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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    This is disappointing. I’ve been a fan of his and was hoping he would breakout. Here’s wishing Alex “Fair winds and following seas.”
    Ah me, too. I was always pulling for him.
    Nothing incites bodily violence quicker than a Duke fan turning in your direction and saying 'scoreboard.'

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    No, I merely intimated that perhaps it should be a factor, but not necessarily the deciding factor.
    And I said "a metric" not the only or most important metric.

    Who are we to say that playing a key role in a key game in a mid-major conference isn't of more consequence than sitting on the bench or playing sparingly in an ACC game?

    Almost every player who left Duke left for a program in a lower-profile program and/or conference because they wanted to play more. They were never likely to play in as many nationally-televised games or "games of real consequence" as they would have at Duke. Some transferred to play closer to home. Lots of reasons. But they all had their chances at Duke and the spotlight and for whatever reason decided that moving on was a trade-off worth making.

    And it seemed to work out well for them.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Who are we to say that playing a key role in a key game in a mid-major conference isn't of more consequence than sitting on the bench or playing sparingly in an ACC game?
    Thornton — and remember we are specifically discussing only Thornton — played “sparingly” at Duke? That’s not how I would characterize it.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Thornton — and remember we are specifically discussing only Thornton — played “sparingly” at Duke? That’s not how I would characterize it.
    Perhaps not sparingly in minutes played but sparingly in the way he wanted to play, as cited as a reason to transfer.

    -jk

  5. #65
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    It may be worth stating that, in most cases, players become better, stronger, more savvy, and better able to handle the ups and downs of all aspects of life in college as they mature. Add in that most transfers choose a place that has a need at their position, and it would only be surprising if they didn't have more individual success.

    Staying at Duke would still leave them better players as they mature, of course.
    Man, if your Mom made you wear that color when you were a baby, and you're still wearing it, it's time to grow up!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrinalCake View Post
    UNC has made the same decision and abandoned their grading system. All of their classes are now Pass/Pass.
    Zing! "You must spread some comments around, etc., etc."

    Quote Originally Posted by Heaven's Guardian View Post
    I feel like players with his personality tend not to do reach their potential at Duke. He always came across as someone with talent who needed trust, support, and regular playing time to reach his potential. K is a military man first, and I don't think it's surprising that players who respond better to being challenged end up having more success, whereas players like Alex, Marques, Chase, and many others who withdraw a bit when they get benched and criticized end up glued to the bench. When we consider that we always have enough talent that K doesn't have to play guys through their struggles, it's pretty close to a guarantee that anyone who isn't an elite prospect probably shouldn't play for him if they don't have the personality he does well with.
    This is an interesting point. Hard to fully evaluate specific player situations as an outsider--but you are right that some players who look like they have lots of potential seem to fade into the woodwork at Duke while others (say, Jordan Goldwire or Tyler Thornton) grow into valuable contributors despite lower rankings coming in because they are given opportunities and respond well to the pressure--and keep working and contributing no matter what (like, say, Justin Robinson, who should have had an opportunity to contribute in the ACC and NCAA tournaments, sigh...). Not unreasonable to assume that sometimes the type of coaching a player needs to excel is not the type a particular coach is best prepared to give (nor, when you have as many top recruits as Duke, the type he has time to give).

    Quote Originally Posted by Furniture View Post
    My eye test tells me that even if you are a role player at Duke you have a better chance in the NBA finishing at Duke vs. transferring.
    Well, maybe--Duke produces some smart, coachable players who are willing to do what coaches want/need them to do. But it's kind of impossible to really evaluate this claim, because each individual situation is so different--what was expected of the player before transfer? Why did they transfer? What happened afterwards? Did any of the players who stayed consider transferring?

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Taylor King. Just because.

    And Thornton did average 12.7 ppg and 3.2 apg this year for a Power-Six team.

    I'm sure I forgot someone. I forgot Obi. But I'm not sure anyone would characterize his tenure at Maryland as making it. He averaged six minutes per game in 21 games. His knees really were shot.
    I still feel bad about Thornton--he showed some real promise, some of which he was finally able to develop at BC this year. And he seemed to like Duke personally, but I gather the family did not like the way he was used in the offense. I wonder if he might have added something important to the 2016-17 team--which, if I recall correctly (admittedly not a certainty), relied on Matt Jones for a lot of the point guard role. Oddly, Thornton does not appear when you look up the 2015-16 roster on GoDuke.com, which I assume is just an error but is a bit disturbing.

    As for Obi, easy to forget from a playing standpoint, as apparently he really did not have the knees for basketball. But he seemed like a great kid, and I hope he enjoyed his year at Maryland. I still remember the bespoke outfits he wore to all of the games in Dukes 2015 championship run, and the terrific bench cheerleader he was.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Thornton — and remember we are specifically discussing only Thornton — played “sparingly” at Duke? That’s not how I would characterize it.
    We aren't specifically discussing only Thornton. The question was asked how many of these transfers were successful. I responded with a list of successful transfers and you suggested that playing on national TV or in high-profile games was a portion of measuring success.

    These guys played on national TV, played on successful teams, played in high-profile games at Duke. None of them thought those reasons were sufficient for them to continue at Duke and I see no reason to consider that as a variable in determining post-Duke success.

    I get it. We all wish we were 20 years old and playing for Duke and can't imagine why anyone would give that up. But if a player leaves Duke in search of more playing time or a more enhanced role and earns more playing time and a more enhanced role, then why is it so hard to accept that that move was a success?

    Thanks for your contributions, best luck in the future, next page.

    As always, YMMV.
    Last edited by jimsumner; 03-22-2020 at 06:18 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    We aren't specifically discussing only Thornton.
    While you may have brought up any number of former players who transferred from Duke in your various posts, the ONLY player I ever indicated any interest in discussing with you is Derryck Thornton. That’s a fact.

    And the only point I have been trying to make is that it is debatable as to whether Thornton achieved more success after leaving Duke than he had while at Duke. You are certain Thornton achieved greater success after transferring, while I am far less certain. There’s nothing more to it than that, really.

    Regardless, I look forward to continuing to read your posts because they are quite often informative and/or interesting.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    While you may have brought up any number of former players who transferred from Duke in your various posts, the ONLY player I ever indicated any interest in discussing with you is Derryck Thornton. That’s a fact.

    And the only point I have been trying to make is that it is debatable as to whether Thornton achieved more success after leaving Duke than he had while at Duke. You are certain Thornton achieved greater success after transferring, while I am far less certain. There’s nothing more to it than that, really.

    Regardless, I look forward to continuing to read your posts because they are quite often informative and/or interesting.
    I assumed " I think these things matter to the overall picture when assessing “success” applied to more than one player. If not, then I apologize for the confusion.

    But it seems like we--the board-not you, go through this every time a Duke player transfers. Duke isn't for everyone, everyone isn't for Duke and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.

  10. #70
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    Everyone runs their own race. Duke does not always factor into their entire race. Transfers happen.

    Alex has been extremely gracious towards us. I hope he shines wherever he lands, but am thankful for his efforts regardless.

    Next play for him, next play for us.
    "We're only tourists in this life
    Only tourists but the view is nice"

    -- David Byrne

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Greg Wendt, Bill Jackman, Crawford Palmer, Billy McCaffrey, Christian Ast, Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Andre Sweet, Michael Thompson, Jamal Boykin, Eric Boateng, Elliott Williams, Olek Czyz, Michael Gbinije, Alex Murphy, Semi Ojeleye, Derryck Thornton, Chase Jeter and Jordan Tucker all had more individual success after transferring from Duke than they did at Duke, which I assume is a significant reason for O'Connell's departure.

    Mike Chappell won an NCAA title at Michigan State.

    And that's only the K-era transfers
    Perhaps, but I would say the subsequent career of most those guys validated their roles at Duke. Semi would seem the strongest case of I wish we’d played him more. McCaffrey was great at Vandy, but he was a double digit scorer for a national champion at Duke. It’s not that we didn’t play him; he just wanted to be a point guard, and that wasn’t going to happen with Hurley. Elliott Williams certainly became more of a scorer, and perhaps he should have played more early as a freshman, but he was starting for Duke by the end of the year. Gbininje was very good as a 5th year senior but score just 3 ppg in what would have been his junior year. Chappell was a contributor but never became the star some envisioned at Michigan State either. Thornton’s best year was his freshman year at Duke until this year as a 5th year senior for a bad team. Most of the guys became contributors, but not stars, for much lesser teams and never would have been difference-makers for Duke.

    I wish the best for O’Connell. He was very nice to my nephew in Coach K camp the past 2 years. He had plenty of chances this year, though. Unfortunately, he seemed to have lost confidence in his shot.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    Perhaps, but I would say the subsequent career of most those guys validated their roles at Duke. Semi would seem the strongest case of I wish we’d played him more. McCaffrey was great at Vandy, but he was a double digit scorer for a national champion at Duke. It’s not that we didn’t play him; he just wanted to be a point guard, and that wasn’t going to happen with Hurley. Elliott Williams certainly became more of a scorer, and perhaps he should have played more early as a freshman, but he was starting for Duke by the end of the year. Gbininje was very good as a 5th year senior but score just 3 ppg in what would have been his junior year. Chappell was a contributor but never became the star some envisioned at Michigan State either. Thornton’s best year was his freshman year at Duke until this year as a 5th year senior for a bad team. Most of the guys became contributors, but not stars, for much lesser teams and never would have been difference-makers for Duke.

    I wish the best for O’Connell. He was very nice to my nephew in Coach K camp the past 2 years. He had plenty of chances this year, though. Unfortunately, he seemed to have lost confidence in his shot.
    Which suggests that transferring was the right decision for them and that they were successful at their subsequent schools.

    Seems like we are in agreement.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    Perhaps, but I would say the subsequent career of most those guys validated their roles at Duke. Semi would seem the strongest case of I wish we’d played him more. McCaffrey was great at Vandy, but he was a double digit scorer for a national champion at Duke. It’s not that we didn’t play him; he just wanted to be a point guard, and that wasn’t going to happen with Hurley. Elliott Williams certainly became more of a scorer, and perhaps he should have played more early as a freshman, but he was starting for Duke by the end of the year. Gbininje was very good as a 5th year senior but score just 3 ppg in what would have been his junior year. Chappell was a contributor but never became the star some envisioned at Michigan State either. Thornton’s best year was his freshman year at Duke until this year as a 5th year senior for a bad team. Most of the guys became contributors, but not stars, for much lesser teams and never would have been difference-makers for Duke.

    I wish the best for O’Connell. He was very nice to my nephew in Coach K camp the past 2 years. He had plenty of chances this year, though. Unfortunately, he seemed to have lost confidence in his shot.
    IMHO, there are back stories to all of these players:

    McCaffrey wasn't going anywhere until the national media started giving unasked for advice -- I'm looking at you, Dickie V. He would have been better staying at Duke -- better team, better coaching, not as many personal honors, but better prep for the NBA.

    Elliott Williams is a mystery -- I expect there are personal and family reasons (though not the one given publicly).

    Gbinije didn't have the patience to stay around. I mean, he sat out a year, then came off the bench the next year. He started at syracuse in his fourth year after graduating HS. I don't say he would have started for Duke in 2015, but he would have had increasing PT for four straight years.

    Semi Ojeleye admits he didn't have the maturity to realize he needed to improve his skills from his HS days in Kansas, and Duke was bringing him along just about right. He should have stayed at Duke -- but that's what the teen-age years involve.

    Derryck Thornton wanted to stay, I hear, but family pressures forced him to transfer because -- wait for it! -- he wasn't the featured player in the offense as a freshman at Duke. He did play, however, 26 MPG and started 20 games out of 36. How did that transfer work out, Dad and Uncle?

    Mike Chappell was a long time ago. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't. Must have been some personal reasons.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Duke79UNLV77 View Post
    Perhaps, but I would say the subsequent career of most those guys validated their roles at Duke. Semi would seem the strongest case of I wish we’d played him more. McCaffrey was great at Vandy, but he was a double digit scorer for a national champion at Duke. It’s not that we didn’t play him; he just wanted to be a point guard, and that wasn’t going to happen with Hurley. Elliott Williams certainly became more of a scorer, and perhaps he should have played more early as a freshman, but he was starting for Duke by the end of the year. Gbininje was very good as a 5th year senior but score just 3 ppg in what would have been his junior year. Chappell was a contributor but never became the star some envisioned at Michigan State either. Thornton’s best year was his freshman year at Duke until this year as a 5th year senior for a bad team. Most of the guys became contributors, but not stars, for much lesser teams and never would have been difference-makers for Duke.

    I wish the best for O’Connell. He was very nice to my nephew in Coach K camp the past 2 years. He had plenty of chances this year, though. Unfortunately, he seemed to have lost confidence in his shot.
    Ted Williams said the most difficult thing in sports was to hit a great fastball (or was it a great curveball.) Many superb athletes since his time -though none greater in my mind, and I saw him play many times - but hitting deep 3s takes great skill.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53n206 View Post
    Ted Williams said the most difficult thing in sports was to hit a great fastball (or was it a great curveball.) Many superb athletes since his time -though none greater in my mind, and I saw him play many times - but hitting deep 3s takes great skill.
    Wait just a minute now. You saw the great Ted Williams play??? In person? He last played in 1960. If you really got to see Ted Williams play baseball, you are incredibly fortunate.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Greg Wendt, Bill Jackman, Crawford Palmer, Billy McCaffrey, Christian Ast, Joey Beard, Chris Burgess, Andre Sweet, Michael Thompson, Jamal Boykin, Eric Boateng, Elliott Williams, Olek Czyz, Michael Gbinije, Alex Murphy, Semi Ojeleye, Derryck Thornton, Chase Jeter and Jordan Tucker all had more individual success after transferring from Duke than they did at Duke, which I assume is a significant reason for O'Connell's departure.

    Mike Chappell won an NCAA title at Michigan State.

    And that's only the K-era transfers
    Interesting that a few from this list made the list of players on the Building The Brotherhood page in the booklet that season tickets come in.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    IMHO, there are back stories to all of these players:

    McCaffrey wasn't going anywhere until the national media started giving unasked for advice -- I'm looking at you, Dickie V. He would have been better staying at Duke -- better team, better coaching, not as many personal honors, but better prep for the NBA.

    Elliott Williams is a mystery -- I expect there are personal and family reasons (though not the one given publicly).

    Gbinije didn't have the patience to stay around. I mean, he sat out a year, then came off the bench the next year. He started at syracuse in his fourth year after graduating HS. I don't say he would have started for Duke in 2015, but he would have had increasing PT for four straight years.

    Semi Ojeleye admits he didn't have the maturity to realize he needed to improve his skills from his HS days in Kansas, and Duke was bringing him along just about right. He should have stayed at Duke -- but that's what the teen-age years involve.

    Derryck Thornton wanted to stay, I hear, but family pressures forced him to transfer because -- wait for it! -- he wasn't the featured player in the offense as a freshman at Duke. He did play, however, 26 MPG and started 20 games out of 36. How did that transfer work out, Dad and Uncle?

    Mike Chappell was a long time ago. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't. Must have been some personal reasons.
    The biggest impetus to McCaffrey leaving was his brother Ed's going in the third round of the 1991 NFL draft. Being drafted became very important to he and his family. But it was more than that. My understanding is that K offered him a chance to redshirt and thus be the post-Hurley point guard in 1994. But Grant Hill would still have been around and McCaffrey wanted to be THE MAN, which wasn't going to happen with Grant on the roster. Imagine that team with McCaffrey as a fifth-year senior.

    Williams also wanted to be THE MAN. But his mother really was terminally ill. She died a few years after. Hard to find an argument against going home to be with a terminally ill parent.

    Agree on Gbinijie and Ojeleye, although Duke would almost certainly not pursued Rodney Hood had Gbinijie not freed up a position. Was one year of Hood worth three more years of Gbinijie? Would a senior Gbinijie have caused Winslow to look elsewhere?

    Mike Chappell lost his starting job to Chris Carrawell midway through the 1998 season and gradually dropped out of the rotation. Nate James was a medical redshirt in 1998 and he was coming back in 1999. Corey Maggette was coming in that same year. Chappell was a major talent with a passive personality and wasn't inclined to fight for PT at Duke. Like an awful lot of transfers he ended up playing much closer to home but never really improved as a Spartan. Just not in his DNA, I suspect. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Wait just a minute now. You saw the great Ted Williams play??? In person? He last played in 1960. If you really got to see Ted Williams play baseball, you are incredibly fortunate.
    I got to see him at the first game I ever attended, in 1954, my father must have told me 10 times that day to remember that I saw Ted Williams play. I do recall him, Jackie Jensen hit a home run, but the play I'll never forget was
    Phil Rizzutto getting hit in the head with a fast ball, WITHOUT the benefit of a batting helmet. Sounded like the ball hitting a melon, THWAP. He was completely unconscious, they carted him off, and I remember thinking, hm, this is a tough game.

    speaking of transferring Duke guys, I noted today that Alex Murphy (he of Duke to Florida to Northeastern) has a brother who is transferring from Northeastern to Vermont, those boys have the transfer DNA.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    IMHO, there are back stories to all of these players:

    McCaffrey wasn't going anywhere until the national media started giving unasked for advice -- I'm looking at you, Dickie V. He would have been better staying at Duke -- better team, better coaching, not as many personal honors, but better prep for the NBA.

    Elliott Williams is a mystery -- I expect there are personal and family reasons (though not the one given publicly).

    Gbinije didn't have the patience to stay around. I mean, he sat out a year, then came off the bench the next year. He started at syracuse in his fourth year after graduating HS. I don't say he would have started for Duke in 2015, but he would have had increasing PT for four straight years.

    Semi Ojeleye admits he didn't have the maturity to realize he needed to improve his skills from his HS days in Kansas, and Duke was bringing him along just about right. He should have stayed at Duke -- but that's what the teen-age years involve.

    Derryck Thornton wanted to stay, I hear, but family pressures forced him to transfer because -- wait for it! -- he wasn't the featured player in the offense as a freshman at Duke. He did play, however, 26 MPG and started 20 games out of 36. How did that transfer work out, Dad and Uncle?

    Mike Chappell was a long time ago. I didn't understand it at the time, and I still don't. Must have been some personal reasons.
    McCaffrey wanted to move to point, for NBA prospects. He was not playing point ahead of Bobby.

  20. #80
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    Wish AOC the best, and this is the best for him

    I was convinced at least one of Goldwire, Baker, AOC, Moore, or Hurt wouldn't be in a Duke jersey next year. AOC makes the most sense as the "odd man out". He's talented by inconsistent. His ability to read the game is strong but sometimes has execution problems.

    I think this makes a ton of sense for AOC. Transfer to another strong program, sit out a year, work on bulking up and your shot, come back as a senior with a much stronger game. I assume the NBA isn't the end goal; he should know that. But playing overseas professionally is still in the works, and having a really strong senior year would allow him to do that. He's wasn't going to have a strong senior year at Duke with the more talented wing talent we have available.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

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