scheyer, Singler, Williamson, Sheldon Williams.
4th: Duhon, Spanarkel, Banks, Boozer, Okafor.
5th: Nolan Smith, Dunleavy, Deng, Alarie, Bagley.
6th: Snyder, Langdon, Barrett, Parker, Mason Plumlee.

Anybody wildly out of place? Anybody I leave out? [I wanted to add Greg Paulus in there somewhere too, but we've got way too many good PGs in our history. I wanted to add Grayson Allen too, but I couldn't slot him in ahead of Langdon on the sixth team. Also, I left off a guy (Carrawell) who won ACC POY, not to mention arguably our best ever perimeter defended (Billy King), and another Defensive POY (Wojo). But I stand by my lists for now.]

I'd love to hear what others think.

p.s. Thinking of this made me feel a bit bad for guys Mark Alarie and Shelden Williams, who would've probably make conference POY in any other conference by their senior years, but spent all four years being the second best player (or worse!) on their own team. Another sign of how ridiculously great Duke's recruiting has been over the years.

We are truly blessed. Will offer thoughts later.

[kako]

H

1st Team: Hurley, Dawkins, Hill, Battier, Laettner.
2nd: Jason Williams, Redick, Ferry, Brand, Gminski.
3rd: Amaker, Scheyer, Singler, Williamson, Sheldon Williams.
4th: Duhon, Spanarkel, Banks, Boozer, Okafor.
5th: Nolan Smith, Dunleavy, Deng, Alarie, Bagley.
6th: Snyder, Langdon, Barrett, Parker, Mason Plumlee.

Seems like a fun idea.

I understand there's a given with your restrictions on pre-1979. If you take that out, then you probably lose about 5-9 spots.

Also, something to consider - if one equates a 1AD with a multiyear player, then it stands to reason to compare the 1AD season with the best season from the multiyear guy. My case in point would be Carrawell. He should be on the list over guys like Deng. He was ACC POY and a 1st team AA. You could even argue him over Dunleavy, Alarie and Barrett. His omission is glaring. If there was an all-time Duke team (12 spots), Chris Carrawell would be on mine. That guy was a Swiss army knife, the only ones better were perhaps GHill and Battier. With those long arms, Carrawell could even guard the post.

Other strong opinion - Quin Snyder is not the 6th best PG. I'd take either of the Jones brothers, Paulus, Bender, Avery, Curry, Wojo, Harrell or Capel before him. With all due respect, Snyder's not in the top 10. And I'd argue that Tyus Stones could be in over Nolan Smith, too.

Final strong opinion - Zion over Battier. And I love Battier. Zion over everybody except Laettner and GHill. Zion was what LeBron would have been in college.

A few other quibbles:

- Banks higher than Singler, any day of the week, though Kyle Gets Buckets is still on the list.
- You have Ferry, Brand and Gminski on the same team? Seems like 3 centers that you tried to fit into your top teams. They all belong, but... Mason Plumlee should be off the list as a center, and one those 3 should fill his spot in. And guys Carrawell and Tatum should be in as forwards. Deng would be out. I'd fit Carrawell and Tatum in, questioning Deng, Boozer and Alarie.
- I'd move Bagley up and Williams and Okafor down. Down but not out.


My top starting team with your restriction:

Hurley, Redick, GHill, Zion, Laettner (I really like this team. FTs shouldn't be an issue, though it was Zion's Achilles' Heel).

My top team without your restriction:

Hurley, Heyman, GHill, Zion, Laettner

9F

[Steven43]

One thing this all-time greats list points out — and I’ve thought about it many times over the years — was the incredibly good fortune of having Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, and Christian Laettner on the same team. And not just once, but TWICE.

[SamHouston]

An interesting name to ponder for this list.

[jv001]

Seems like a fun idea.

I understand there's a given with your restrictions on pre-1979. If you take that out, then you probably lose about 5-9 spots.

Also, something to consider - if one equates a 1AD with a multiyear player, then it stands to reason to compare the 1AD season with the best season from the multiyear guy. My case in point would be Carrawell. He should be on the list over guys like Deng. He was ACC POY and a 1st team AA. You could even argue him over Dunleavy, Alarie and Barrett. His omission is glaring. If there was an all-time Duke team (12 spots), Chris Carrawell would be on mine. That guy was a Swiss army knife, the only ones better were perhaps GHill and Battier. With those long arms, Carrawell could even guard the post.

Other strong opinion - Quin Snyder is not the 6th best PG. I'd take either of the Jones brothers, Paulus, Bender, Avery, Curry, Wojo, Harrell or Capel before him. With all due respect, Snyder's not in the top 10. And I'd argue that Tyus Stones could be in over Nolan Smith, too.

Final strong opinion - Zion over Battier. And I love Battier. Zion over everybody except Laettner and GHill. Zion was what LeBron would have been in college.

A few other quibbles:

- Banks higher than Singler, any day of the week, though Kyle Gets Buckets is still on the list.
- You have Ferry, Brand and Gminski on the same team? Seems like 3 centers that you tried to fit into your top teams. They all belong, but... Mason Plumlee should be off the list as a center, and one those 3 should fill his spot in. And guys Carrawell and Tatum should be in as forwards. Deng would be out. I'd fit Carrawell and Tatum in, questioning Deng, Boozer and Alarie.
- I'd move Bagley up and Williams and Okafor down. Down but not out.


My top starting team with your restriction:

Hurley, Redick, GHill, Zion, Laettner (I really like this team. FTs shouldn't be an issue, though it was Zion's Achilles' Heel).

My top team without your restriction:

Hurley, Heyman, GHill, Zion, Laettner

9F

Bob Verga, Randy Denton, Jack Marin, Jeff Mullins to just name of a few of great Duke players. Marin was a great college player that had an 11 year NBA career. Jack as a sophomore came off the bench and averaged 15 points per game. He had even better junior and senior years. His Duke teams had a 72-14 record and finished first all three years. He was a pure shooter and in my mind, a player for all decades. Duke fans that liked Kennard, would have loved Jack.

GoDuke!

[Wander]

In 10 years, it's going to be extremely obvious who the best basketball player to ever play at Duke was, and that there's a large gap between him and the second best. If OADs count and it's not strictly about college stats, he should be on the first team.

[Phredd3]

My top team without your restriction:

Hurley, Heyman, GHill, Zion, Laettner

I have one quibble with your quibbles. Without the time restriction:

Groat, Heyman, GHill, Zion, Laettner

With apologies to Bobby Hurley, and as someone who never saw him play, IMO Groat was better. It's hard to compare stats separated by forty years, but Groat scored five more per game, rebounded at something like 3x Hurley's rate, and still very nearly matched Hurley's assist rate. Groat was NPOY in 1952 (UPI, as the Naismith award wouldn't be invented for another 17 years). His was the first Duke jersey retired and the only Duke jersey retired for nearly thirty years, including the era in which Heyman played. Oh, and he dropped 48 on the team down the road, still an all-time record.

Easy to forget him, since his pro career was focused on baseball, but he was one heck of a player.

[DU82]

For the time period the OP mentioned, I’d add Vince Taylor, Cherokee Parks and Chris Carrawell.

[Teacherjrob]

For the time period the OP mentioned, I’d add Vince Taylor, Cherokee Parks and Chris Carrawell.

Greetings, All!
An impossible task to choose the greatest all-star Duke teams. Different eras, different positions, different rules...but I will weigh in with something different and entirely personal, and that's a list of my favorite Duke players over the 50 years I can celebrate watching the Devils closely. Not picked by position, just my favorites, chronological
and not in any order of preference:
Johnny Dawkins, Thomas Hill, Shane Battier, Nolan Smith, and Tyus Stones.
It may be the personality along with the prowess, but those are my guys!

[Steven43]

Greetings, All!
An impossible task to choose the greatest all-star Duke teams. Different eras, different positions, different rules...but I will weigh in with something different and entirely personal, and that's a list of my favorite Duke players over the 50 years I can celebrate watching the Devils closely. Not picked by position, just my favorites, chronological
and not in any order of preference:
Johnny Dawkins, Thomas Hill, Shane Battier, Nolan Smith, and Tyus Stones.
It may be the personality along with the prowess, but those are my guys!

For Zion Williamson not to make an all-time Duke list where the main attributes are personality and prowess, well, I don’t know what to say.

[MartinNessley]

Coach K Era

1rst Team
Bobby Hurley
Jason Williams
Grant Hill
Zion
Laettner

2nd Team
Johnny Dawkins
JJ Reddick
Kyle Singler
Shane Battier
Elton Brand

3rd Team
Tyus Jones
Nolan Smith
Justice Winslow
Danny Ferry
Sheldon Williams

[kako]

I have one quibble with your quibbles. Without the time restriction:

Groat, Heyman, GHill, Zion, Laettner

With apologies to Bobby Hurley, and as someone who never saw him play, IMO Groat was better. It's hard to compare stats separated by forty years, but Groat scored five more per game, rebounded at something like 3x Hurley's rate, and still very nearly matched Hurley's assist rate. Groat was NPOY in 1952 (UPI, as the Naismith award wouldn't be invented for another 17 years). His was the first Duke jersey retired and the only Duke jersey retired for nearly thirty years, including the era in which Heyman played. Oh, and he dropped 48 on the team down the road, still an all-time record.

Easy to forget him, since his pro career was focused on baseball, but he was one heck of a player.

I won't argue with you. I recognize Groat's greatness. Heyman was well before my time, but there's video on him. I've never seen any video footage of Groat playing. Is there any? I just scanned YouTube and could find nothing.

9F

[kako]

In 10 years, it's going to be extremely obvious who the best basketball player to ever play at Duke was, and that there's a large gap between him and the second best. If OADs count and it's not strictly about college stats, he should be on the first team.

If Zion continues his performance in the NBA, and wins championships, then yes. Greatest player to ever come out of Duke. Right now, that's proooobably Irving per the OP's timetable, though an argument could be made for GHill. Again, IMO one must consider championships (and thus GHill may fall short).

I just hope Zion takes care of his monster body. I wonder if it can hold up. Hopefully he's spending big bucks on training, nutrition, etc.

9F

[J4Kop99]

Not to be that guy but...

JJ Redick (1 "d")
and
Shelden Williams ("en" not "on")

Hurley/J williams
Dawkins/Redick
Hill/Winslow
Battier/Zion
Laettner/Brand

Not sure which team would win.

[Phredd3]

I've never seen any video footage of Groat playing. Is there any? I just scanned YouTube and could find nothing.

I haven't found any. Just many articles about Groat and his career. Not a lot of college basketball was filmed in the '50s. Heck, they barely filmed the pros back then.

[Teacherjrob]

For Zion Williamson not to make an all-time Duke list where the main attributes are personality and prowess, well, I don’t know what to say.

Steven 43, I said MY favorites, no disrespect to Zion's personality and prowess. Plenty to love about Zion, but one year isn't long. Why Tyus Jones, who also turned pro in one year? The one-man comeback against Carolina and the National Championship figure pretty high. My other four--Dawkins, Hill, Battier, and Smith--were all there four years and provided plenty of moments to hold them high.

[jv001]

Steven 43, I said MY favorites, no disrespect to Zion's personality and prowess. Plenty to love about Zion, but one year isn't long. Why Tyus Jones, who also turned pro in one year? The one-man comeback against Carolina and the National Championship figure pretty high. My other four--Dawkins, Hill, Battier, and Smith--were all there four years and provided plenty of moments to hold them high.

You never saw Christian Laettner play? I also loved his toughness and the way he hated to lose.

GoDuke!

[Steven43]

You never saw Christian Laettner play? I also loved his toughness and the way he hated to lose.

GoDuke!

Agreed. Christian Laettner was the baddest of the bada**es. He's my first overall pick if I'm choosing an all-time Duke team.