Tapé replay - Patrick recommits to Duke!!

[Jaymf7]

I mean, I think the point is that we don't know that.

You can check previous classes in the 247 Composite.

In 2019, the #11 ranked guy was Kahlil Whitney.
In 2018, Simi Shittu.
In 2017, Kevin Knox.
In 2016, Malik Monk
In 2015, Stephen Zimmerman

Too lazy to check further, but that's a 20% hit rate for stud/elite. (I suspect if I checked further, the percentage would dip).

That's why Jalen's ranking matters. (To the extent that anything sports-related matters in the grand scheme of things).

Weren't 2 of those guys (Knox and Monk) lottery picks? The 20% may be off. I'd also prefer to compare to Duke guys ranked in top 15. More apples to apples to see how we have evaluated the talent.

[BD80]

Shirelles-y you jest. I'll be Frankie with you, this is not one of those Four Seasons in which we should be arguing this.

Frankie-Lee, this is a perfect time to Cher such a discussion, regardless of how Smokey or Dusty it gets.


If you like Carole King's version, you night give Laura Nyro a listen, one of my favorites. In this century, Leslie Grace did a bachata version that I really like.

[duke79]

So many versions of this one. Which one is King?

I'm a HUGE Dave Mason fan! Thanks for posting.

[Lurkingdukedog]

Frankie-Lee, this is a perfect time to Cher such a discussion, regardless of how Smokey or Dusty it gets.


If you like Carole King's version, you night give Laura Nyro a listen, one of my favorites. In this century, Leslie Grace did a bachata version that I really like.

Personally, I have to go with Carole (with James backing up vocals) on the Tapestry album

[Troublemaker]

What am I missing? Weren't 2 of those guys (Knox and Monk) lottery picks? The 20% may be off. I'd also prefer to compare to Duke guys ranked in top 15. More apples to apples to see how we have evaluated the talent.

Only Monk was an All-American. Some of our disagreement may be semantical, as is typical for DBR. When I read that someone is a "stud" or "elite," I think All-American, not merely a good player. I'm fairly comfortable that Jalen will be "good."

[devildeac]

Frankie-Lee, this is a perfect time to Cher such a discussion, regardless of how Smokey or Dusty it gets.


If you like Carole King's version, you night give Laura Nyro a listen, one of my favorites. In this century, Leslie Grace did a bachata version that I really like.

This is indeed excellent and I've danced to that many times. Different song but same era: Stand By Me cover by Prince Royale.

[Jaymf7]

Only Monk was an All-American. Some of our disagreement may be semantical, as is typical for DBR. When I read that someone is a "stud" or "elite," I think All-American, not merely a good player. I'm fairly comfortable that Jalen will be "good."

Knox had about 16 pts a game on decent shooting and lead KY in scoring as a freshman (with numerous other NBA guys on the team). 20% or 40% hit rate isn't really the point though. I took a quick look back at Duke's 5 star recruits (some of which were ranked well below top 11 or 15) over the last decade and nearly all have been hits. The only ones (hold off on Hurt and Moore for now) not getting decent NBA time are likely Jeter and Thornton from 2015, Bolden from 2016 and Sulaimon from 2012. Just about everyone else could be considered a stud (certainly at the college level). I have more faith in a top 15 recruiting rating at Duke than many other schools. By and large, I think we vet the highly rated guys to make sure they have what it takes to succeed beyond high school.

[budwom]

Perhaps, but based on the info we have, that's not what he is at all. He should be a way better offensive player than Javin and a way worse defensive player. Stats aside, from the video people have shared he doesn't seem anywhere close to the run/jump athlete Javin is, and appears to have much slower feet on defense.

I'm not saying Patrick can't contribute -- I think he can. But if our primary need from him is defense and rebounding, we may be disappointed.



I hope you're right (although remember, K and his staff presumably watched a lot of film on Sean Obi as well and presumably came to a similar conclusion; and Obi was a MUCH better rebounder at Rice than Tape was at Columbia). It may be they think Patrick has enough potential that with the proper coaching he can become an all-around contributor. But even then, "an acceptable level" is a lot different than his primary purpose being defense and rebounding. Obviously, it's impossible to know how well low-level Ivy will translate to high-level ACC.

I'm not arguing anything in the absolute; just saying the odds that he's a stud defender and/or rebounder are not very high.

Alas, you are quite clearly putting words in my mouth when you say he's not a stud defender or rebounder. No one has asserted that he is. I think I used the word "capable." I'd settle for that.

[jimsumner]

Brandon Ingram was second-team All-ACC in 2016. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC in 2017. Neither sniffed an All-America team. Neither was the best player on their team.

Were they studs?

How many studs can one team have? How many studs can one conference have? How many studs can dance on the head of a pin?

I strongly suspect Jalen Johnson will be as good in his one year at Duke as Ingram and Tatum were in their one year at Duke.

Whatever that means.

[Kedsy]

Alas, you are quite clearly putting words in my mouth when you say he's not a stud defender or rebounder. No one has asserted that he is. I think I used the word "capable." I'd settle for that.

You said "acceptable." I quoted you in my post. But my point is, if the main goal we're expecting from the guy is defense and rebounding, he ought to be good (I apologize that I said "stud," rather than "good") at defense and rebounding, rather than merely "acceptable."

[budwom]

by the way, comparisons to Obi aren't particularly valid unless Tape has knees like Obi, which I trust he doesn't.

[Kedsy]

by the way, comparisons to Obi aren't particularly valid unless Tape has knees like Obi, which I trust he doesn't.

Well, they might be if we're talking about staff knowledge and due diligence. Maybe Obi's knee problems began in the summer between his time at Rice and his arrival in Durham, but it seems unlikely.

[Troublemaker]

Knox had about 16 pts a game on decent shooting and lead KY in scoring as a freshman (with numerous other NBA guys on the team). 20% or 40% hit rate isn't really the point though. I took a quick look back at Duke's 5 star recruits (some of which were ranked well below top 11 or 15) over the last decade and nearly all have been hits. The only ones (hold off on Hurt and Moore for now) not getting decent NBA time are likely Jeter and Thornton from 2015, Bolden from 2016 and Sulaimon from 2012. Just about everyone else could be considered a stud (certainly at the college level). I have more faith in a top 15 recruiting rating at Duke than many other schools. By and large, I think we vet the highly rated guys to make sure they have what it takes to succeed beyond high school.

So, yeah, you have to differentiate between top-5 and guys ranked 10 to 15. That's really the whole point of this strand of conversation. Almost everyone is comfortable that a top-5 Duke recruit is going to be a stud as a freshman. There's an extensive history there. But once you move down the rankings, it's much more hit-and-miss (as one might expect). The guys you mentioned as misses were all ranked in the 10 to 15 area, per 247.

Let's bottom-line this. "Will Jalen Johnson perform at an All-American level his freshman year before (presumably) leaving for the NBA?" (This is what matters most to Duke fans, imo, not how well they perform in the NBA). If Jalen's final ranking is between 10 and 15 as it is now, I believe the answer is "No." Your mileage may vary.

[Jaks19]

Back to Tapé...

Not that the Ivy League can measure up the talent that the ACC has, but at the end of his JR year, during conference tournament time, Tapé was scoring 16-19 ppgs when the games meant the most for his team. Again, he might not be that defensive stopper when he is in the game or used to being against good bigs game in and game out, but at least he is a capable scorer around the basket which is good for Duke. My all accounts, Mark Williams will be far more advanced in his game defensively than offensively so the contrast between the players should be able to add to Duke.

[Troublemaker]

Brandon Ingram was second-team All-ACC in 2016. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC in 2017. Neither sniffed an All-America team. Neither was the best player on their team.

Were they studs?

How many studs can one team have? How many studs can one conference have? How many studs can dance on the head of a pin?

Did you know that of Duke's 16 Final Four teams, 14 of them had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it. In the K era, 11 of 12 Final Four teams had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it.

Why are we pretending this stuff doesn't matter at all?

I strongly suspect Jalen Johnson will be as good in his one year at Duke as Ingram and Tatum were in their one year at Duke.

FWIW, I strongly suspect you are wrong and am willing to bet it. (Of course, coming up with the terms of the bet might be difficult).

[SlapTheFloor]

Did you know that of Duke's 16 Final Four teams, 14 of them had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it. In the K era, 11 of 12 Final Four teams had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it.

Why are we pretending this stuff doesn't matter at all?



FWIW, I strongly suspect you are wrong and am willing to bet it. (Of course, coming up with the terms of the bet might be difficult).

Ingram was second team All-ACC and Tatum was third team. I guess to win the bet, Jalen would have to be named at least second team All-ACC?

[DukieInBrasil]

Only Monk was an All-American. Some of our disagreement may be semantical, as is typical for DBR. When I read that someone is a "stud" or "elite," I think All-American, not merely a good player. I'm fairly comfortable that Jalen will be "good."

Since the ACC is usually the best, or among the best, conferences in the country, I think stud should be expanded to also include All-ACC performers.

Brandon Ingram was second-team All-ACC in 2016. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC in 2017. Neither sniffed an All-America team. Neither was the best player on their team.
Were they studs?
How many studs can one team have? How many studs can one conference have? How many studs can dance on the head of a pin?
I strongly suspect Jalen Johnson will be as good in his one year at Duke as Ingram and Tatum were in their one year at Duke.
Whatever that means.

Jim beat me to it. I'd say both Jayson and Brandon were studs, b/c they could both absolutely take over on offense at times, were at least passable of defense, and were versatile enough that they contributed in multiple ways.

by the way, comparisons to Obi aren't particularly valid unless Tape has knees like Obi, which I trust he doesn't.

I hope Duke has done its due diligence, but Tapé did sit out last year with an injury, which afaik hasn't been disclosed, so he may/not have issues.

[MartyClark]

Brandon Ingram was second-team All-ACC in 2016. Jayson Tatum was third-team All-ACC in 2017. Neither sniffed an All-America team. Neither was the best player on their team.

Were they studs?

How many studs can one team have? How many studs can one conference have? How many studs can dance on the head of a pin?

I strongly suspect Jalen Johnson will be as good in his one year at Duke as Ingram and Tatum were in their one year at Duke.

Whatever that means.

Staying out of the larger discussion, YES , Ingram and Tatum were studs.

[azzefkram]

I hope Duke has done its due diligence, but Tapé did sit out last year with an injury, which afaik hasn't been disclosed, so he may/not have issues.

I think it was a foot/toe injury which may have been good to go for the second half of the season so I expect he'll be good for next year.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Did you know that of Duke's 16 Final Four teams, 14 of them had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it. In the K era, 11 of 12 Final Four teams had at least a 3rd-team All-American on it.

Why are we pretending this stuff doesn't matter at all?

Look at the superlative, All-America talent on the Duke teams of 2018 and 2019. Those teams didn't make the Final Four. All-America players are recognized for individual talent and achievement. What matters a lot more to me is having Duke win team championships, whether or not the individual players are named All-America.